Did the Ultramarines lose at Calth?

[pingo]

Legatus, your expression of your obsession with the 'One True Lore' is just dogma. It's kind of off-putting – sorry to say it.

 

I can't see any significant or important retcons in what you pointed out. It's just nitpicking to me.

 

One thing I don't get through all this is even if they are retcons, why are retcons necessarily bad? I guess one's view on the quality of a retcon is largely based on one's view on the quality of the outcome of that retcon. I happen to like the BL HH output, so I guess I just don't care about any retcons if they exist.

[Gree]

It may not fit the profile in that the defense grid was not just brought up for the first time shortly before the conclusion of the Battle for Calth. But it was in a way unexpected that the Battle would be concluded that quickly and without any real effort by the Ultramarines. I mean, we did have the previous accounts of the battle, where a global struggle is described, with Guilliman leading several space raids and sending orders to the forces on the ground. In the novel we get build up, build up, and more build up, and then Guilliman finally manages to make contact with a unit on the ground, and finally starts to take action and lead an attack. And then the Battle is over. Taking the defense grind ends the Battle entirely.

 

Yes and? I already told you. It's not a deus ex machina at all. In the context of the novel it is not unexpected at all. The weapons is repeatedly refrenced and clearly set up. If you are going to keep on using the ''deus ex machina'' use then I'm going to have to keep on pointing out that is a completely inaccurate use of the phrase.

[Legatus]

There may be a better term for it, but then this is a rather unique situation. It is a situation we were previously told was resolved through a drawn out global struggle. But instead of a drawn out global struggle, the situation is now resolved through the use of a single device that grants victory once employed. This somewhat fits the profile of a deus ex machina in that the sutiation is resolved abruptly through a contrived plot device. The plot device is not introduced unexpectedly just when it is applied, but it is in a way unexpected because we were expecting a drawn out battle, and not an abrupt conclusion.

 

In the cases of the "chekhov's gun deus ex machina" and the "built up deus ex machina" the contrived device is introduced earlier on in the story as well, but it still comes unexpected that the device would be used as the solution for the particular situation. In the case of 'Know No Fear', Guilliman has just made contact with the ground forces, and he is now leading his first attack. From the previous sources we expect that this is the beginning of a long and hard fought battle over the dominance over Calth. But instead, the capture of the defense grid ends the Battle for Calth entirely. Abruptly.

[Gree]

There may be a better term for it, but then this is a rather unique situation. It is a situation we were previously told was resolved through a drawn out global struggle. But instead of a drawn out global struggle, the situation is now resolved through the use of a single device that grants victory once employed. This somewhat fits the profile of a deus ex machina in that the sutiation is resolved abruptly through a contrived plot device. The plot device is not introduced unexpectedly just when it is applied, but it is in a way unexpected because we were expecting a drawn out battle, and not an abrupt conclusion.

 

In the cases of the "chekhov's gun deus ex machina" and the "built up deus ex machina" the contrived device is introduced earlier on in the story as well, but it still comes unexpected that the device would be used as the solution for the particular situation. In the case of 'Know No Fear', Guilliman has just made contact with the ground forces, and he is now leading his first attack. From the previous sources we expect that this is the beginning of a long and hard fought battle over the dominance over Calth. But instead, the capture of the defense grid ends the Battle for Calth entirely. Abruptly.

 

‘This isn’t atonement, Remus,’ Sullus replies. ‘I don’t feel sorry for myself. This wasn’t anybody’s fault, but we’re all going to end up paying whatever we can. Take the port, win the grid, kill their fleet. Remember my name while you’re doing it.’

 

Even before Guilliman leads the attack the plans of the Ultramarines are made clear and established.

[Wade Garrett]

Taking over the defense grid was not the end of the battle of Calth, anymore than Operation Overlord was the end of the invasion of Europe. As KNF ends there are huge numbers of Ultramarines and Word Bearers turtling into the planet because the sun is exploding, and Kor Phereon's flagship has just started "one of the most infamous naval battles in Imperial history" with what's left of the Ultramarine fleet.

 

 

LOW GOTHIC! CAN YOU NOT DECIPHER ITS MEANING, HERETIC?

[Legatus]

‘This isn’t atonement, Remus,’ Sullus replies. ‘I don’t feel sorry for myself. This wasn’t anybody’s fault, but we’re all going to end up paying whatever we can. Take the port, win the grid, kill their fleet. Remember my name while you’re doing it.’

 

Even before Guilliman leads the attack the plans of the Ultramarines are made clear and established.

Then I guess that is the point where the deus ex machina is revealed to be what it is, and not after they have taken and successfully applied it.

[Gree]

‘This isn’t atonement, Remus,’ Sullus replies. ‘I don’t feel sorry for myself. This wasn’t anybody’s fault, but we’re all going to end up paying whatever we can. Take the port, win the grid, kill their fleet. Remember my name while you’re doing it.’

 

Even before Guilliman leads the attack the plans of the Ultramarines are made clear and established.

Then I guess that is the point where the deus ex machina is revealed to be what it is, and not after they have taken and successfully applied it.

 

I give up. You could claim Guilliman is a woman and the Space Wolves are talking cats and I would't be able to dissuade you at all.

[pingo]

‘This isn’t atonement, Remus,’ Sullus replies. ‘I don’t feel sorry for myself. This wasn’t anybody’s fault, but we’re all going to end up paying whatever we can. Take the port, win the grid, kill their fleet. Remember my name while you’re doing it.’

 

Even before Guilliman leads the attack the plans of the Ultramarines are made clear and established.

Then I guess that is the point where the deus ex machina is revealed to be what it is, and not after they have taken and successfully applied it.

Dude, a foreshadowed deus ex machina is an oxymoron. No two ways about it.

[Captain Idaho]

Let's just drop the discussion about Deus Ex Machinca then, since you cannot reach consensus.

[pingo]

Let's just drop the discussion about Deus Ex Machinca then, since you cannot reach consensus.

There you go, showing up unannounced, solving all our problems :P

 

Anyway, with regards to the question, I'm not sure we will be able to assess it properly until the other books are out. We don't know enough about what the Word Bearers were wanting to do to see if they succeeded or the Ultras stopped them,

[vonny]

I actually think the Ultramarine's expertise is showcased very well in this book.

 

While suffering from a crippling first blow, every solitary group tries to stabilize their personal situation, gather information, share any information they gather with any other group they can find, and act as tactically viable with whatever information they possess.

Take the two guys on the surface, for example. They start out in the space port, try to recuperate whatever they can after the 'accident', learn that it wasn't an accident and there's traitors, destroy a lot, and eventually reestablish communications, defend their communication hub, and hold out against a numerically superior foe until reinforcements come, and eventually excecute an important part of the strategy that sees the first significant blow against the enemy.

As for those reinforcements, they use their superior logistic efforts to break away from even titans dogging their ambush site, manage to get two super-heavy tanks out, get some communication, and end up beig there in time to save the day. How is this not showcasing the Ultramarine's speciality?

 

The main problem that I have with abbnet is that he's a poor writer when it comes to space marines and focuses on other non-astartes too much.

I never got this. The Horus Heresy series isn't 'battles of the space marines'. It's 'battles and other events surrounding and during the horus heresy'. There's lots more forces fighting there than just space marines. There's lots of space marines, sure, but also imperial army, assasins, other imperial and non-imperial organisations, daemons, and as we've learned, even xenos intervention.

 

As for the OP's question: yes, and no.

They couldn't stop Erebus with the intel they had at the time, which caused the warp storms to start, and thus cut them out of the larger battle of the horus heresy for a while. Also, considering the nature of the attack, they suffered heavy losses before even being allowed to react.

However, they clearly bounced back from what seemed an unwinnable situation, through dogged determination and, as I explained above, the use of their legion's specialities. Their primarch survived, and not unimportantly, is in the know about the heresy and now hardened against the horror of fighting against the armies of his brothers. He already learned valuable lessons from these 48 first hours that will have an effect on his legion's battle doctrine for millenia to come.

They sent the traitors running, survived, and got better. I say that's a win (albeit at great cost). The Word Bearers, however, inflicted severe losses on their enemy, got them out of the fight for a while through the warp storms, and took a step on their road to... whatever their path is leading to with the chaos gods. The whole symbolism of the battle and all. That's a win too (albeit at great cost).

 

So... victory for both, but at great costs...

[Legatus]

I actually think the Ultramarine's expertise is showcased very well in this book.

The Legion is attacked unexpectedly out of nowhere. Their forces are scattered, they don't know what is going on, and communication between the scattered forces has broken down. Which of the Legions then wouldn't try to (1) figure out what is going on, and (2) establish contact with the other elements of their Legion? Those are the most basic measures anyone would take in such a situation.

[DarKnight]

I actually think the Ultramarine's expertise is showcased very well in this book.

The Legion is attacked unexpectedly out of nowhere. Their forces are scattered, they don't know what is going on, and communication between the scattered forces has broken down. Which of the Legions then wouldn't try to (1) figure out what is going on, and (2) establish contact with the other elements of their Legion? Those are the most basic measures anyone would take in such a situation.

I could think of a few legions where they might not do so for various reasons. World Eaters being a quick easy one.

[Captain Idaho]

I actually think the Ultramarine's expertise is showcased very well in this book.

The Legion is attacked unexpectedly out of nowhere. Their forces are scattered, they don't know what is going on, and communication between the scattered forces has broken down. Which of the Legions then wouldn't try to (1) figure out what is going on, and (2) establish contact with the other elements of their Legion? Those are the most basic measures anyone would take in such a situation.

 

I think you're missing the crucial elements in the actual story. So many times you're told in it how the Ultramarines just have to be put down or they come round and smash you up, or how they rallied in a comprehensive force thought unfeasible for any fighting force considering their situation.

 

You make it sound as if it's a simply a case of deciding to do those things and they're done. Figuring out what is going on is actually more difficult than it sounds i.e. where are the enemy? What strength are they? Where are our allies and what combat readiness are they? What areas are secure and who needs protecting? What resources are available and where can we go to secure more if needed? What is the enemy objective and how do we survive their predations?

 

These are just some of the questions the Ultramarines were able to ask and find answers to. Considering the extremely bleak situation they were in it is actually a phenomonal feat. Other Legions would have splintered, they would have dispersed and gone to ground, fortified their positions and make last stands, arrange constant counter attacks or hit and run attacks or just relentlessly assault the opponent. The Ultramarines managed to restablish a cohesive fighting unit in the face of unrelenting pressure, establish communications and develop a credible long term response to resolve the situation, all the while finding much of the answers I mentioned earlier.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Know No Fear was a decent book but wasn't a particularly stellar example of story telling, I think that's where they lost.

[Legatus]

I think you're missing the crucial elements in the actual story. So many times you're told in it how the Ultramarines just have to be put down or they come round and smash you up, or how they rallied in a comprehensive force thought unfeasible for any fighting force considering their situation.

Incidentally, that has rather unfavourable implications in itself. The way how that line is repeated throughout the novel (it is pointed out at least twice IIRC, and with some conviction), there has to be some basis for it. I.e. the Ultramarines have earned that reputation during the Great Crusade, meaning that there would have been a few instances where the Ultramarines suffered a heavy blow but then made an exceptional comeback. And the comeback part is kind of commendable, right? But it also means they were beaten down prior to that, and more than once. Compare that to reports about how Jonson had allegedly never lost a battle. The implication that the Ultramarines had suffered setbacks at several times is not that encouraging in general, but it also seems to go specifically against the previous Great Crusade lore about the Ultramarines, which had stated that in general the Ultramarines Legion had suffered fewer casualties than any other Legion.

 

 

You make it sound as if it's a simply a case of deciding to do those things and they're done. Figuring out what is going on is actually more difficult than it sounds i.e. where are the enemy? What strength are they? Where are our allies and what combat readiness are they? What areas are secure and who needs protecting? What resources are available and where can we go to secure more if needed? What is the enemy objective and how do we survive their predations?

 

These are just some of the questions the Ultramarines were able to ask and find answers to. Considering the extremely bleak situation they were in it is actually a phenomonal feat. Other Legions would have splintered, they would have dispersed and gone to ground, fortified their positions and make last stands, arrange constant counter attacks or hit and run attacks or just relentlessly assault the opponent. The Ultramarines managed to restablish a cohesive fighting unit in the face of unrelenting pressure, establish communications and develop a credible long term response to resolve the situation, all the while finding much of the answers I mentioned earlier.

I think you are projecting a lot of that into the novel. It is possible that the Ultramarines did all those things, and it would be characteristic for them. But the novel does not really describe it in that way.

 

Off the top of my head, these were the specific things the Ultramarines accomplished:

 

- Ventanus' force identifies a secure position in a fortress and proceeds to hole up in there.

 

- Another Ultramarine force manages to acquire a decent fighting strength and some heavy vehicles. This force then (entirely coincidentally, IIRC, but I could be wrong) manages to bail out Ventanus' force at the point where it is in danger to be overrun.

 

- Ventanus/Guilliman manage to establish contact to one another.

 

- Guilliman identifies two key locations to regain control over the defense grid, and orders Ventanus' to attack the one on the ground while attacking one himself.

 

 

The other Ultramarine forces are barely mentioned, and are only described fighting off Word Bearer attacks, without themselves contributing anything to a global effort. But that is the problem I had described earlier: The Collected Visions account described a global effort, where all the ground forces were coordinating their actions and started fighting back. The novel describes only very few directed actions by the Ultramarines, with the two attacks against the key installations being the only offensive ones. And the accomplishments I have listed above could have been achieved by any other Legion force. It was described much more as par for the course actions. Surviving, figuring out what is going on, making contact with other Legion forces.

[Captain Idaho]

The background doesn't have to describe the obvious logistical and tactical elements of a conflict for it to exist. It's the boring stuff that only needs to be hinted at in a book with finite amount of pages.

 

And why wouldn't the Ultramarines have struggled sometimes in the Great Crusade? Every Legion has fought desparate and losing wars during the Crusade, except maybe the Alpha Legion who weren't around long enough? (likely even elements of them have)

 

They aren't allowed personalities, they aren't allowed to lose or even struggle, they must win through virtue of being better than everyone in every conceivable way... I dread you getting a commission to write an Ultramarines novel! :yes:

[Hyaenidae]

They aren't allowed personalities, they aren't allowed to lose or even struggle, they must win through virtue of being better than everyone in every conceivable way... I dread you getting a commission to write an Ultramarines novel! :yes:

 

Guy 1: "Hey man, you get the new Ultra book?"

Guy 2: "The one by L. Gatus? Yeah, just yesterday."

Guy 1: "The abridged or unabridged version?"

[Legatus]

And why wouldn't the Ultramarines have struggled sometimes in the Great Crusade?

I'm just saying, that remark that is repeated throughout the book is not the most flattering. That's all. Especially not when other Legions/Primarchs have the reputation to never lose a battle. Or to be the Emperor's executioners. But the Ultramarines? If you beat them down, they will get back up and come back to finish the job. Meh.

 

 

They aren't allowed personalities, they aren't allowed to lose or even struggle, they must win through virtue of being better than everyone in every conceivable way...

You are being unfair. I am not complaining that the Ultramarines suffered a heavy blow at the Battle for Calth. I am complaining that the novel did not highlight their Legion characteristics in any way (while providing suggestions how that could have been pulled off in an earlier post), and right now I am complaining that the reputation Dan Abnett has devised for them in his novel is not the most flattering, not in comparison to the reputations of other Legions, and not really in line woth the reputation previous Codices has ascribed to them.

Edit: Of course, I am also complaining that the accomplishments the previous accounts of the Battle did ascribe to the Ultramarines were severely diminished or removed alltogether in this novel.

[Captain Idaho]

I'm not really being unfair though, mate. Many times you've criticised the Ultramarines bantering with eachother, showing sparks of natural human behaviour (military humour exists for a very real reason) and you are struggling to accept the Ultramarines only action in the Heresy being portrayed as a defeat because you see no virtue in it (I personally don't mind, just as Iron Hands players don't think the massacre at Istvaan diminishes the Iron Hands).

 

It's the way you come across that gives that impression. It's not intended to be seens as a personal attack (hence the friendly smilie to denote the jovial banter intended in our discourse) and the reason why I removed posts which could be construed as an attack on you too.

 

I do think you will be better served to look at the back ground from a modified perspective to be honest, it would lower your blood pressure and allow you to enjoy new publications more. I used to be a staunch starch-rear Ultramarine fan when it comes to background material when I first joined this forum and I found I was involved in many a debate with other Frater. However, I learnt to evolve my preferences and I swear I enjoy 40K much more, getting much more excited about new and impending releases.

 

I'm just saying, that remark that is repeated throughout the book is not the most flattering. That's all. Especially not when other Legions/Primarchs have the reputation to never lose a battle. Or to be the Emperor's executioners. But the Ultramarines? If you beat them down, they will get back up and come back to finish the job. Meh.

 

Everyone knows the Ultramarines have a reputation for stategic and tactical genious, for excellent planning, saving planets rather than conquering them, and sucess. It didn't need to be emphasised in the novel since everyone knows it, so we go to add being tough as nails to the list too.

 

Sounds good to me. The Imperial Fists have been riding that pony for years and now we can get our pony too.

[Legatus]

I'm not really being unfair though, mate. Many times you've criticised the Ultramarines bantering with eachother, showing sparks of natural human behaviour (military humour exists for a very real reason) and you are struggling to accept the Ultramarines only action in the Heresy being portrayed as a defeat because you see no virtue in it (I personally don't mind, just as Iron Hands players don't think the massacre at Istvaan diminishes the Iron Hands).

Ok, but then part of why I was disappointed in the way the novel portrayed it was that the other sources had painted a very different picture. That is a bit differnet than getting a new story about your Legion and that happening to not go in their favour. (Btw, another engagement of the Horus Heresy of the Ultramarines is the Battle on Eskrador, another defeat for the Ultramarines. And as much as I maintain that the account is fishy, I doubt GW will go that route and will instead implement it as legit.)

[pingo]

But the Ultramarines? If you beat them down, they will get back up and come back to finish the job. Meh.

The obvious implication being that other Legions would not get back up again. Which would be a positive trait, no?

 

Can't understand the appeal of invulnerable heroes myself.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

The thing that really stuck out to me, if anyone is paying attention :whistling:, was something that only got a couple of lines maybe once in the book.

 

I'll paraphrase but it's essence was "If you attack, kill them and if you fail it will be the last thing you do".

[Legatus]

The obvious implication being that other Legions would not get back up again. Which would be a positive trait, no?

I dunno, was one of the Legions known to have suffered a heavy blow and then be unable to rally and eventually defeat the threat?

[Gree]

And why wouldn't the Ultramarines have struggled sometimes in the Great Crusade?

I'm just saying, that remark that is repeated throughout the book is not the most flattering. That's all. Especially not when other Legions/Primarchs have the reputation to never lose a battle. Or to be the Emperor's executioners. But the Ultramarines? If you beat them down, they will get back up and come back to finish the job. Meh.

 

 

They aren't allowed personalities, they aren't allowed to lose or even struggle, they must win through virtue of being better than everyone in every conceivable way...

You are being unfair. I am not complaining that the Ultramarines suffered a heavy blow at the Battle for Calth. I am complaining that the novel did not highlight their Legion characteristics in any way (while providing suggestions how that could have been pulled off in an earlier post), and right now I am complaining that the reputation Dan Abnett has devised for them in his novel is not the most flattering, not in comparison to the reputations of other Legions, and not really in line woth the reputation previous Codices has ascribed to them.

 

Indeed, but the fact that the Codices and canon relating to the UM's and intended for their players (or whichever army it happens to be about) will make everything sound like a victory of sorts, whether it be a pyrrhic one or not, given that no-one will purchase a Codex or army book that makes that army sound anything less than the best thing since sliced bread. It's all about the angles.

 

The HH is the work as a whole, with individual novels focusing on individual factions close-up, leaving the reader to side with whoever they damn well want to as to who was in the wrong, who was right and who was hard done by. This isn't about having a company poster boy to pull in new customers; it's about the facts and minutiae of the largest and most important conflict of the entire WH40K universe.

 

It as I posted earlier from Black Library. The facts you knew earlier were biased and slanted and now we are seeing the real story explained to us.