Did the Ultramarines lose at Calth?

[Brannick]

Hi Legatus.

 

I had a little trawl around internetland to see if I was dreaming up the Dan Abnett 'sequel' to Know No Fear and I found THIS where it is implied, around the 13 minute mark, that Dan is writing an addition. Pretty sure this isn't where I heard this 'rumour' though, but it's the one I could find at present B)

 

Cheers

[mactire]

hi all

 

just finished reading the book and cant understand why its not liked. yes the word bearers won from their point of view (twin sacrifices to open the warp storm and revenge attack on u/marines) but overall for the u/marines it comes across as a victory but at a terrible cost. i cant understand why people have a problem with the fleshing out of heresy and the legions, the old versions described the heresy and its events in short paragraphs that were just an overveiw of a huge event, the black library are doing a great job (imho) of bring this whole "history" to life.

i will admit that all of the books so far have portrayed the legions and the the primarchs (even big e) differently to what people may have pictured them in their own minds but this only to be expected, science fiction writing, even comic books/graphic novels, have moved on to a must more realistic, gritty and dark plane. nobody anymore buys into the old Dan Dare "me all good, you all bad" storylines anymore and while some people may find this annoying or upsetting overall this is the story BL/GW want to tell so we must accept it as canon.

 

this is just my way of looking at it im not trying to pick a fight or criticise anyone,but feel free to disagree if you like.

[pingo]

this is just my way of looking at it im not trying to pick a fight or criticise anyone,but feel free to disagree if you like.

Brace yourself :unsure:

 

For what it's worth I agree with you. Changes such as we have seen are inevitable I suppose when such brief and undetailed paragraphs of fluff are expanded into a series of novels. Also authors will likely want to put their own stamp on things and even Alan Merritt may have changed his view on something regarding the Heresy so long after it was first fleshed out (especially if an author presents an idea that he thinks is better than what was there before: Alpharius and Omegon, an idea of Abnett's, being the prime example).

[Legatus]

i cant understand why people have a problem with the fleshing out of heresy and the legions

I have a problem with changing the Heresy and the Legions. People keep saying that the previous Codex fluff was written by game designers and thus might not really work that well in conjunction with all the other events, and that the "professional" BL writers are changing the story to make it work as a novelization. But I'm not buying it. I'm not buying that the Alpha Legion's motivation and Primarch had to be changed in order to work, or to work better. I'm not buying that the Space Wolves' demeanor had to be changed (terrifying, instead of people's heroes) and that they had to be elevated to the status of "Emperor's Executioners". I don't buy that the Raven Guard rebuilding had to be changed from Corax experimenting with cloning to Corax getting the Emperor's Primarch gene-seed equipment. I don't buy that the Ultramarines' actions during the Battle for Calth had to be reduced from a global campaign to two minor actions. None of those changes was required to "make it work" or to improve the quality of the story. As far as I can see, they are simply decisions that the author thought were cool (inventing a new "twin primarch" twist because readers will lap up such revelations, or changing the Space Wolves which the author previously was not a big fan of) or decisions to make the author's work easier (describing two actions over the back drop of an undirected global struggle is much muuuch simpler than describing an actively fought global battle).

 

Even with changes where I can see a rational explanation (such as the Legions being changed from ten thousand to a hundred thousand men, in order to make the Great Crusade and the Heresy feel grander) I still don't feel that they were "necessary", and that the story could still have been told quite well with the older "facts" left intact. But then there are the completely arbitrary changes such as Ultramar consisting of 500 worlds, Alpharius having a twin, the Word Bearers not really intending to wipe out the Ultramarines at all, etc.

 

None of the retcons was "necessary" to make the story work, or to improve it. That the Horus Heresy would be completely rewritten in this manner was not at all an inevitable byproduct of a greater detailing and fleshing out of the events. The Horus Heresy story could have been written and expanded in adherance to the previously published stories. But the authors instead chose to write the story how they preferred to write it.

[Captain Idaho]

Thing is Legatus, if you don't agree with officially sanction changes to back ground material it matters absolutely not to the discussion. If someone asks a generic question like posted here, you're free to say your opinion but you can't agrue with everyone else's opinion based upon the fact you don't like the source they've used because it doesn't fit your vision of the story.

 

Like it or not, the changes are relevant no matter how hard you try and argue with them.

 

If you want meaningful discussion about the background before the changes then feel free to go ahead and make a topic to discuss the topic with others, but I think you'll be hard pressed to find many people who won't bring up the new information but care enough to discuss the old, outdated back ground material.

 

Embrace change or not, it's your call and no-one can take that away from you, but you won't "win" any arguments with people who have embraced the change if you haven't.

[Antarius]

For what it's worth, I feel that on the one hand the story will inevitably change when expanded into novels. On the other hand I also feel that some of the writers (especially Abnett, but especially Abnett) could stand to be kept on a shorter leash.

 

I get your annoyance Legatus. I don't necessarily agree with it but I do get it. To me it's like when some comic or book you like is turned into a film; there are the changes you can see why they made, whether you like them or not (i.e. cutting Tom Bombadil out of the LOTR movie) and then there is the stuff you can't see any reason whatsoever for and don't like (like the character assassination job done on Faramir in the LOTR).

 

In any case, I think there's very little to be said for the viewpoint that the Word Bearers weren't trying to wipe out the Ultramarines at Calth and that they didn't give a good showing but ultimately failed. I mean of course they were -what's the alternative, really?

Their other objectives may have made the outcome acceptable to them, but don't tell me they weren't trying to kill the Ultramarines and considered that their goal.

 

I guess KNF can be read to say that killing the Ultramarines off weren't the primary objective but I'm not convinced it's the right reading at all. The basis for it would have to be p.397-398 as I see it?

The thing is though, that's Erebus' internal monologue and not the gospel truth. Erebus states that his personal objectives, as given by Lorgar, are complete.

That may well be true, but Erebus is not the Word Bearer Legion and he wasn't in charge of the whole operation at Calth, as far as I can tell. Kor Phaeron's objectives certainly doesn't seem like they were met (unless "fail to kill Guilliman and get a whole punched in your chest" were on his to do list from Lorgar).

 

Moreover, Erebus is actually convinced (or perhaps trying to convince himself -I personally think it reads a lot that way) that the Ultramarines are finished -that "They will never more be a force to be reckoned with." I think that's a large part of why he feels the objectives were met.

Now if that had been true, I think Calth would've been a victory for the Word Bearers. 10.000 years on though, that wasn't really how it went down.

 

 

As it stands, I think Guilliman could've been portrayed better, I think there could've been a bit more fleshing out of the Ultramarines and yeah, I think there are some problems with the pacing. However, I still think KNF does a good job of showing us that the Ultramarines are a Legion capable of rallying from anything -even the most treacherous and devastating blow conceivable- which has always been what their victory at Calth was about to these eyes.

While their tactical and strategical acumen could've been shown off more, I don't think it's true that any legion would've done the same (any codex chapter perhaps, but that is another story).

[Legatus]

Thing is Legatus, if you don't agree with officially sanction changes to back ground material it matters absolutely not to the discussion.

I was replying to a question, though. (Or rather, a delieberate admittance of ignorance.)

[Captain Idaho]

It didn't read that way.

 

Much of your objections with the book are based upon the changes so I don't think you really were answering a question.

 

Your main argument is you don't like the change from the Ultramarines' only engagment in the Heresy being a victory to a defeat, right? Well you could look at that way, or you could look at it how it's supposed to be seem - a story where you don't know what's going to happen and eagerly await the next instalment of the series to see what happens with the Ultramarines next.

 

This happened with Rules of Engagement; everyone made assumptions on the story based upon what the Codex books told them. It's not like that, you don't read the Heresy novels with all it's changes and just draw the line in the sand and say "right that's it, no more changes are coming so how does this marry with Codex material" when there's more books coming.

 

Hell even when it is the last book, it's fairly clear from the way they're written that the Codex and Rulebook versions of events are brief overviews and from the perspective of historical accounts, whilst the actual events are described in detail and "fact" in the Black Library publications. Obviously there are exceptions and cross overs but then that's down to reading comphrension on a story by story basis.

 

Besides, AD-B confirmed more was coming.

[pingo]

Legatus, is it fair to say that a large part of the reason why you prefer the 'old' Collected Vision-type fluff over the 'new' BL fluff is because the former came before the latter and established something? Something you maybe even consider canon?

 

I only ask as it seems unlikely (though it may happen to be true) that you prefer all the old HH fluff over all the new and/or changed BL HH fluff based solely on the content rather than anything to do with the temporal order. This is the impression I have from reading your posts, so apologies if I have mischaracterised you: such is not my intent.

 

Presumably, you reject the very very old Rogue Trader era fluff? You know the old 'Imperial Guard Commander, Leman Russ', the half-human half-eldar Chief Librarian of the non-First Founding Ultramarines, and all that crazy stuff!

 

I will assume that you do for the purposes of my next question/point.

 

If you reject the Rogue Trader fluff, hold as canon the 'post-second-edition' fluff (to use a very broad term), but reject the recent BL fluff, my question is this: why is your canon or preferred era of fluff any more valid than someone else's canon or preferred era of fluff?

 

I totally get that that you may prefer one lot of fluff to another, and I am sure most others on here respect that. But I don't get why you appear to be unable, or unwilling, to accept that others prefer the new BL HH fluff, or that the writers themselves decided, for whatever reasons, that they wanted to tell the story of the HH in a way that they felt respects the old fluff but is not ham-stringed by it. Of course you don't have to like it, but you don't have to like anything. If all this fuss is just over personal preferences (which it surely is ...) then it's all a bit silly really.

[Legatus]

It would be one thing if the discussion was about what everyone thought about the "new" Battle for Calth story. But a lot of times my posts are in reply to arguments that what we got was an "expanded" or "fleshed out" version of the story. I will then point out that that is not what we got. What we got was a very different story. I would not quote the Collected Visions account just to present everyone with what I though was the better story, I quote the Collected Visions account to prove that it was indeed very different from the story in 'Know No Fear'.

 

But, yeah, that the Ultramarines essentially got their victory taken away does bother me quite a bit. I was actually a bit excited before the novel was released, because Abnett had made it sound like this novel would see a loyal Legion kick a traitor Legion butt. And the two preview chapters had been promising. But when there is excitement, there often is disappointment. Disappointment that any sense of achievement for the Ultramarines had been removed. Disappointment that several chapters of the book were "wasted" on inconsequential descriptions of a deactivated Dreadnought and an immortal Guardsman that never figured into the rest of the novel at all. Disappointment that the Ultramarines and even Guilliman were depicted cussing and rambling and disrespecting duty and authority.

 

A D-B did hint that the Ultramarines would actually get to do something cool during the further progression of the Heresy. Maybe in hindsight, when we see all the events of the Heresy, and all the new campaigns the Ultramarines were involved in, maybe then it will no longer matter that they "lost" on Calth. But right now, right now what we have is a novel about the Ultramarines' one major action of the Heresy, retconning it from an Ultramarines victory to a Word Bearers victory.

[Captain Idaho]

So? The Ultramarines having a single description in a series of books and it relating to a defeat is not a personal attack on you or anyone else.

 

There is virtue to be earnt even in defeat. Regardless, the portrayal of the Ultramarines in the story can still be enjoyable and flattering.

 

Except you don't like them having personalities either, of course! :)

[Gree]

No, he only has brief contact with Ventanus, and then orders him to attack that one installation. Guilliman himself leads a single boarding action, to take back the deus ex machina. The Collected Visions book described a titanic effort, demanding in both tactical skill and discipline of the force involved. The novel only describes two minor actions against "obvious" targets, requiring no particular skill or effort.

 

Again, I have to point out that the defense grid is not a dues ex machina. I really don't know why you keep on bringing that up.

[Legatus]

It may not fit the profile in that the defense grid was not just brought up for the first time shortly before the conclusion of the Battle for Calth. But it was in a way unexpected that the Battle would be concluded that quickly and without any real effort by the Ultramarines. I mean, we did have the previous accounts of the battle, where a global struggle is described, with Guilliman leading several space raids and sending orders to the forces on the ground. In the novel we get build up, build up, and more build up, and then Guilliman finally manages to make contact with a unit on the ground, and finally starts to take action and lead an attack. And then the Battle is over. Taking the defense grind ends the Battle entirely.

[pingo]

It's almost a MacGuffin I guess. But no, not really a Deus ex machina.

[Unintentional Batman]

As far as I can see, they are simply decisions that the author thought were cool (inventing a new "twin primarch" twist because readers will lap up such revelations, or changing the Space Wolves which the author previously was not a big fan of)

 

And yet you buy the fact that Leman Russ is not an imperial commander no more, but a "primarch". And inventing 20 (18) new "primarchs" is somehow magically okay in your book, but it's a crime to "invent" a "twin".

 

INDEED, says I :)

[Gree]

It may not fit the profile in that the defense grid was not just brought up for the first time shortly before the conclusion of the Battle for Calth. But it was in a way unexpected that the Battle would be concluded that quickly and without any real effort by the Ultramarines. I mean, we did have the previous accounts of the battle, where a global struggle is described, with Guilliman leading several space raids and sending orders to the forces on the ground. In the novel we get build up, build up, and more build up, and then Guilliman finally manages to make contact with a unit on the ground, and finally starts to take action and lead an attack. And then the Battle is over. Taking the defense grind ends the Battle entirely.

 

It had already been the stated intent of the characters to take control of the defense grids and use it against the Word Bearers. A dues ex machine is a story element introduced out of nowhere without any kind of foreshadowing to solve a problem. The defense grid was introduced early on and repeatedly referenced by various characters. Near the end it became the clear plan to take ahold of it and use it against the Word Bearers. It is not a deus ex machina, narratively speaking.

[Haranin]

Check out the BL today. New cover. Calth isn't over.

[Captain Idaho]

The defence grid was used to smash the Ultramarines first, so really the whole battle was a battle against time rather than cheesey turn around at the last minute. The Ultramarines and Word Bearers were both going against the clock; one to eliminate the other before they organised a credible come back, whilst the other to turn a weapon system away from scouring the remainder of them existance.

[Olis]

Shouldn't the Defence Grid be categorised as a Chekov's Gun (or maybe a Chekov's Boomerang)? :)

 

Oh, while I'm here, the numbers of the Ultramarines (after the events in KNF), by my reckoning, are not as severely diminished as one or two of our brothers point out. Yes, they took a beating but I make Legion strength post-KNF somewhere between 70,000ish to 100,000 (give or take - remember the 50,000 offworld in other parts of Ultramar). That's a significant reduction in numbers in anyone's book but they aren't crippled. Not by a long way, even if you take the lower number of my estimate.

[Gree]

i cant understand why people have a problem with the fleshing out of heresy and the legions

I have a problem with changing the Heresy and the Legions. People keep saying that the previous Codex fluff was written by game designers and thus might not really work that well in conjunction with all the other events, and that the "professional" BL writers are changing the story to make it work as a novelization. But I'm not buying it. I'm not buying that the Alpha Legion's motivation and Primarch had to be changed in order to work, or to work better. I'm not buying that the Space Wolves' demeanor had to be changed (terrifying, instead of people's heroes) and that they had to be elevated to the status of "Emperor's Executioners". I don't buy that the Raven Guard rebuilding had to be changed from Corax experimenting with cloning to Corax getting the Emperor's Primarch gene-seed equipment. I don't buy that the Ultramarines' actions during the Battle for Calth had to be reduced from a global campaign to two minor actions. None of those changes was required to "make it work" or to improve the quality of the story. As far as I can see, they are simply decisions that the author thought were cool (inventing a new "twin primarch" twist because readers will lap up such revelations, or changing the Space Wolves which the author previously was not a big fan of) or decisions to make the author's work easier (describing two actions over the back drop of an undirected global struggle is much muuuch simpler than describing an actively fought global battle).

 

Even with changes where I can see a rational explanation (such as the Legions being changed from ten thousand to a hundred thousand men, in order to make the Great Crusade and the Heresy feel grander) I still don't feel that they were "necessary", and that the story could still have been told quite well with the older "facts" left intact. But then there are the completely arbitrary changes such as Ultramar consisting of 500 worlds, Alpharius having a twin, the Word Bearers not really intending to wipe out the Ultramarines at all, etc.

 

None of the retcons was "necessary" to make the story work, or to improve it. That the Horus Heresy would be completely rewritten in this manner was not at all an inevitable byproduct of a greater detailing and fleshing out of the events. The Horus Heresy story could have been written and expanded in adherance to the previously published stories. But the authors instead chose to write the story how they preferred to write it.

 

I actually took the chance to email one of the actual editors at Black Library and I got this in response. Take it how you wish:

 

"I have watched this... debate with some amusement because many of the arguments seem to be based upon fundamentally flawed assumptions.

 

I'm not going to get drawn into the argument itself, but I do want to clarify a couple of points that keep coming up.

 

Firstly, nothing in the Horus Heresy series is a "retcon". That hideous abbreviation only defines one quite narrow type of change to a story, namely the way in previously established facts are altered, and said to have always been as they now are.

 

If a Warhammer 40,000 novel set n 999.M41 said that Ultramar was 500 worlds strong and had always been so, that would be a retcon. Revealing that Ultramar was 500 worlds strong in the previously unexplored period at the end of the Great Crusade is not a retcon - it's simply revealing new details about the history of the Imperium. See also Alpharius/Omegon, Fulgrim and the daemon, Imperium Secundus...

 

Horus Heresy: Collected Visions and Index Astartes could only cover the broad strokes of the Horus Heresy. They are, depending on your viewpoint, historical sources and/or biased accounts of the conflict at a meta-level. The Horus Heresy novel series tells us the full story behind those broad historical overviews.

 

The previously established info on Calth told us that the Word Bearers attacked the Ultramarines there. Different sources give varying accounts. All agree that despite being utterly unprepared for the treachery, the boys in blue eventually won, kicked the bad guys off Calth and went on to do other things. Know No Fear shows the first stage of that story. There is more to it - it says as much towards the end of the novel, where it mentions the underworld war. Has this been mentioned in detail before? No, because it's just a stage of what the broad historical overview calls the Battle of Calth.

 

No retcon, just filling in the gaps and telling the whole story. I can tell you that the BL editorial team wok very, very hard, alongside the authors and GW's IP manager, to make sure that the series remains true to published lore. But if we only use the sparse details in said lore, we won't tell very good stories."

[Captain Idaho]

So basically what I've been saying all along? ;)

[Legatus]

It is kind of a sad day for the hobby when representatives of the studio attempt to convince the audience that their retcons are not really retcons.

 

 

If a Warhammer 40,000 novel set n 999.M41 said that Ultramar was 500 worlds strong and had always been so, that would be a retcon. Revealing that Ultramar was 500 worlds strong in the previously unexplored period at the end of the Great Crusade is not a retcon - it's simply revealing new details about the history of the Imperium.

Except that sources explain that after the Horus Heresy the Ultramarines maintained close contact to the worlds they had close relations to throughout the Great Crusade, So that period is not quite as "unexplored" as far as the formation of Ultramar is concerned. (See for example the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, page 14, or the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, page 14.)

 

 

See also Alpharius/Omegon,

When every list of the original Legions, printed in various sources since 2nd Edition, names "Alpharius" as the Primarch of the Alpha Legion, and when every background description of the Alpha Legion states that their Primarch was Alpharius, then adding a second one constitutes a retcon. "Oh, it's just that nobody knew, and all the various sources not telling about it were ignorant of that fact" is not a particularly convincing argument that something is not a retcon.

 

 

Fulgrim and the daemon

Well, the Index Astartes article (which tells a different story) is indeed presented as "historical speculation" of what had happened to Fulgrim. That being said, it is poor form to come up with a completely new story that is very different from the previous one (which is what the Fulgrim/Daemon story is) and then declare that the previous sources were essentially telling bull. Even if they had intentionally been presented as speculation.

 

 

Imperium Secundus...

How do we know Guilliman did not write up the charta for a second Imperium during the Horus Heresy? Because prior to the Horus Heresy retcon the Ultramarines only learned about the Heresy near the very end, once Terra was already under attack, of course. Moving the attack on Calth to the beginning of the Heresy in itself is a major retcon, and so is everything the Ultramarines are then doing throughout the rest of the Heresy. (See for example the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, pages 12/13, or the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, page 13)

 

 

Horus Heresy: Collected Visions and Index Astartes could only cover the broad strokes of the Horus Heresy. They are, depending on your viewpoint, historical sources and/or biased accounts of the conflict at a meta-level. The Horus Heresy novel series tells us the full story behind those broad historical overviews.

In other words, what the previous sources told you was wrong and complete bull. Now we are telling what actually happened. Classy.

 

 

The previously established info on Calth told us that the Word Bearers attacked the Ultramarines there. Different sources give varying accounts.

Like how the Collected Visions account described how Guilliman led several fleet raids while also commanding the various defence pockets on the ground, and how 'Know No Fear' describes that that did not happen at all.

 

 

All agree that despite being utterly unprepared for the treachery, the boys in blue eventually won, kicked the bad guys off Calth and went on to do other things. Know No Fear shows the first stage of that story. There is more to it - it says as much towards the end of the novel, where it mentions the underworld war. Has this been mentioned in detail before? No, because it's just a stage of what the broad historical overview calls the Battle of Calth.

 

No retcon, just filling in the gaps and telling the whole story.

No retcon, moving it to the beginning of the Heresy, instead of having the Ultramarines learn about it only near the very end. Also not a retcon to remove all the actions Guilliman undertook according the Collected Visions account. And no retcon to remove Lorgar from the scene, who was previously said to be in command of the fleet. (Actually, that last bit was already a retcon from the WB Index Astartes, which had instead said that Lorgar was leading the rest of his Legion against Terra while Kor Phaeron was attacking Calth. Of course, in 'Know No Fear' Lorgar is neither attacking Terra nor Calth, so it is a retcon either way you see it.)

 

 

I can tell you that the BL editorial team wok very, very hard, alongside the authors and GW's IP manager, to make sure that the series remains true to published lore.

If you told me that they at least tried, then I would give you the benefit of the doubt and take your word for it. The thing is, though, that the final result does not really live up to that. Maybe they do work hard, and maybe they do know their stuff (even though the examples presented here are not encouraging), and maybe they are simply convinced by the writers in a lot of instances that changes to the story would be a notable improvement. But please don't try to tell us that changes to the story are not changes to the story.

[Bulwyf]

The reality with lore from GW is that you can pick and choose what to believe. The first official information going all the way back to Rogue Trader has been significantly changed from then until now. Heck one of my best friends was killed in service in Iraq five years ago and I still have the armies he left me: a Chaos Dwarf and a Squat army. Remember when early 40k had planets and characters named after pop singers and cake manufacturers? Konrad Curze ring a bell as a blatant rip off? Heart of Darkness anyone? Corax and the Raven Guard shouting "Never more?" Corax which means Raven? Or Ferrus Ironhands meaning Iron Ironhands? Come on now, if you want to a lore stickler to the utmost degree then so much after Rogue Trader has to be seen as retcon rubbish if you are that puritanical.

 

I don't like all the changes and I actually agree with Legatus that some of these changes are to me needless. The Alpha Legion and Space Wolves are glaring examples of changes I don't personally like. But as a discriminating fan I can either accept that as "lore" or simply regard it as I've heard some directors talk about Batman: you know what the core of Batman is but there's so much room to make all kinds of changes to it as long as the core remains the same.

 

Someone will link that article ADB wrote about "loose cannon" and he was spot on. There is simply no way one can selectively pick out one version of the fluff/lore and dogmatically insist it is the only one that "counts". The lore and fluff will continue to expand and evolve and you as the reader/fan can choose to accept it or not. But insisting your version of the lore is the only one that matters is simply short sighted.

[Gree]

Because this is one of the eighteen super human Primarchs, and the previous descriptions of the Battle for Calth had already attributed him with waging a successful war. A commander who is well known and who is fighting during a drawn out war from start to finish is not a "deus ex machina". A single device that, once obtained, grants victory over a world wide campaign is. James Bond is not a "deus ex machina" when he stops an international crime ploy all on his own. His decoder watch that single-handedly scrambles the villain's nuclear launch sequence is.

 

Oh, I missed this.

 

That is not what a deus ex machina is. A deus ex machina is a device intorudced out of nowhere without any explanation or forshadowing. You keep on using that word but I don't think you know what it means.

[Legatus]

It may not fit the profile in that the defense grid was not just brought up for the first time shortly before the conclusion of the Battle for Calth. But it was in a way unexpected that the Battle would be concluded that quickly and without any real effort by the Ultramarines. I mean, we did have the previous accounts of the battle, where a global struggle is described, with Guilliman leading several space raids and sending orders to the forces on the ground. In the novel we get build up, build up, and more build up, and then Guilliman finally manages to make contact with a unit on the ground, and finally starts to take action and lead an attack. And then the Battle is over. Taking the defense grind ends the Battle entirely.