Did the Ultramarines lose at Calth?

[pingo]

That Collected Vision description is cool and all (not interesting IMHO, but fine as far as fluff goes), but it doesn't seem to lend itself well to novelization. Perhaps that's why they reworked it.

[Billuriye]

Rationalizations for fanboy ragings are getting old.

[Legatus]

I am not sure having the outcome of a global campaign be decided by a single decisive engagement instead of by an orbital and planetary struggle was the best way to go. Or that it was necessary to be able to write a good novel sized story about it. It's definitely an "easy" solution. It probably had far more advantages for the person writing the story, as opposed to the people reading it.

[Captain Idaho]

Fiction changes/evolves, especially in 40K. If you can't get on with it then you'll just have to stick to reading older sources and ignore the new stuff.

 

Personally I'm embracing the new back ground information and taking losses in it's stride. There is virtue in how you handle defeat.

[Gaius Atticus]

While I'm not a fan of our more recent "they can never be an Ultramarine" Matthew Ward style fluff.

I think you are. Otherwise you wouldn't have this rant about "why my RG ain't Chuck Norris and why his legion ain't the main cast of Expendables 2?".

Any fluff new or old describes the Primarchs as miles above their brother space marines in terms of ability and skill. That has nothing to do with Matt Ward's "every other Chapter can't be good" fluff.

 

Also if you haven't appeared to read my posts. I am complaining because the Ultramarines are supposed to show great tactical awareness at Calth and this is clearly non-existant in KNF. At no point did I say "I want the Ultramarines to be in the Expendables 2". All I wanted in KNF was an extended version of the story of Calth, and instead I got some new story that is only similar in name only.

[Morollan]

Here is what the Ultramarines/Guilliman had done according to the Collected Visions book (since apparently very few people have read it):

"Guilliman's first priority was to stabilise the Ultramarines' situation. It was very clear that a mortal blow had been struck against his Legion. It would require all of his strategic and tactical brilliance to rescue it from annihilation.

Guilliman began to organise a series of hit and run counterattacks with the few ships able to operate. This was only possible because of the extraordinary discipline and training of the Ultramarines commanders and crews. The enemy fleet was over-confident and lacked cohesion. After each attack the loyal ships scattered and regrouped far from the traitor fleet. Even so, the loyalists faced a foe that outnumbered and outgunned them. Any losses weighed heavily against the Ultramarines whilst the traitors appeared to have an endless supply of fresh vessels. But Roboute would not surrender; the traitors would pay in blood for their cowardly aggression.

Even as he directed his crippled fleet, Guilliman was also sending orders planetside to his beleagured troops on the ground. The traitors had not counted on two things. The first was the unbreakable fighting spirit and tenacity of the Ultramarines, who simply refused to give in to their desparate situation. After the initial wave of attacks, the loyal Space Marines were now dug into strongly defended positions, and from these they could not be dislodged. The second factor overlooked by Lorgar's forces was the brilliance of Guilliman's command. Each and every pocked of resistance had been assessed with lightning speed and a plan formulated to increase the success of its defence against the traitors. Clear, concise orders were being broadcast to the defenders and the Ultramarines began to fight back."

(The Horus Heresy - Collected Visions, p. 164)

 

As everyone who has read 'Know No Fear' is aware, that did not happen in the book. And it is not like it was merely not described, nothing of that actually happens during the battle. Guilliman leads no fleet attacks, and he has no contact with the various defense pockets on the planet. He is not fighting a space war against a numerically superior fleet all while coordinating the efforts of several isolated and outnumbered forces on the ground. No, he only has brief contact with Ventanus, and then orders him to attack that one installation. Guilliman himself leads a single boarding action, to take back the deus ex machina. The Collected Visions book described a titanic effort, demanding in both tactical skill and discipline of the force involved. The novel only describes two minor actions against "obvious" targets, requiring no particular skill or effort.

 

It is with that Collected Visions description in mind when I say that the novel removed any kind of accomplishment or achievement from the Ultramarines. The Collected Visions book describes a noteworthy accomplishment. The novel does not.

 

I spent about half an hour combing through Collected Visions last night looking for something else that you might be basing your complaints on but it appears that the section you quoted above is it. So you're seriously getting your knickers in a twist over a couple of paragraphs in a book that give a vague outline of the events with very little detail? KNF changes some stuff to make it more realistic and to make the Word Bearers appear as less moronic than they previously came across as.

 

I honestly do not think that the Ultras have come out of KNF badly at all. Even surviving such a massacre is a testament to their skill and resilience. And your complaints about only winning through a Deus Ex Machina are somewhat strange given the original fluff in which they only won through a different Deus Ex Machina (Guilliman being so frakking brilliant that he managed to destroy a vastly superior force led by another Primarch who had already caught him completely by surprise and blown up most of his fleet).

[Haranin]

What I find just funny about this is how many GW publications got into great detail that the Inquisition and the Imperium rewrite history, lather on the propaganda and outright lie.

 

There is no cannon, and nothing is 100% true. So the Ultramarines took it on the chin at Calth, but stayed in the fight because of the Admech, and then rewrote their history at some point before the 41st millennium? Not a big deal, so the Ultramarines tell their recruits a different story then what actually happened. We know the Imperium outright lies.

[greatcrusade08]

to be fair and impartial the Ultras werent saved by the admech, it was a joint effort that would have failed had the ultras not fought as hard and doggedly as they did.

it was thier intervention which allowed the admech to do thier thing, so in essence they helped save themselves.

 

i prefer the newer story as it works for both partes IMO and as a fan of both sides i find the outcome awesome.

the word bearers come out looking like the bad guys but a competent enemy and the ultras came out with thier heads held high.

 

i see no issuies what so ever.

 

that being said, some of the egos/attitudes in this thread bother the hell out of me.. some are a little too ultra fanboi, whilst others are dripping with anti ultra sentiment.

personal bias has no room here guys, im an avid ultras fan but even i can see a good story when presented with one.. and i like the character of the ultras as portrayed in KNF, alot better than i like how Ward characterised them.

it allows us to look at the ultra haters and explain that ward/dexes are like black and white comic books, whereas BL is where the colour is added.

 

its only a good thing IMO

[Legatus]

I spent about half an hour combing through Collected Visions last night looking for something else that you might be basing your complaints on but it appears that the section you quoted above is it.

Indeed, the Collected Visions' description of the Battle Of Calth is the reason why I am disappointed by the 'Know No Fear' description of the Battle of Calth. The other events of the Horus Heresy are not really important in this situation, are they?

 

 

So you're seriously getting your knickers in a twist over a couple of paragraphs in a book that give a vague outline of the events with very little detail? KNF changes some stuff to make it more realistic and to make the Word Bearers appear as less moronic than they previously came across as.

Collected Visions --> Titanic battle, Guilliman leads several fleet attacks while simultaneously directing isolated forces on the ground. The Ultramarines manage to drive back the Word Bearers.

 

Know No Fear --> Two minor actions. Guilliman orders Ventanus to attack a ground side installation, while he himself leads a boarding action against an orbital station. This allows the AdMech to activate the defense grid and drive off the Word Bearers.

 

I Don't even know why I have to explain this. Surely even the with the most cynical disregard for the Ultramarines one can see that a huge planetary battle being changed to two minor actions that merely allowed the Adeptus Mechanicus to drive away the enemy is a fundamental change?

[Morollan]

I Don't even know why I have to explain this. Surely even the with the most cynical disregard for the Ultramarines one can see that a huge planetary battle being changed to two minor actions that merely allowed the Adeptus Mechanicus to drive away the enemy is a fundamental change?

 

This is not about any sort of disregard for your beloved Ultramarines. I personally find them boring but I'm best described as ambivalent towards them in general, but I already said that I think they actually came out of KNF pretty well. I note that you completely ignored that comment though.

 

I honestly do not think that the Ultras have come out of KNF badly at all. Even surviving such a massacre is a testament to their skill and resilience. And your complaints about only winning through a Deus Ex Machina are somewhat strange given the original fluff in which they only won through a different Deus Ex Machina (Guilliman being so frakking brilliant that he managed to destroy a vastly superior force led by another Primarch who had already caught him completely by surprise and blown up most of his fleet).

[Marshal Rohr]

The novel only focuses on 48 hours of the battle or something like that. 2 actions within 48 hours is impressive considering the scale of the treachery. It took the US until early spring to attack Japan after Pearl Harbor.

[Legatus]

I note that you completely ignored that comment though.

If you insist:

 

I honestly do not think that the Ultras have come out of KNF badly at all. Even surviving such a massacre is a testament to their skill and resilience.

One of my complaints about that story was that we did not really see any particular traits of the Ultramarines at all. (There is some talk about "theoreticals" and "practicals", but that never amounts to anything important.) You could have replaced the Ultramarines in this book with any other Legion, and they would have performed the same. The "Legion X" is surprise attacked, and we see some individual members fight to survive while trying to figure out what is going on. Then the Primarch of "Legion X" leads an attack against the all important installation that would ensure victory. This could have been any Legion. They only fought to survive, and then the Primarch leads one attack.

 

 

And your complaints about only winning through a Deus Ex Machina are somewhat strange given the original fluff in which they only won through a different Deus Ex Machina (Guilliman being so frakking brilliant that he managed to destroy a vastly superior force led by another Primarch who had already caught him completely by surprise and blown up most of his fleet).

That is not really compareable, is it? In one instance, the Legion's Primarch is making a monumental effort, directing both a space battle and a ground battle. In the other instance, he only orders to attack two installations, one of which he leads himself. That installation then wins the battle for the entire planet. Sure, in the former instance the result of the battle can be attributed to one "factor" (even though the Ultramarines' exceptional discipline is mentioned here as well), but it is still a big effort, the war over a planet is being waged, and the outcome is a significant achievement. In the latter instance, where is the effort? Where is the achievement? A Primarch leading a single boarding action, against an installation that is not also defended by a Primarch. How is this a notable accomplishment? It was an obvious target, so not a particular gifted tactical decision, and it was a Primarch leading an attack against a Primarch-less force, so not exactly insurmountable odds against them either. There is no huge war fought over dominance over the planet. There are other Ultramarine forces fighting on the ground, but they are just fighting for their personal survival. There is no global coordinated effort to fight back against the invaders. 'Know No Fear' does not give us a world wide struggle, no huge war. We only get two company level actions that decide the entire campaign, making it a very shallow event. In the 'Collected Visions' descriptions it had been a global war, fought hard both in space and on the ground. It is so much more grand than the events described in the novel.

[Marshal Rohr]

The novel doesn't decide the war, since the Underwar is supposed to be the real battle and isn't showcased at all.

[Morollan]

One of my complaints about that story was that we did not really see any particular traits of the Ultramarines at all. (There is some talk about "theoreticals" and "practicals", but that never amounts to anything important.) You could have replaced the Ultramarines in this book with any other Legion, and they would have performed the same. The "Legion X" is surprise attacked, and we see some individual members fight to survive while trying to figure out what is going on. Then the Primarch of "Legion X" leads an attack against the all important installation that would ensure victory. This could have been any Legion. They only fought to survive, and then the Primarch leads one attack.

 

Is there some particular reason why the Ultramarines should be any better in this situation than Legion X?

 

 

That is not really compareable, is it? In one instance, the Legion's Primarch is making a monumental effort, directing both a space battle and a ground battle. In the other instance, he only orders to attack two installations, one of which he leads himself. That installation then wins the battle for the entire planet. Sure, in the former instance the result of the battle can be attributed to one "factor" (even though the Ultramarines' exceptional discipline is mentioned here as well), but it is still a big effort, the war over a planet is being waged, and the outcome is a significant achievement. In the latter instance, where is the effort? Where is the achievement? A Primarch leading a single boarding action, against an installation that is not also defended by a Primarch. How is this a notable accomplishment? It was an obvious target, so not a particular gifted tactical decision, and it was a Primarch leading an attack against a Primarch-less force, so not exactly insurmountable odds against them either. There is no huge war fought over dominance over the planet. There are other Ultramarine forces fighting on the ground, but they are just fighting for their personal survival. There is no global coordinated effort to fight back against the invaders. 'Know No Fear' does not give us a world wide struggle, no huge war. We only get two company level actions that decide the entire campaign, making it a very shallow event. In the 'Collected Visions' descriptions it had been a global war, fought hard both in space and on the ground. It is so much more grand than the events described in the novel.

 

Why is the previous fluff not comparable as a deus ex machina? In the original version the Ultras only survived because Supersmurf was on their side and Lex Lorgar forgot the Kryptonite.

[Haranin]

Who is to say this is the last battle of Calth or that it is really over? There could be more fighting that is a continuation of the start, or a second round.

[Count Orlok]

The battle mark for Calth is still running at the end of the book, so it is possible that we will get some more at some point. While, yes, it is a symbolic literary device to tie M30 and M41 closer together (and give the Ultramarines some more depth by giving them the Word Bearers as an arch enemy for the game), it does allow scope for short stories and audio books or plays set elsewhere on Calth before, during or after 'Know No Fear'.

[Student Of Dorn]

One of my complaints about that story was that we did not really see any particular traits of the Ultramarines at all. (There is some talk about "theoreticals" and "practicals", but that never amounts to anything important.) You could have replaced the Ultramarines in this book with any other Legion, and they would have performed the same. The "Legion X" is surprise attacked, and we see some individual members fight to survive while trying to figure out what is going on. Then the Primarch of "Legion X" leads an attack against the all important installation that would ensure victory. This could have been any Legion. They only fought to survive, and then the Primarch leads one attack.

 

Maybe this has something to do with the fact that the UM doesn't have any specialized combat style, they are not sneaky, aggressive, psykers or anything like that, that makes other Legions stand out.

They are often called out at being the best at organizing, governing and so on. Their combat is more like jack of all trades master of none.

So how would you show that this is the Ultramarines fighting and not "Legion X" if they don't have any combat style to show this??

[Legatus]

The novel doesn't decide the war, since the Underwar is supposed to be the real battle and isn't showcased at all.

Who is to say this is the last battle of Calth or that it is really over? There could be more fighting that is a continuation of the start, or a second round.

Nah, the "Battle for Calth" is officially over once the AdMech regains control over the defense grid. The Word Bearers leave, their work being completed. The Ultramarines leave, for the poisoned sun of Calth is about to start a hazardous radiation cycle. Both sides have forces left on the ground they are unable to evacuate. And those remnant forces proceed to engage in an underground war for the following years. But the "Battle for Calth" is concluded. Both the Word Bearers and the Ultramarines are officially leaving the world for the time being.

 

 

Is there some particular reason why the Ultramarines should be any better in this situation than Legion X?

There are two particular reasons, actually. The first is that the previous sources had indeed attributed the Ultramarines' "victory" in part to their own doctrines, not only mentioning that the Word Bearers had discounted their fighting spirit but also that only the high discipline of the Ultramarine forces allowed Guilliman to effectively operate with a small force that had just been shocked and scattered by a devastating surprise attack. So I don't think it would have been unreasonable to expect a novel about this battle to expand upon those factors.

The other reason is that this was promised to be about a Loyal legion for a change. Certainly we could expect to see the peculiarities and distinct traits of said Legion explained? I think Abnett gave the unique traits of the Alpha Legion and the Space Wolves more thought than those of the Ultramarines. But then again, seeing how it turned out for those two, perhaps I should be glad that he did not. (I could have done with less rambling Ultramarines and Primarch though.)

 

 

Why is the previous fluff not comparable as a deus ex machina? In the original version the Ultras only survived because Supersmurf was on their side and Lex Lorgar forgot the Kryptonite.

Because this is one of the eighteen super human Primarchs, and the previous descriptions of the Battle for Calth had already attributed him with waging a successful war. A commander who is well known and who is fighting during a drawn out war from start to finish is not a "deus ex machina". A single device that, once obtained, grants victory over a world wide campaign is. James Bond is not a "deus ex machina" when he stops an international crime ploy all on his own. His decoder watch that single-handedly scrambles the villain's nuclear launch sequence is.

 

But then, though his actions are highly praised, Guilliman was not "single-handedly" winning the battle at Calth. Captain Ventanus is mentioned as a crucial commander in both the Word bearers Index Astartes as well as the Collected Visions account. Both accounts also mention the determination and training of the Ultramarines. It is common that important military victories are attributed to the overall commander. In this case that commander happens to be one of a selected few super human individuals, who had previously been known as one of the most successful commanders of a two hundred year campaign, so attributing the victory to his efforts is even more justified than it would be with any other commander in history.

[Legatus]

Maybe this has something to do with the fact that the UM doesn't have any specialized combat style, they are not sneaky, aggressive, psykers or anything like that, that makes other Legions stand out.

They are often called out at being the best at organizing, governing and so on. Their combat is more like jack of all trades master of none.

So how would you show that this is the Ultramarines fighting and not "Legion X" if they don't have any combat style to show this??

I do think that it would have been possible to highlight the doctrines of the Ultramarines more. The Ultramarines are usually characterised as a very disciplined force, with a strict military organisation and an almost scientific approach to strategy and tactics. The Deathwatch RPG grants them a bonus to "unit cohesion", and both the Collected Visions account of the Battle for Calth and the short story 'Rules of Engagement' highlight an aptitude in that direction.

 

In the Collected Visions account, Guilliman starts to rally and organise the scattered and beleagured pockets of resistance on the ground. In 'Rules of Engagement' the scattered and seemingly disjointed Ultramarine forces suddenly start to link up and coordinate attacks against the individual World Eaters forces that had been drawn apart to pursue the seemingly routed Ultramarine forces.

To be able to co-ordinate the efforts of several individual pockets of resistance and manage to counter a cohesive attacking force such as the Word Bearers, after the Ultramarines had just been shocked by a treacherous attack, that would be some feat of a disciplined and well trained professional force. Other Legions would have fought with just as much determination and spirit in such a situation, but few would have been able to rally and co-ordinate the efforts of the scattered detachments as quickly and efficiently.

[Gaius Atticus]

This is not about any sort of disregard for your beloved Ultramarines. I personally find them boring but I'm best described as ambivalent towards them in general, but I already said that I think they actually came out of KNF pretty well. I note that you completely ignored that comment though.

In a way the Ultramarines are supposed to be boring. While the other Legions all have wacky mutations or "unique" waysof dealing with fighting to the point that every legion bar the UMs are the most shootiest/angriest/stealthiest/ferocious etc..

 

The UMs are supposed to be the quiet professionals who get on with the job at hand and stick to their perfected training.

 

In KNF there's really no examples showcasing this. As Legatus said that could have been any legion in the UM role and the story still would have worked.

[pingo]

In the original version the Ultras only survived because Supersmurf was on their side and Lex Lorgar forgot the Kryptonite.

Classic :)

 

--

 

My 2 cents.

 

All works produce a dichotomy between those that like it and those that don't. Neither side is right and neither side is wrong. No one is really contesting that there were no changes, but obviously some are going to like them and others will not. That's to be expected.

 

No amount of debating will ever resolve that.

 

I like the original collected visions version. Cool fluff.

 

I like Abnett's imagining of the battle. Cool book.

 

If I stand back from it, I find that as cool as the Collected Visions description is, I just don't see how it would make for a good novel. There's several reasons:

 

1) Entertainment. Sure, Ultras are renowned for organization and all that, but how would Abnett write mass organization and logistics of an army in a way that would be interesting and entertaining?

2) Scale. The Collected Visions description is quite short, but contains a conflict that is absolutely vast in scale. Abnett only has 400-odd pages to work with. Also, doing the battle as described would involve so many conflicts, locations, characters, situations, etc. that it would be too hard for the author to write and the reader to follow.

3) Coherency. The Collected Visions description appears (correct me if I'm wrong) to tell us nothing of the motivation of the Word Bearers, why they would engage in what sounds like a straight-up fight, how the battle began, or any details that would be necessary to make the novel hang together.

 

I can well understand why the battle was re-imagined for the the novel. Alan Merritt approved it, so it went ahead, and what he says goes ;)

 

I can understand why some might not like a change. But I don't think taking it personally is healthy!

 

--

 

With regards to the original question (which I believe was asked in 1875 via telegraph), Abnett set it up so that there is just no simple answer to that question. He wouldn't do it any other way.

[Brannick]

Did Dan Abnett (or was it Graham McNeill) recently say that KNF was just the first book of a number that will feature the Battle of Calth and the ongoing attacks in Ultramar? I have it in my head that Dan is due to be or is writing a second Ultramarine based HH novel to show how things escalated after KNF.

[Captain Idaho]

Ultramarines having no character as they are the proffessionals is so wrong and a common misconception. Being proffessional doesn't preclude character. I take it you've never met anyone from or served in the military? There are plenty of military personel who have character but when it comes to the nitty gritty a change comes over them and they do the job comsumately and proffessionally.

 

The Ultramarines have character beyond just following a tactical doctrine to acheive victory. They have concepts of pride, glory and shame. They believe in a greater purpose than just fighting until death. They are from an industrious, self sufficient, warrior peoples who can match just about any other warrior peoples in the universe with a sword. All this wrapped in a greek and roman flavour.

 

The only thing I missed from Know No Fear was the Greco-Roman emphasis, but I did't really miss it, rather it was noticably absent. I think it didn't need reinforcing though, since the Ultramarines weren't in political situations so much so it wasn't necessary.

 

The book was amazing.

 

@ Legatus: Why did the battle end at the end of the book? The battle for Calth had not ended just because the Word Bearers fleet was defeated and objectives were achieved and from what I read of the battle in the Index Astartes articles, the battle didn't end until after the sun's irradiated death throes killed off the planet's surface.

[Legatus]

Did Dan Abnett (or was it Graham McNeill) recently say that KNF was just the first book of a number that will feature the Battle of Calth and the ongoing attacks in Ultramar? I have it in my head that Dan is due to be or is writing a second Ultramarine based HH novel to show how things escalated after KNF.

There is more going on in Ultramar, but it is not directly related to the Battle for Calth. Lorgar and I think Angron are around there somewhere, pursuing other plans while Kor Phaeron had been tasked with attacking Calth. But I don't know, maybe Dan Abnett really plans to write a novel about the underground war on Calth. But he might have referred to the other events in Ultramar.

 

 

@ Legatus: Why did the battle end at the end of the book? The battle for Calth had not ended just because the Word Bearers fleet was defeated and objectives were achieved and from what I read of the battle in the Index Astartes articles, the battle didn't end until after the sun's irradiated death throes killed off the planet's surface.

That's what happens at the end of 'Know No Fear'. In the short chapter on page 401 (in my printing), [mark: 23.43.16], the Ultramarines are leaving the system before the solar storm of the contaminated sun can sweep them away. They were unable to evacuate everyone, and citizens as well as Ultramarine forces are left behind on the surface. The forces that remained on the surface fled to the underground arcologies to survive the solar event.

[BrotherHostower]

If you look, Calth is expanded (or was expanded before KNF) in one of the Garro audio dramas which had hordes of demons etc yadda like the ultra-fans are saying is missing from KNF. Think it's the first Garro one, Oath of Moment?