Did the Ultramarines lose at Calth?

[Legatus]

Kor Phaeron's goal had absolutely been the complete destruction of the Ultramarines. I had pointed out as much in the beginning of this thread.

"Calth is his operation, far more than it is Lorgar's. Kor Phaeron has planned this for his primarch meticulously, and executed it with the aid of Erebus. The punishment and annihilation of the XIII is its principle aim; the humiliation and execution of the wretched Roboute Guilliman. But it is also an advancement, another step on the spiral path of the Great Ritual. It will allow their beloved primarch to progress."

However, Erebus has other goals. At the end of the novel, he considers his missions accomplished. His ritual is complete, and the Ultramarines are crippled. For him that is enough, and was all that mattered. He leaves the world behind, having fulfilled his mission given to him by Lorgar. This indicates, especially with Lorgar hismelf being absent and pursuing other objectives at a nearby location, that the total destruction really was not a very crucial objective for the Word Bearers. It was for Kor Phaeron. This was his battle. But it was not for Lorgar or the Word Bearers.

 

Erebus even acknowledges that the Ultramarines managed to achieve something, a degree of pride, to not have been completely annihilated. But it matters not to him.

 

Their accomplishment, in this story, is to take a heavy blow better than expected.

[Captain Idaho]

Warfare doesn't work like that. Their goal wasn't just avoid a heavy, mortal blow. It was to retaliate with the aim of winning the wider war. Had the Ultramarines just won on the ground and their ships survived like how we have seen, the Ultramarines would have lost the wider war because the Word Bearers' fleet assets were all but untouched. Same goes for reducing the numbers of their foes and defeating them on the ground.

 

It isn't just about surviving Calth, it was about surviving it in a way to continue surviving later and prosecuting a war. Consider what would happen had the Ultramarines went to ground and avoided the Word Bearers rather than destroying them, both in space and on the ground. The 2nd largest Legion would be untouched and the Ultramarines would become an average sized Legion. Instead, what happened showed the Ultramarines brought the Word Bearers down with them, no easy follow up was possible from the Word Bearers, and the Warmaster had to re-evaluate his plans to prevent Guilliman from getting back in the game.

 

Like I said above, really.

[Legatus]

The losses of the Word Bearers were certainly higher than expected. But I did not really get the impression that they were unacceptable. That the Word Bearers themselves were badly hurt by the outcome of this campaign. Erebus does not seem to think so.

[greatcrusade08]

given the word beaers zeal and attitude, i doubt they would have cared for the loss of manpower, i think the loss of so many ships would have struck a nasty blow though.

regardless of WB opinions, its safe to say the way things worked out, was far more in theultramarines favour than WBs, in terms of predicting the outcome of a protracted war between the two (ignoring what we know about the results already)

[Captain Idaho]

The losses of the Word Bearers were certainly higher than expected. But I did not really get the impression that they were unacceptable. That the Word Bearers themselves were badly hurt by the outcome of this campaign. Erebus does not seem to think so.

 

Unacceptable to the party involved doesn't mean anything for the greater evaluation of the war. The Word Bearers found it acceptable to lose X amount of troops and naval assets, and I'm sure Horus expected that, but the greater war was ultimately hurt by those losses. So operating within acceptable losses didn't equate sucess considering with the benefit of hindsight.

[Antarius]

Gah. Double post.

[Gree]

The losses of the Word Bearers were certainly higher than expected. But I did not really get the impression that they were unacceptable. That the Word Bearers themselves were badly hurt by the outcome of this campaign. Erebus does not seem to think so.

 

Erebus also spent pretty much all his time on the ground and probably does not have a perfect overview of the conflict. It's entirely possible he could be wrong or have misjudged it.

[Antarius]

The losses of the Word Bearers were certainly higher than expected. But I did not really get the impression that they were unacceptable. That the Word Bearers themselves were badly hurt by the outcome of this campaign. Erebus does not seem to think so.

But, once again, in the very same paragraph Erebus evidently thinks a bunch of things that are factually wrong in-setting. Why do you put so much stock in his opinion on this?

[Legatus]

Unacceptable to the party involved doesn't mean anything for the greater evaluation of the war. The Word Bearers found it acceptable to lose X amount of troops and naval assets, and I'm sure Horus expected that, but the greater war was ultimately hurt by those losses. So operating within acceptable losses didn't equate sucess considering with the benefit of hindsight.

The Word Bearers did manage to lock down a large portion of the loyalist forces for at least the following two years. Two years the loyalists were unable to coordinate their efforts, or were unable to engage the traitors anywhere else other than within their immediate system.

 

I think it was the user 'Veteran Sergeant' who had speculated on various occasions that Horus had sent the Word Bearers to deal with the Ultramarines because he considered them the most expendable of his Legions. I do not neccessary agree with that view, but I also do not think that the Ultramarines hurt the plans of the warmaster by offering a more determined resistance than the Word Bearers had been expecting.

 

And this might be speculation, but I do expect that Lorgar will be able to achieve his personal objective as well. That's the only reason why he was not on Calth personally and chose not to kill Guilliman, after all. But I guess it is possible that the BL team will have Lorgar fail at what he seeks to accomplish. I doubt it, though.

[Captain Idaho]

That leaves a logical conclusion to the discussion; we'll have to wait and see if where the BL take the Ultramarines and Word Bearers in the Heresy series. I'm willing to bet, just as I did in the fall out from when Rules of Engagement was released, that there will be more to the story which will justify the Ultramarines and their actions. I was right back then too.

[Capt. Taurus]

I think it was the user 'Veteran Sergeant' who had speculated on various occasions that Horus had sent the Word Bearers to deal with the Ultramarines because he considered them the most expendable of his Legions. I do not neccessary agree with that view, but I also do not think that the Ultramarines hurt the plans of the warmaster by offering a more determined resistance than the Word Bearers had been expecting.

 

And this might be speculation, but I do expect that Lorgar will be able to achieve his personal objective as well. That's the only reason why he was not on Calth personally and chose not to kill Guilliman, after all. But I guess it is possible that the BL team will have Lorgar fail at what he seeks to accomplish. I doubt it, though.

 

Clearly Horus sent the WBs because they were the only other legion who came close to the UMs in size and number of strength. And he knew about their personal grudge against the UMs. Anybody remember the old fluff in which Horus was such a masterful general because he understood to employ his forces in accordance with their personal misgivings and motivations? Remember that he had the SWs and DAs fight alongside on another for such a long time because he knew about their rivalry and sought to improve their performance by making them outperform each other?

 

That's why he sent the WBs.

 

On a personal note i'm also pissed off about things like Kor Phaeron being able to put down a Primarch, chaos enhanced or not. A Primarch given chaotic blessings (Fulgrim) came close to being killed by another Primarch (Ferrus) and Kor is not even a full Astartes but he can kick around Guilliman as though he were an imperial soldier? F*** that.

[Marshal Rohr]

Kit Phaeron is the Black Cardinal, man. He is one of the most dangerous beings in the galaxy. He and Erebus are like those two prophets in revelation that vomit fire on people. They aren't meant to be be big badass fighters, they command unsurpassed warp sorcery.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah, and besides that, Guilliman completely underestimates such an increase in sorcery from someone who was never a Psker in the first place. He realises just how powerful they are after that too.

 

It seems to be missed just how powerful psykers and Chaos as, or at least woefully underestimating both that I would say is a dis-service to them.

 

Look at it this way, if Guilliman went down to that attack, probably all bar 1 Primarch would go down to that attack (Magnus being an exception).

[Gree]

Kit Phaeron is the Black Cardinal, man. He is one of the most dangerous beings in the galaxy. He and Erebus are like those two prophets in revelation that vomit fire on people. They aren't meant to be be big badass fighters, they command unsurpassed warp sorcery.

 

I suppose it's rather as if Prospero Burns had Russ being kicked around and beaten by Ahirman.

 

Look at it this way, if Guilliman went down to that attack, probably all bar 1 Primarch would go down to that attack (Magnus being an exception).

 

Well, we hae Russ shurgging off attacks rather easily from Tutelary-enhanced Thousand Son psykers and then Russ fighting Magnus himself. I very much imagine Russ vs Kor Phaeron would end with Russ ignoring everything that Phaeron threw at him before ripping his head off.

[Pulse]

Well, we hae Russ shurgging off attacks rather easily from Tutelary-enhanced Thousand Son psykers and then Russ fighting Magnus himself. I very much imagine Russ vs Kor Phaeron would end with Russ ignoring everything that Phaeron threw at him before ripping his head off.

Ah yes, the primarchs were made of awesome and so could obviously reflect the enormous powers of the warp that were/are controlled by enormously powerful individuals.

 

Same as Corax in Deliverance Lost deflecting heavy stubber rounds with the skin of his bare torso.

 

What a joke.

[Gree]

Well, we hae Russ shurgging off attacks rather easily from Tutelary-enhanced Thousand Son psykers and then Russ fighting Magnus himself. I very much imagine Russ vs Kor Phaeron would end with Russ ignoring everything that Phaeron threw at him before ripping his head off.

Ah yes, the primarchs were made of awesome and so could obviously reflect the enormous powers of the warp that were/are controlled by enormously powerful individuals.

 

Same as Corax in Deliverance Lost deflecting heavy stubber rounds with the skin of his bare torso.

 

What a joke.

 

I'm not sure what's so unbelievable about the Primarchs doing that. We have many, many peices of fluff detailing incredible feats for the Primarchs and they always were built to be these incredible legendary demigods.

[pingo]

Ah yes, the primarchs were made of awesome

They were made of the Immaterium and Emperor Juice. So yes :lol:

[Brother Captain Kezef]

You need to step away from personal favouritism and look at Calth from an objective viewpoint.

 

Wordbearer's goals and victories:

 

1) Revenge for the devastation of Monarchia

2) A heavy blow against the Ultramarines

 

Ultramarines goals and victories:

 

1) They survived

2) They inflicted significant casualties on the Wordbearers

 

Wordbearer defeats and failure:

 

1) The Ultramarines survived

 

Ultramarine defeats and failure:

 

2) The Wordbearer's where able to extract from Calth in sufficient strength to be a continued threat.

 

 

From a purely strategic standpoint the Battle for Calth was very much like Operation Market Garden in WW2. The operation was a strategic success but that final, sinificant goal was not obtained and that will taint the view of the operation. Even today many consider Market Garden to bea failure because the British paras at Arnhem where not relieved by XX corps, yet the operation was a major success as the other bridges where captured and crossed allowing a significant advance along the north and forced the Germans to rapidly retreat to maintain the security of the front.

 

Calth is similar, a large success marred by a single failure (the Ultramarines remain a viable fighting force) that will make the operation seem like a Word Bearer failure.

[Captain Idaho]

Kit Phaeron is the Black Cardinal, man. He is one of the most dangerous beings in the galaxy. He and Erebus are like those two prophets in revelation that vomit fire on people. They aren't meant to be be big badass fighters, they command unsurpassed warp sorcery.

 

I suppose it's rather as if Prospero Burns had Russ being kicked around and beaten by Ahirman.

 

Look at it this way, if Guilliman went down to that attack, probably all bar 1 Primarch would go down to that attack (Magnus being an exception).

 

Well, we hae Russ shurgging off attacks rather easily from Tutelary-enhanced Thousand Son psykers and then Russ fighting Magnus himself. I very much imagine Russ vs Kor Phaeron would end with Russ ignoring everything that Phaeron threw at him before ripping his head off.

 

I don't believe that is an accurate comparison. Ahirman wasn't a Chaos elevated Psyker at the time of the sacking of Prospero and not in the same league as Lorgar's highest minions at this stage. There is also an argument that the Warp overspill around Calth and onboard the ship at the time boosted the powers of such sorcery (like in The Chapter's Due).

 

Not to mention that Guilliman recovered pretty sharpish, almost as if he lured the egotistical Kor Phaeron into his reach... (speculative statement)

[Arachnid99]

In addition despite Russ's hypocritical hatred of psykers he's canonically said to have above average warp resistance and wears Rune Armour. Guilliman has the most secular of all the Primarchs was probably the most vulnerable to a sneak psyker attack.

[Gree]

I don't believe that is an accurate comparison. Ahirman wasn't a Chaos elevated Psyker at the time of the sacking of Prospero and not in the same league as Lorgar's highest minions at this stage. There is also an argument that the Warp overspill around Calth and onboard the ship at the time boosted the powers of such sorcery (like in The Chapter's Due).

 

It's a perfectly accurate comparison. You had the right hand man of a traitor primarch beat up a loyalist primarch.

 

Oh, and I don't buy the idea that a Word Bearer is better than a Thousand Son at warpcraft. Especially since that is the Thousand Sons whole thing and the Thousand Sons are clearly noted to be boosted by their tutelaries to power far beyond their norm. In fact it would probably be far easier for me to accept the whole ''He had warp sorcery!'' excuse for the Thousand Sons than the Word Bearers.

 

But that's actually not my point. You can of course make all sorts of excuses if you want. ''Oh Ko Phaeron had warp sorcery!'' but the fact remains that you had a Primarch being beaten up by a Space Marine. The only reason Guilliman survived is not because of his skill, but because of Word Bearer ineptitude at the last moment. Then you also have the subtle implication that Lorgar also would have totally destroyed Guilliman.

 

Imagine if this had Leman Russ being beaten up by Ahirman in Prospero Burns. The Space Wolf fandom would have exploded, I can assure you.

[Capt. Taurus]

I don't believe that is an accurate comparison. Ahirman wasn't a Chaos elevated Psyker at the time of the sacking of Prospero and not in the same league as Lorgar's highest minions at this stage. There is also an argument that the Warp overspill around Calth and onboard the ship at the time boosted the powers of such sorcery (like in The Chapter's Due).

 

It's a perfectly accurate comparison. You had the right hand man of a traitor primarch beat up a loyalist primarch.

 

Oh, and I don't buy the idea that a Word Bearer is better than a Thousand Son at warpcraft. Especially since that is the Thousand Sons whole thing and the Thousand Sons are clearly noted to be boosted by their tutelaries to power far beyond their norm. In fact it would probably be far easier for me to accept the whole ''He had warp sorcery!'' excuse for the Thousand Sons than the Word Bearers.

 

But that's actually not my point. You can of course make all sorts of excuses if you want. ''Oh Ko Phaeron had warp sorcery!'' but the fact remains that you had a Primarch being beaten up by a Space Marine. The only reason Guilliman survived is not because of his skill, but because of Word Bearer ineptitude at the last moment. Then you also have the subtle implication that Lorgar also would have totally destroyed Guilliman.

 

Imagine if this had Leman Russ being beaten up by Ahirman in Prospero Burns. The Space Wolf fandom would have exploded, I can assure you.

 

Exactly that.

 

I fear we all know the name of that abject heretic who has caused this rampant anti-Guilliman/anti-UM movement, which has festered so deeply that BL authors feel compelled to diminish characters within their canonical dimensions and even retcon entire events just to rectify one a**ho**'s codex.

[Marshal Rohr]

Thank you for your insight.

[pingo]

In addition despite Russ's hypocritical hatred of psykers he's canonically said to have above average warp resistance and wears Rune Armour. Guilliman has the most secular of all the Primarchs was probably the most vulnerable to a sneak psyker attack.

I would be inclined to agree with this. The Wolves ward themselves against 'Malificarum' anyway, wearing all manner of talismans and runes for protection. Those items, or at least the belief those items work, gives them a measure of protection.

 

I think characterising all this as 'Guilliman was beaten up by a marine' is doing a disservice to Guilliman and to Kor Phaeron in a sense. Kor was basically a channel for the power of much greater entities than a Primarch. Guilliman was taken totally by surprise by unheard of power, and don't forget he has pretty much lost his cool by this point and was, arguably, acting recklessly. Probably no surprise he got smacked a bit: he wasn't playing to his strengths.

 

Also: authors add peril. All the time.

[Capt. Taurus]

Thank you for your insight.

 

LOL i have a soft spot for sarcasm so if this was intended to make me like you, it succeeded.

 

Take it as you will, had GW decided to turn to the Salamanders for the prototype chapter after the 3rd edition was released with a mediocre writer subsequently deciding to hype them in the most vulgar way imaginable, we'd be hearing all the grievances and people's annoyance about the UMs directed at the guys in dark green armour and BL authors would be trying to make Vulkan look like a loser demigod who gets kicked around by an enhanced human.

 

I'm not even surprised, when someone at GW retcons entire BL publications to make the UMs look super-duper beyond all reason powerful, i'd be pissed off too. It's a shame that the fictional universe we all love so much is the part that has to suffer from it.

 

my 2 cents

 

cheers