Did the Ultramarines lose at Calth?

[Legatus]

Indeed, but the fact that the Codices and canon relating to the UM's and intended for their players (or whichever army it happens to be about) will make everything sound like a victory of sorts, whether it be a pyrrhic one or not, given that no-one will purchase a Codex or army book that makes that army sound anything less than the best thing since sliced bread. It's all about the angles.

 

The HH is the work as a whole, with individual novels focusing on individual factions close-up, leaving the reader to side with whoever they damn well want to as to who was in the wrong, who was right and who was hard done by. This isn't about having a company poster boy to pull in new customers; it's about the facts and minutiae of the largest and most important conflict of the entire WH40K universe.

 

It as I posted earlier from Black Library. The facts you knew earlier were biased and slanted and now we are seeing the real story explained to us.

As I have pointed out earlier, the Ultramarine focused sources do not generally mention the Battle for Calth at all, instead describing how the Ultramarines had been too far away to do much during the Heresy and had remained almost unscathed as a result. The two sources that describe the Battle For Calth are the Word Bearers Index Astartes and the the Collected Visions book. The latter describes it first more from a Word Bearers point of view (how they get the order from Horus, and how they prepare for the attack) and then from an Ultramarines point of view (how they manage to turn it around).

[pingo]

The obvious implication being that other Legions would not get back up again. Which would be a positive trait, no?

I dunno, was one of the Legions known to have suffered a heavy blow and then be unable to rally and eventually defeat the threat?

You would know, encyclopaedia boy :unsure:

 

I guess if in your mind the Ultras never ever suffered any significant setback of any kind in the centuries of the Great Crusade, then there's no point debating that side-issue. Just seems you're deliberately finding things to pick at and criticise now. Don't know whether you are trying to be provocative or something, but that seems to be the result. Sort of kills any proper discussion when you're so belligerent.

[Legatus]

Wasn't the topic for this thread more or less how the Ultramarines did in the Battle for Calth? Then taking the position (and substantiating it with arguments, explanations and examinations of the sources) that they did not do all that well should be a viable one.

[pingo]

Wasn't the topic for this thread more or less how the Ultramarines did in the Battle for Calth? Then taking the position (and substantiating it with arguments, explanations and examinations of the sources) that they did not do all that well should be a viable one.

Sure, but that's not exactly what you've been doing, and that goes for more than just you, myself included. So you're saying you think they didn't win, but also think they should have done as you liked that part of the older description of the battle. That's a fair position to take.

 

The problem I think we've run into is this is one of those discussions about something that is open to interpretation and touches apon areas highly dependent on personal preference. Recipe for disaster!

[Gree]

Indeed, but the fact that the Codices and canon relating to the UM's and intended for their players (or whichever army it happens to be about) will make everything sound like a victory of sorts, whether it be a pyrrhic one or not, given that no-one will purchase a Codex or army book that makes that army sound anything less than the best thing since sliced bread. It's all about the angles.

 

The HH is the work as a whole, with individual novels focusing on individual factions close-up, leaving the reader to side with whoever they damn well want to as to who was in the wrong, who was right and who was hard done by. This isn't about having a company poster boy to pull in new customers; it's about the facts and minutiae of the largest and most important conflict of the entire WH40K universe.

 

It as I posted earlier from Black Library. The facts you knew earlier were biased and slanted and now we are seeing the real story explained to us.

As I have pointed out earlier, the Ultramarine focused sources do not generally mention the Battle for Calth at all, instead describing how the Ultramarines had been too far away to do much during the Heresy and had remained almost unscathed as a result. The two sources that describe the Battle For Calth are the Word Bearers Index Astartes and the the Collected Visions book. The latter describes it first more from a Word Bearers point of view (how they get the order from Horus, and how they prepare for the attack) and then from an Ultramarines point of view (how they manage to turn it around).

 

Mmm, not quite what I said, is it? The point of it is that the different accounts of it are slanted one way or another, for various reasons. The HH is filling in the gaps and giving a relatively unbiased account of it, which none of the sources ever have before.

[Legatus]

Mmm, not quite what I said, is it? The point of it is that the different accounts of it are slanted one way or another, for various reasons. The HH is filling in the gaps and giving a relatively unbiased account of it, which none of the sources ever have before.

And my reply was that the previous accounts of the Battle for Calth wouldn't be biased in favour of the Ultramarines, because they did not appear in Ultramarine focused sources.

[Gree]

Mmm, not quite what I said, is it? The point of it is that the different accounts of it are slanted one way or another, for various reasons. The HH is filling in the gaps and giving a relatively unbiased account of it, which none of the sources ever have before.

And my reply was that the previous accounts of the Battle for Calth wouldn't be biased in favour of the Ultramarines, because they did not appear in Ultramarine focused sources.

 

That's again, not really my point. Those sources, the Index Astartes, the CV, the Codices, etc, etc, are all slanted one way or another. As my

Black Library source has stated, now we are seeing the true version of events.

 

Even in the IA and the CV, the Ultramarines ''winning'' is mostly an angle. The Horus Heresy series meanwhile is a project unlike any other, catering mostly to the people who have read the novel series up to this point.

[Legatus]

That's again, not really my point. Those sources, the Index Astartes, the CV, the Codices, etc, etc, are all slanted one way or another. As my Black Library source has stated, now we are seeing the true version of events.

Yes, I know, I know. All the previous sources were just telling us bull:cuss. The Horus Heresy novels finally tell us what really went down. Yay!

 

 

Even in the IA and the CV, the Ultramarines ''winning'' is mostly an angle.

The Index Astartes articles did not generally shy away from having traitor Legions dominate loyalist Legions in the traitor's articles. Prime examples being the Index Astartes of the Iron Warriors and, for a specific example of a traitor Legion beating down the Ultramarines, the Index Astartes article of the Alpha Legion. The CV, basing its content on the Word Bearers Index Astartes and on the other souerces about the Ultramarines, only really mentions the Ultramarines in the context of the Battle for Calth and that they turned up at the final moments of the Siege of Terra and the subsequent Scouring, their only formerly known participations in the events, so I am not sure the CV really has any inherent "the Ultramarines win" bias.

[Blood Angel Scout]

Anyone mentioned on this thread that one of the upcoming HH series is called the Mark of Calth, said to reveal what happened under the surface, possibly even the next step in the battle of Calth, which is still ongoing at this point, whereas by literary device, the novel ends at a different time therefore whole thread is redundant til the aforementioned release tells the next part of the story.

 

Think of it as half time or maybe even 1st quarter (no idea how long they can stretch this one out), still a whole lot of game left to see the final score

[Legatus]

Anyone mentioned on this thread that one of the upcoming HH series is called the Mark of Calth, said to reveal what happened under the surface, possibly even the next step in the battle of Calth, which is still ongoing at this point, whereas by literary device, the novel ends at a different time therefore whole thread is redundant til the aforementioned release tells the next part of the story.

The Word Bearers have achieved their objectives at the end of 'Know No Fear', and are leaving the world behind. The Ultramarine fleet is leaving as well, driven off by the wave of hazardous radiation from Calth's poisoned sun. Both sides have forces stranded on the ground, but the struggle for dominance over that world is over. For the remaining Word Bearers and Cultists it is now all about how much harm they can inflict on the remaining Imperials, and for the Ultramarines it is about mopping up the remaining hostile elements. The "Battle of Calth" ended with the Ultramarines retaking the defense grid, and for them the "Battle" only consisted of a grand total of two conscious own actions. Some battle.

[karden00]

Legs Legs Legs

Granted, only two actions were described in KNF, however it is mentioned that what we read (Ventanus' struggles, etc.) was more or less happening all over the planet. From how I see it, I dont need a breakdown of the battle on a planetary scale. Ventanus' story pretty much shows exactly what all the other Ultramarines were going through.

 

Who else thinks Legs should get a picture? Ive always found his posts to be lacking of a certain flare. Lets petition him to get something up there!

[Gaius Atticus]

I'm not really being unfair though, mate. Many times you've criticised the Ultramarines bantering with eachother, showing sparks of natural human behaviour (military humour exists for a very real reason) and you are struggling to accept the Ultramarines only action in the Heresy being portrayed as a defeat because you see no virtue in it (I personally don't mind, just as Iron Hands players don't think the massacre at Istvaan diminishes the Iron Hands).

The Ion Hands went down fighting against overwhelming, unbeatable odds, and their Primarch was killed when he was on the verge of taking out one of the traitor Primarchs, until the Chaos Gods intervened.

 

Ultramarines went down to what appeared to be a half-a**ed attempt by Lorgar, to the point he sent somebody else in his palce. Guilliman went down fighting, but not against a Primarch or big Daemon, but a Space Marine.

 

But the Ultramarines? If you beat them down, they will get back up and come back to finish the job. Meh.

The obvious implication being that other Legions would not get back up again. Which would be a positive trait, no?

 

Can't understand the appeal of invulnerable heroes myself.

None of the other Legions would be weak enough to get beaten down in the first place. It took 7 traitor legions to take out 3 legions at Istvaan. Even then the 3 legions survived.

[Captain Idaho]

This is a first and final warning shot to everyone involved in this topic; refrain from personal attacks, no matter how adept you may think your point may be. There is a difference between saying "You're not getting it" and saying "you are the most annoying person on this forum" or "You should go away".

 

It won't be tolerated going forward and Frater should be grateful some of our more zealous Mods and Admins haven't nuked this thread from orbit.

 

If the discussion is getting dragged off topic because of someone, then use the Report button rather than criticising the individual directly.

 

- Captain Idaho

B&C Moderating team

[pingo]

None of the other Legions would be weak enough to get beaten down in the first place. It took 7 traitor legions to take out 3 legions at Istvaan. Even then the 3 legions survived.

I don't get why that would imply that the Ultras are weak?

 

The big difference it seems to me was that at Istvaan the 3 Legions were ready for battle while the Ultras were most definitely not. Also, Istvaan was nothing more than a massacre, and some were fortunate/skilled/determined enough to slip through Horus's fingers.

 

Suffering from a surprise attack from a friend doesn't make one weak. Fighting against other Astartes was unquestionable: hence why Thiel was marked for censure for even considering it.

 

Are we extending the whole 'if you don't kill an Ultramarine, he will kill you' thing too far? I didn't actually get the impression from the book that it was spoken of in the context of the Legion as a whole, or even as a force of Ultramarines. It seemed more of an individual trait to me. I just went with that view as everyone else was, but I guess I'm questioning that now.

[Legatus]

None of the other Legions would be weak enough to get beaten down in the first place. It took 7 traitor legions to take out 3 legions at Istvaan. Even then the 3 legions survived.

I don't get why that would imply that the Ultras are weak?

 

The big difference it seems to me was that at Istvaan the 3 Legions were ready for battle while the Ultras were most definitely not. Also, Istvaan was nothing more than a massacre, and some were fortunate/skilled/determined enough to slip through Horus's fingers.

 

Suffering from a surprise attack from a friend doesn't make one weak. Fighting against other Astartes was unquestionable: hence why Thiel was marked for censure for even considering it.

The issue about being beaten down and then coming back up was just a minor thing, something I wanted to point out briefly. Throughout the book there are a few references, a specific reputation of the Ultramarines, that you should never leave an Ultramarine alive if you attack them, because if you do not kill them all, they will get back to you. At a glance, that seems like a badass reputation, right? But it is not really that badass if you consider that in order to acquire such a reputation, the Ultramarines had to have been beaten down a few times in the past. And no other Legion has a history of being beaten down on various occasions. I merely wanted to point out that the implications of such a reputation are not really all that favourable. Especially since the other Legions usually get actually badass reputations. But this is not a big issue with the Battle of Calth or with the novel.

 

 

Legs Legs Legs

Granted, only two actions were described in KNF, however it is mentioned that what we read (Ventanus' struggles, etc.) was more or less happening all over the planet. From how I see it, I dont need a breakdown of the battle on a planetary scale. Ventanus' story pretty much shows exactly what all the other Ultramarines were going through.

Yes, there was fighting all over the planet. But those were isolated cases. One small group of Ultramarines is fighting off Word Bearers over here. Another small group of Ultramarines is fighting off Word Bearers over there. Each group is fighting for its own survival. There is no united effort by the Ultramarines Legion to turn the fight against the Word Bearers and to defend the planet. The two actions at the end of the book are the first time the Ultramarines get their stuff together and muster a counter attack, and then the Battle is over. If this had been a completely new engagement we never had heard of before, perhaps that would be excusable. But what's frustrating (at least to me) in this particular case is that earlier descriptions of the Battle had described a much more herculean effort. The small pockets of Ultramarine defenders had started to link up. They had started to push back against the Word Bearers. They had won back Calth through sweat and blood, and through a global Battle. In the novel, that does not happen, and they win back Calth by activating a single doomsday device.

[greatcrusade08]

None of the other Legions would be weak enough to get beaten down in the first place. It took 7 traitor legions to take out 3 legions at Istvaan. Even then the 3 legions survived.

I don't get why that would imply that the Ultras are weak?

 

The big difference it seems to me was that at Istvaan the 3 Legions were ready for battle while the Ultras were most definitely not. Also, Istvaan was nothing more than a massacre, and some were fortunate/skilled/determined enough to slip through Horus's fingers.

 

Suffering from a surprise attack from a friend doesn't make one weak. Fighting against other Astartes was unquestionable: hence why Thiel was marked for censure for even considering it.

 

Are we extending the whole 'if you don't kill an Ultramarine, he will kill you' thing too far? I didn't actually get the impression from the book that it was spoken of in the context of the Legion as a whole, or even as a force of Ultramarines. It seemed more of an individual trait to me. I just went with that view as everyone else was, but I guess I'm questioning that now.

 

to be fair Gaius has paraphrased here ALOT..

there may have been 7 traitor legions involved at istavaan, but originally it was 3 loyalist legions trying to dig out an entranched force of 4? traitor legions.

they were then betrayed when thier reinforcements turned out to be working for the enemy.

i guess my point is comparing it to what happened at calth, is like comparing apples to oranges.. different situations entirely.

 

the word bearers had a force to rival the ultramarines, had the complete element of suprise, especially in space where the ultas ships were powered down.

they should have won.

people claim the book says more about the word bearers ineptitude than the surivivalist nature of the ultramarines.. they are entiitled to that opinion, but its not one i share tbh.

 

Yes, I know, I know. All the previous sources were just telling us bull:cuss. The Horus Heresy novels finally tell us what really went down. Yay!

 

i think this is very telling of this whole thread.. there is a difference between what your claiming and whats actually the case..

i fear this will fall on deaf ears, but ill try anyway.

 

when i was studying for my GCSEs we learnt all about the topics needed to pass, on my first day studying at A-levels my teacher tod me to disregard everythng we had learned thus far a it was inaccruate.

as you can imagine my obvious question was "was it all lies, why teach us something thats not true"

and tbh its the attitude i see in my own children when watching movies and the like, hey dont see shades of grey, everything is black and white, good or bad.. as a child at the time my reaction was the same.

 

what my teacher told us, was that the GCSE info wasnt wrong, it was simplified to make more sense, and make it easier to absorb.. when in reality everything was far more complex.

 

its the same here, the old articles, the golden lore if you will, couldnt have told the story becuase the information is covered in small sections.

they simplified the result of the battle to simply state it was an ultramarines victory.. is that wrong?

no, becuase the ultramarines could claim victory for beating back the word bearers and reclaiming thier planet.

 

its all in the shades of grey, theres 50 of 'em, at least according to the little missus.

 

think of the IA artciles as the blurb you find at the beginning of a series of novels, its the broad overview, the real story is now being told

[Legatus]

There is "expanding" or even "clarifying" the previous material, and then there is "changing" it.

 

"Guilliman led several fleet raids against the Word Bearers fleet and sent orders to all the scattered Ultramarines forces on the ground" is not a condensed and simplified description of "Guilliman ordered Ventanus to attack a space port and led a boarding action against the defense station".

 

The Ultramarines only learning at the very end about the Heresy and being almost unscathed due to their lack of action is not a simplified description of how the Ultramarines learned at the very beginning of the Heresy and then were engaged in several actions.

 

The Horus Heresy series is not just filling in gaps and giving a more nuanced description. It is also blatantly changing events. Sometimes there may be a reason for it. They increased the Legion sizes to make it feel more epic in scale. They moved the Battle of Calth to the beginning of the Heresy because they intend for the Ultramarines to be more engaged in the Heresy than previously stated. But sometimes I don't see the reason, such as for the increased size of Ultramar, or for changing Chapters to a ten thousand warrior formation. And sometimes I get the distinct impression that it's just because the author thought something would be neat.

[Captain Idaho]

None of the other Legions would be weak enough to get beaten down in the first place. It took 7 traitor legions to take out 3 legions at Istvaan. Even then the 3 legions survived.

I don't get why that would imply that the Ultras are weak?

 

The big difference it seems to me was that at Istvaan the 3 Legions were ready for battle while the Ultras were most definitely not. Also, Istvaan was nothing more than a massacre, and some were fortunate/skilled/determined enough to slip through Horus's fingers.

 

Suffering from a surprise attack from a friend doesn't make one weak. Fighting against other Astartes was unquestionable: hence why Thiel was marked for censure for even considering it.

The issue about being beaten down and then coming back up was just a minor thing, something I wanted to point out briefly. Throughout the book there are a few references, a specific reputation of the Ultramarines, that you should never leave an Ultramarine alive if you attack them, because if you do not kill them all, they will get back to you. At a glance, that seems like a badass reputation, right? But it is not really that badass if you consider that in order to acquire such a reputation, the Ultramarines had to have been beaten down a few times in the past. And no other Legion has a history of being beaten down on various occasions. I merely wanted to point out that the implications of such a reputation are not really all that favourable. Especially since the other Legions usually get actually badass reputations. But this is not a big issue with the Battle of Calth or with the novel.

 

Regardless of the size of the issue, I still think you are looking to deeply into a reputation. It's a passing reference to how super-bad the Ultramarines are, not meant to stand up to gramatical scrutinity or indepth analysis.

[pingo]

And sometimes I get the distinct impression that it's just because the author thought something would be neat.

You're probably right with that, and it seems to be working for them.

 

I agree with you that there have been some changes, and I'm not sure anyone could contest, or is contesting, that there hasn't been any changes at all, in any sense. However, GW do accept that there are and will be changes and use the 'matter of perspective' approach as a device to maintain a level of coherency to it and allow people to continue to enjoy the fluff that they prefer. I think we need to do the same.

 

Now, it seems to me that the only new information that may have any real bearing on this question is the motivations and goals of the Word Bearers. Previously, we didn't really have any idea of what they were trying to do beyond attempting to take the Ultras out of the war – which it appears they more or less did. Now they have all manner of objectives in KNF, which are hinted at but never spelled out particularly explicitly. I guess these are for later books. Once we know more about that we can assess it.

 

However, as I was writing that I realise that whatever the WBs were trying to do, it's not relevant for the question as we are talking about whether the Ultras lost not if the WBs won. There is a difference. Originally, the Ultras were trying to survive. They did, hence you could call that a victory albeit very pyrrhic. In KNF, even though the WBs have goals we didn't previously know about, the Ultras' goal is the same: to survive. Which they do. At no point are they trying to prevent the WB's plans, other than the one about killing them (obviously!).

 

I think I have to classify this one as a pyrrhic victory for the Ultras, whatever fluff we use.

 

 

EDIT

 

Regardless of the size of the issue, I still think you are looking to deeply into a reputation. It's a passing reference to how super-bad the Ultramarines are, not meant to stand up to gramatical scrutinity or indepth analysis.

Agreed. I'm sure anything more than that was absolutely not in Abnett's mind when he wrote what he most probably thought was a cool little saying the Ultras throw around.

[Antarius]

The Word Bearers have achieved their objectives at the end of 'Know No Fear', and are leaving the world behind.

I'm not sure they have. I think the Ultramarines' efforts deprived them of several important ones.

 

As for Legions that wouldn't have reacted the same way as the Ultras (and hence, would probably have been wiped out) by my reckoning: Space Wolves, World Eaters, Iron Warriors, Emperor's Children, Imperial Fists(?), Death Guard(?), possibly a few others.

So yeah, I think the Ultras "specialty" is shown off although I agree we could've gotten a bit more "space romans" stuff.

[greatcrusade08]

There is "expanding" or even "clarifying" the previous material, and then there is "changing" it.

 

"Guilliman led several fleet raids against the Word Bearers fleet and sent orders to all the scattered Ultramarines forces on the ground" is not a condensed and simplified description of "Guilliman ordered Ventanus to attack a space port and led a boarding action against the defense station".

 

 

actually, guilliman was in contact with several groups on the ground IIRC.

also the story hasnt been concluded yet, KNF has, but KNF isnt the whole battle for calth.. so he may still 'raid the word bearers fleet'.

 

tbh i think your being too literal

[Gree]

The Word Bearers have achieved their objectives at the end of 'Know No Fear', and are leaving the world behind.

I'm not sure they have. I think the Ultramarines' efforts deprived them of several important ones.

 

Like what?

[greatcrusade08]

Like what?

 

kill guilliman?

destroy the ultramarines?

 

im pretty sure they were objectives of the WBs werent they

[Antarius]

Like what?

 

kill guilliman?

destroy the ultramarines?

 

im pretty sure they were objectives of the WBs werent they

Indeed. I did a post on it earlier in the thread too.

 

Of course it's my interpretation, but I don't see anything indicating that the Word Bearers have met their objectives. Erebus may have met his own personal objectives though. Even so, he's clearly factually mistaken about the outcome of the battle in the same passage so I don't know how much his opinion should be taken as gospel on the WBs overall success at Calth.

 

I might be missing something though, so I'd be happy to discuss it :lol:

[Captain Idaho]

Actually a deliberate and critical objective was the capture of many Ultramarines capital ships once they were disabled by the Scrap Code. We know the Scrap Code was planned into the Word Bearers' action so we can also safely make the conclusion (from an Intelligence point of view) that the actions of boarding and seizing Ultramarines vessels was also part of that action. The book even mentions just how important Ultramarines naval assets would be to the Heresy war effort.

 

That's one objective they failed in and one which is probably just as high as slaying of Guilliman or the disruption of Warp travel.

 

Another objective not mentioned which is important and not considered is the Word Bearer's own losses. They lost a lot of men at Calth, and crucially lost a lot of ships when their intention was to increase their own naval assets. In military terms that is an aweful result of the conflict; you don't ambush an enemy and expect to lose such high numbers of troops and material.

 

Lastly; we have the hints from A D-B that the Ultramarines remain a threat that requires constant attention from the Warmaster in forthcoming novels. This means the removal of the Ultramarines from the war was less than successful, as he had to use additional assets to keep Guilliman and his Legion from interferring from Horus' plans. Further evidence of this is the future Ultramarines novels we can expect on the Heresy.