Did the Ultramarines lose at Calth?

[Gaius Atticus]

I don't believe that is an accurate comparison. Ahirman wasn't a Chaos elevated Psyker at the time of the sacking of Prospero and not in the same league as Lorgar's highest minions at this stage. There is also an argument that the Warp overspill around Calth and onboard the ship at the time boosted the powers of such sorcery (like in The Chapter's Due).

 

It's a perfectly accurate comparison. You had the right hand man of a traitor primarch beat up a loyalist primarch.

 

Oh, and I don't buy the idea that a Word Bearer is better than a Thousand Son at warpcraft. Especially since that is the Thousand Sons whole thing and the Thousand Sons are clearly noted to be boosted by their tutelaries to power far beyond their norm. In fact it would probably be far easier for me to accept the whole ''He had warp sorcery!'' excuse for the Thousand Sons than the Word Bearers.

 

But that's actually not my point. You can of course make all sorts of excuses if you want. ''Oh Ko Phaeron had warp sorcery!'' but the fact remains that you had a Primarch being beaten up by a Space Marine. The only reason Guilliman survived is not because of his skill, but because of Word Bearer ineptitude at the last moment. Then you also have the subtle implication that Lorgar also would have totally destroyed Guilliman.

 

Imagine if this had Leman Russ being beaten up by Ahirman in Prospero Burns. The Space Wolf fandom would have exploded, I can assure you.

 

Exactly that.

 

I fear we all know the name of that abject heretic who has caused this rampant anti-Guilliman/anti-UM movement, which has festered so deeply that BL authors feel compelled to diminish characters within their canonical dimensions and even retcon entire events just to rectify one a**ho**'s codex.

This wouldn't suprise me at all. They know it may upset the Ultra fans, but make everyone else happy.

 

Imagine the backlash if they retconned the battle at the Lion's Gate spaceport, where the White Scars, going against previous fluff, using superheavy tanks and long range artillery fail to take it back. In a desperate gamble, they fall back and shoot with even bigger guns, but Khan gets brutally mauled by a Chaos Cultist. However it's ok, because they find a death star, activate it and blow up Chaos.

[Gree]

I would be inclined to agree with this. The Wolves ward themselves against 'Malificarum' anyway, wearing all manner of talismans and runes for protection. Those items, or at least the belief those items work, gives them a measure of protection.

 

I think characterising all this as 'Guilliman was beaten up by a marine' is doing a disservice to Guilliman and to Kor Phaeron in a sense. Kor was basically a channel for the power of much greater entities than a Primarch. Guilliman was taken totally by surprise by unheard of power, and don't forget he has pretty much lost his cool by this point and was, arguably, acting recklessly. Probably no surprise he got smacked a bit: he wasn't playing to his strengths.

 

Also: authors add peril. All the time.

 

As I said, you can make excuses and justify it. But at the end of the day it's still a Primarch being beaten up by a Space Marine. If they had Russ be beaten up by Ahirman, then I'm sure you could find some plausible reason of why he could do that, but it still would't prevent the fact that Russ got beaten up by a Space Marine. In fact Kor Phaeron's not even a full Space Marine, he's really just an enhanced human like Luther.

 

You had other Primarchs facing Chaos forces and Daemons, but did they ever get beaten up by a single Space Marine? Prior to this nobody would have seriously suggested that Kor Phaeron could have beaten Guilliman.

[MadDoc]

You had other Primarchs facing Chaos forces and Daemons, but did they ever get beaten up by a single Space Marine? Prior to this nobody would have seriously suggested that Kor Phaeron could have beaten Guilliman.

You gave the example yourself... Luther and the Lion.

 

Funny that Guilliman taking a hit from a Chaos augmented psuedo-Marine Sorceror/High Priest seems to be a big issue, and yet Luther Sorcerously suckerpunching the Lion doesn't seem to rate a mention.

 

A Chaos augmented pseudo-Marine going toe-to-toe with a Primarch is nothing new, the result was pretty much the same in this instance as well, the psuedo-Marine managed to put up a good fight but ultimately couldn't hold out against a Primarch. The major difference between the two being that the Lion hesitated before he struck down ('ripped the heart out of') Luther and so his traitorous former friend was able to unleash a last Sorcerous attack wounding him. I think given that Guilliman recovered as quickly as he did from Phaeron's attack he came out of things with his reputation pretty untarnished.

[Gree]

You had other Primarchs facing Chaos forces and Daemons, but did they ever get beaten up by a single Space Marine? Prior to this nobody would have seriously suggested that Kor Phaeron could have beaten Guilliman.

You gave the example yourself... Luther and the Lion.

 

Funny that Guilliman taking a hit from a Chaos augmented psuedo-Marine Sorceror/High Priest seems to be a big issue, and yet Luther Sorcerously suckerpunching the Lion doesn't seem to rate a mention.

 

A Chaos augmented pseudo-Marine going toe-to-toe with a Primarch is nothing new, the result was pretty much the same in this instance as well, the psuedo-Marine managed to put up a good fight but ultimately couldn't hold out against a Primarch. The major difference between the two being that the Lion hesitated before he struck down ('ripped the heart out of') Luther and so his traitorous former friend was able to unleash a last Sorcerous attack wounding him. I think given that Guilliman recovered as quickly as he did from Phaeron's attack he came out of things with his reputation pretty untarnished.

 

The battle between the Lion and the Luther is generally described as a mighty, long-drawn out fight, with the Lion deliberately holding back as to not hurt his old friend, but Luther still losing. Kor Phaeron takes Guilliman out in a mere three hits without Guilliman giving a single blow back in return while Kor Phaeron very deliberately spares Guilliman's life.

 

So no, it's not ''pretty much the same''. It's actually quite different.

[Marshal Rohr]

And when did you read Black Library's release about the Lion vs. Luthor? Because until you do it's just as valid an example as Guiiliman vs. KP.

[Gree]

And when did you read Black Library's release about the Lion vs. Luthor? Because until you do it's just as valid an example as Guiiliman vs. KP.

 

 

I read the Index Astartes release yes,

 

"The Primarch faced his former brother and knew that he was lost to him, that the dark power had destroyed the honourable man he had once been. The Primarch was a living god amongst men, but Luther had been elevated by the Chaos powers to be his equal in almost every way. The two warriors fought in a battle the like of which had never been seen before and has never been witnessed since. The ancient home of the Order was reduced to rubble in their epic battle as the Dark Angel fleet continued to bombard the planet, flattening the citadel of every remaining monastery. Caliban's surface began to crack and heave under the constant shelling, the fury of the Dark Angels blinding them to the devastation they were wreaking on their own world."

 

One is a length drawn out fight in which the Lion beats Luthur and deliberattely hesitatyes, the other is Kor Phaeron taking out Guilliman in three hits and then sparing his life.

[MadDoc]

The battle between the Lion and the Luther is generally described as a mighty, long-drawn out fight, with the Lion deliberately holding back as to not hurt his old friend, but Luther still losing. Kor Phaeron takes Guilliman out in a mere three hits without Guilliman giving a single blow back in return while Kor Phaeron very deliberately spares Guilliman's life.

 

So no, it's not ''pretty much the same''. It's actually quite different.

Only if you're not really familiar with the incident.

 

The only reference to the Lion holding back (deliberately or otherwise) is exclusively in reference to him hesitating before delivering the killing blow.

 

The fact that you mention that Luther managed better than Kor Phaeron (actually going toe-to-toe with a Primarch in a prolonged fight), leaves your complaint about Guilliman taking a beating from a High Priest of Chaos working in a Warp infused environment just a little hollow (an attack from which he recovered remarkably quickly anyway). As for Kor Phaeron's arrogance in thinking he could corrupt Guilliman (his supposed sparing of Guilliman's life), that worked out really well for him, right up until his heart was torn out by the guy he'd supposedly "taken out"...

 

I'd say Kor Phaeron "taking Guilliman out in a mere three hits" (though given his rapidly recovery from those hits I have to question your use of the phrasing 'taken out') is far better than the Lion's being mortally wounded by a single attack (and actually taken out of the fight). In all of your decrying of the fight, you singularly fail to address the simple fact that it ended with Guilliman tearing Phaeron's heart out of his chest, in spite of having supposedly been taken out in a mere three hits. If he was taken out (i.e. finished/no longer a threat), then how exactly is it that he was the one to land the final blow (not possible if he had been taken out) and the only one to walk away from the fight intact? ;)

[Conn Eremon]

I have to agree with MadDoc on the Guilliman vs. Kor Phaeron fight. At no point is Guilliman actually taken out during this fight. He gets sucker punched hard, far harder than he seemed to expect, that is for certain. But the reason we didn't get a Lion vs. Luther style clobberfest is because Kor Phaeron thought he had won. If he had realized that he hadn't truly incapacitated Guilliman as well as he might have thought, it's certainly plausible that the two would have had it out for a lot longer. Or maybe not. Maybe Guilliman wouldn't be at all prepared for a true life or death struggle and be dispatched at range, or maybe Kor Phaeron's newly acquired powers wouldn't have been able to stand up against a fully prepared Primarch and he'd be dispatched at hand. What we did see was Kor Phaeron hit Guilliman like a sledgehammer over the head, sitting the Primarch down, talking to him, then discovering he hadn't hit hard enough.

[Gree]

The battle between the Lion and the Luther is generally described as a mighty, long-drawn out fight, with the Lion deliberately holding back as to not hurt his old friend, but Luther still losing. Kor Phaeron takes Guilliman out in a mere three hits without Guilliman giving a single blow back in return while Kor Phaeron very deliberately spares Guilliman's life.

 

So no, it's not ''pretty much the same''. It's actually quite different.

Only if you're not really familiar with the incident.

 

I am quite familar with the incident.

 

The fact that you mention that Luther managed better than Kor Phaeron (actually going toe-to-toe with a Primarch in a prolonged fight), leaves your complaint about Guilliman taking a beating from a High Priest of Chaos working in a Warp infused environment just a little hollow (an attack from which he recovered remarkably quickly anyway).

 

How does it leave it hollow at all? Kor Phaeron downed him for three hits. Guilliman eventually mustered the strength to fight back, but Kor Phaeron could have easily killed him had he so choose. Both of them admit that. That is not a testament to Guilliman's skill in battle, but it s a testament of him to sucker punch well after a superior foe let him live.

 

Wheras with the Lion and Luther it was a drawn out slugfest, with the only way Luther can win is with a sucker punch. With Guilliman and Kor Phaeron, the Word Bearer beats in three hits and let's him live.

 

As for Kor Phaeron's arrogance in thinking he could corrupt Guilliman (his supposed sparing of Guilliman's life), that worked out really well for him, right up until his heart was torn out by the guy he'd supposedly "taken out"...

 

He could have killed him. Even Guilliman acknowledges that. It still doesn't change the fact that Kor Phaeron was cleanly superior to Guilliman in combat.

 

I'd say Kor Phaeron "taking Guilliman out in a mere three hits" (though given his rapidly recovery from those hits I have to question your use of the phrasing 'taken out') is far better than the Lion's being mortally wounded by a single attack (and actually taken out of the fight).

 

The Lion was taken down a single attack, but after a long fight were both had exchanged plenty of hits and only after the Lion had hesitated and spared Luther's life. Guilliman was taken down in three hits without getting a single one in, all in straight up combat. And he could have died had Kor Phaeron so chose. Even Guilliman points out that Kor Phaeron could have killed him, but he choose not to.

 

In all of your decrying of the fight, you singularly fail to address the simple fact that it ended with Guilliman tearing Phaeron's heart out of his chest, in spite of having supposedly been taken out in a mere three hits. If he was taken out (i.e. finished/no longer a threat), then how exactly is it that he was the one to land the final blow (not possible if he had been taken out) and the only one to walk away from the fight intact? ;)

 

As I already stated, Guilliman managed to do that because Kor Phaeron spared his life. He lived because his foe was merciful. If Kor Phaeron wanted Guilliman dead, then Guilliman would be dead. That is not a testament to Guilliman's skill, that is a testament to Kor Phaeron's overconfidence, but it does'nt change the fact that Kor Phaeron kicked his butt in combat.

 

I have to agree with MadDoc on the Guilliman vs. Kor Phaeron fight. At no point is Guilliman actually taken out during this fight. He gets sucker punched hard, far harder than he seemed to expect, that is for certain. But the reason we didn't get a Lion vs. Luther style clobberfest is because Kor Phaeron thought he had won. If he had realized that he hadn't truly incapacitated Guilliman as well as he might have thought, it's certainly plausible that the two would have had it out for a lot longer. Or maybe not. Maybe Guilliman wouldn't be at all prepared for a true life or death struggle and be dispatched at range, or maybe Kor Phaeron's newly acquired powers wouldn't have been able to stand up against a fully prepared Primarch and he'd be dispatched at hand. What we did see was Kor Phaeron hit Guilliman like a sledgehammer over the head, sitting the Primarch down, talking to him, then discovering he hadn't hit hard enough.

 

Guilliman was taken out. He recovered eventually, but he was taken out. Even Guilliman admitted that Kor Phaeron could have killed him.

[pingo]

What makes us think that Primarchs shouldn't be able to be taken out by someone or something lesser than they are anyway? Combat just doesn't work like that.

 

Primarchs are demigods, but they are far from invulnerable. Hence why they wear armour and get injured, and even killed. So what if Guilliman was almost killed by incredible warp power? Horus was almost killed by a lesser being wielding a magic blade (and, arguably, almost killed by an assassin's bullet), Fulgrim was 'almost taken out' (possibly ... ) by a deamon, Dorn was killed in an explosion (wow, how wonderfully epic ... ), Curze was killed by an assassin (deliberately, but still), and as has been said, the Lion and Luther is another one.

 

Hell, even the Emperor was almost killed by a very big Ork.

 

As for the point about if Ahriman took out Russ: well, yes, if you just pull something out of thin air with absolutely no context, then of course if sounds silly. However, if that was worked into a narrative then the author would provide a context and such a thing might make sense. That didn't happen, though, and McNeill took Ahriman's relationship with Russ in a different direction.

[DarkChaplain]

Just want to throw this in, since both Kor Phaeron and Luther are being referred to as Space Marines on here:

 

Neither of them is actually a full-fledged Astartes. They've got some treatment and some neat armor of their own, but they're not Space Marines.

I'd go as far as to say that Kor is the only one we can be sure of having twin hearts (correct me if I'm wrong, but I never read about Luther having them and the other organs).

While Kor got evil glares for being something of a half-breed, Luther is being described as "a head shorter than a space marine, though bulked by armor and robe" in Grey Angel as well.

So neither is actually up to par to vanilla-Captains like Abaddon, Typhon, Khârn or Garro. They need to draw their powers from skill, charisma or the powers of the warp, rather than pure physical strength and endurance.

 

The whole Kor vs Guilliman scene did not sit well with me. It made no sense. Kor Phaeron could not have been stupid enough to believe, to consider even for a nanosecond, that the great Roboute Guilliman, the Emperor's Golden Boy, who humbled the Word Bearers and is such a grand mastermind, could have ever turned to the traitors' side, DESPITE just having had huge parts of his legion slaughtered. Yes, sure, Warpcraft and all, but we've seen lesser men / marines resist the temptation even while they had nothing to lose by giving in at that time. Guilliman had already lost a hell lot, and there's never been something akin to harmony between Word Bearers and Ultramarines.

[Gree]

What makes us think that Primarchs shouldn't be able to be taken out by someone or something lesser than they are anyway? Combat just doesn't work like that.

 

Primarchs are usually portrayed as powerful demigods. We've seen them fighting and beating Great Daemons and Eldar Avatars before. Having Guilliman taken out by a Space Marine just makes him look weak, even if you can pull all sorts of justifications.

 

Horus was almost killed by a lesser being wielding a magic blade (and, arguably, almost killed by an assassin's bullet),

 

That in itself was rather implausible as well, given what we also see of what Corax and Curze do.

 

Fulgrim was 'almost taken out' (possibly ... ) by a deamon, Dorn was killed in an explosion (wow, how wonderfully epic ... ), Curze was killed by an assassin (deliberately, but still), and as has been said, the Lion and Luther is another one.

 

I don't recall Fulgrim being beaten by a daemon in a physical fight, Dorn's death has always been vague, Curze let himself be killed so that means nothing, and the Lion and Luthor at least had an epic fight with the Lion getting hits and ultimately getting the upper hand. Kor Phaeron took out Guilliman in three hits without Guilliman getting a single shot it.

 

Guilliman hard to sucker punch Kor Phaeron to do anything. And if you're forced to sucker punch someone that then doesn't really speak well of your combat skills compared to said person. And that was after Kor Phaeron spared Guilliman's life.

 

But again, you miss my point, you can pull all sorts of justifications and excuses, but that's what they are, excuses. At the end of the day it's still Guilliman getting kicked around by a single Space Marine who spared his life.

[Captain Idaho]

Kor Phaeron was not trying to instantly turn Guilliman into a Chaos Lord, he was trying to plant the seeds of Chaos infestation like what happened to Horus. It was hubris and underestimation rather than stupidity.

 

When you think about it, Kor Phaeron believed he had defeated Guilliman with his sorcerous abilities, yet learnt too late he was wrong. For him to believe he had defeated Guilliman infers the attack was extremely powerful and expected to defeat a Primarc, which speaks well of Guilliman's tenacity and toughness.

 

@ Gree: you have contradicted yourself in this thread. You were earlier arguing that the BL tales of the Heresy were the REAL stories whilst the other material was propganda/historical accounts/etc, but you are now using the IA articles and Codex accounts to assume a confrontation not covered in the Heresy series occurs a particular way. If you're using like for like sources, previously Guilliman wasn't even at Calth.

 

Anyway, I seriously don't see a problem with a conduit of Chaotic energy having the power to stun, injure or even kill an unprepared Primarch. Saying it's an assault from GW on fanboys is silly, considering how a few pages earlier Guilliman was described as being a warrior without peer and only matched AT BEST by a handful of his brothers.

 

And no, Ahirman wasn't in the same league as Kor Phaeron at this point. His brother-Captains were elevated by Chaos and their power was elvated beyond his, but then they were all corrupted for the effort and mutated and killed.

[Antarius]

The Lion was taken down a single attack, but after a long fight were both had exchanged plenty of hits and only after the Lion had hesitated and spared Luther's life. Guilliman was taken down in three hits without getting a single one in, all in straight up combat. And he could have died had Kor Phaeron so chose. Even Guilliman points out that Kor Phaeron could have killed him, but he choose not to.

Two things; first of all, I think a little bit of perspective is needed here. The real culprit is Abnett, who wanted a dramatic showdown, that was always destined to end up with Guilliman thrashing Phaeron. It's not that Kor Phaeron could "take Guilliman out in straight up combat" -that just goes against everything we've heard about the setting ever.

 

Secondly, there was no "straight up combat" there. It was "Warp Sorcery". Sure, "warp sorcery" may well be a bit of a literary cop-out since it can do whatever is needed whenever it's needed and doesn't really need to make sense, but the fact remains that "warp sorcery" was what was invoked to make that fight consist of anything but "and then Guilliman ripped out his heart" (which you may note is something he managed to do anyway).

 

Saying "Kor Phaeron can take out Guilliman in a straight up fight" is like saying "Loken is a better swordsman than Lucius since he beat him that one time in the training cage". It's obviously dependent on a mischaracterisation of the situation.

Sure, when Guilliman is taken unawares by sorcery, he's up the creek. When he isn't he's a total badass.

When circumstances change, outcomes change.

 

What makes us think that Primarchs shouldn't be able to be taken out by someone or something lesser than they are anyway? Combat just doesn't work like that.

 

Primarchs are demigods, but they are far from invulnerable. Hence why they wear armour and get injured, and even killed. So what if Guilliman was almost killed by incredible warp power? Horus was almost killed by a lesser being wielding a magic blade (and, arguably, almost killed by an assassin's bullet), Fulgrim was 'almost taken out' (possibly ... ) by a deamon, Dorn was killed in an explosion (wow, how wonderfully epic ... ), Curze was killed by an assassin (deliberately, but still), and as has been said, the Lion and Luther is another one.

 

Hell, even the Emperor was almost killed by a very big Ork.

 

As for the point about if Ahriman took out Russ: well, yes, if you just pull something out of thin air with absolutely no context, then of course if sounds silly. However, if that was worked into a narrative then the author would provide a context and such a thing might make sense. That didn't happen, though, and McNeill took Ahriman's relationship with Russ in a different direction.

Indeed.

I mean, I couldn't take Mike Tyson in a fair fight (Hell, I couldn't take the guy/girl at the counter in 7-11 in a fair fight) but I might manage it if I shot him in the face with a .44 -somehow I don't think his awesome boxer status would help him there.

Now, that obviously doesn't mean I'm some sort of Mike Tyson destroying badass and likewise I think people need to not think of a bunch of literary characters' "power levels" as something that's in any way objective. It's a tendency that probably comes from 40K being a game where it's pretty easy to evaluate who's best at what but it really doesn't translate well to either the real world or the world of fiction.

 

It's all about 1) what the author thinks makes for a dramatic story and 2) what circumstances are presented in order for the scenario to make sense.

 

Anyway, I seriously don't see a problem with a conduit of Chaotic energy having the power to stun, injure or even kill an unprepared Primarch. Saying it's an assault from GW on fanboys is silly, considering how a few pages earlier Guilliman was described as being a warrior without peer and only matched AT BEST by a handful of his brothers.

Yep.

 

We don't go "well obviously Batman shouldn't go down to some random thug with a piece of wood, he's much better than some random mook" when Batman is beaten down from behind and captured by the Joker's underlings. We don't see that as some sort of "assault" on Batman's objective "power level" either. We see it as a story element and I can't fathom why we can't see "the evil sorcerer uses evil sorcery and that phazes the demigod spaceman for a few ticks before he uses his Awesome to slaughter the villainous fool" in the same way.

 

Hell, even "real" mythology is full of stuff like that; we've got plenty of heroes, demigods, even gods being taken aback by sorcery (or even simpler means). Why can't the same thing happen in a 40K novel without it somehow "proving" that Guilliman is a complete pansy?

[Gree]

@ Gree: you have contradicted yourself in this thread. You were earlier arguing that the BL tales of the Heresy were the REAL stories whilst the other material was propganda/historical accounts/etc, but you are now using the IA articles and Codex accounts to assume a confrontation not covered in the Heresy series occurs a particular way. If you're using like for like sources, previously Guilliman wasn't even at Calth.

 

As we lack the current version of the Lion-Luther fight, I am using the account we have. I see no contridiction at all.

 

But if you are willing to chuck that ut, then yes I am willing to gnore an example of a normal Space Marine sucker punching a Primach, even though it's quite different than the Guilliman-Kor Phaeron fight.

 

Anyway, I seriously don't see a problem with a conduit of Chaotic energy having the power to stun, injure or even kill an unprepared Primarch. Saying it's an assault from GW on fanboys is silly, considering how a few pages earlier Guilliman was described as being a warrior without peer and only matched AT BEST by a handful of his brothers.

 

And then he has his butt kicked by a single Space Marine. I raised an eyebrow when I read that Guilliman got taken out in three hits without getting a single blow in when before they established him as this awesome badass. ;)

 

And no, Ahirman wasn't in the same league as Kor Phaeron at this point. His brother-Captains were elevated by Chaos and their power was elvated beyond his, but then they were all corrupted for the effort and mutated and killed.

 

Ah, yes Kor Phaeron is evidently better at warp sorcery than Ahirman. Never mind the fact that before now nobody would have seriously suggested that Phaeron would be better at warpcraft than Ahirman or any high-ranking Thousand Son.

 

But my point was not that Ahirman did that or that Ahirman could do that. My point was that this was essentially the same situation. The right hand man ofa a Primarch beating up a Primach. I'm sure you could have written as ''Wow! Ahirman is being boosted by Tzeentch!'' but it doesn't make that any less ridiculous or demeaning to Russ.

 

Prievously nobody would have seriously suggested that Kor Phaeron could beat Guilliman. Now that has happened people are moving in to try and justify it. Partially I think in at least due to the fact that Abnett is popular and well-liked by many people.

 

Two things; first of all, I think a little bit of perspective is needed here. The real culprit is Abnett, who wanted a dramatic showdown, that was always destined to end up with Guilliman thrashing Phaeron.

 

But that’s not quite what we got.

 

It's not that Kor Phaeron could "take Guilliman out in straight up combat" -that just goes against everything we've heard about the setting ever.

 

But that’s kinda what happened.

 

Secondly, there was no "straight up combat" there. It was "Warp Sorcery". Sure, "warp sorcery" may well be a bit of a literary cop-out since it can do whatever is needed whenever it's needed and doesn't really need to make sense, but the fact remains that "warp sorcery" was what was invoked to make that fight consist of anything but "and then Guilliman ripped out his heart" (which you may note is something he managed to do anyway).

 

He ripped out his heart after Phaeron spared his life. And yes, it was straight up combat, the two faced each other and tried to take each other out. Phaeron succeeded and decided to spare Guilliman’s life. It’s akin to Ahirman beating up Russ and then sparing his life and trying to turn him.

 

Saying "Kor Phaeron can take out Guilliman in a straight up fight" is like saying "Loken is a better swordsman than Lucius since he beat him that one time in the training cage". It's obviously dependent on a mischaracterisation of the situation.

Sure, when Guilliman is taken unawares by sorcery, he's up the creek. When he isn't he's a total badass.

When circumstances change, outcomes change.

 

As I said before, you can make up all sorts of justifications and excuses for why Guilliman lost. I’m not really interested in hearing those, because at the end of the day it’s still a Primarch getting kicked around by a single Space Marine.

 

We don't go "well obviously Batman shouldn't go down to some random thug with a piece of wood, he's much better than some random mook" when Batman is beaten down from behind and captured by the Joker's underlings. We don't see that as some sort of "assault" on Batman's objective "power level" either. We see it as a story element and I can't fathom why we can't see "the evil sorcerer uses evil sorcery and that phazes the demigod spaceman for a few ticks before he uses his Awesome to slaughter the villainous fool" in the same way.

 

Hell, even "real" mythology is full of stuff like that; we've got plenty of heroes, demigods, even gods being taken aback by sorcery (or even simpler means). Why can't the same thing happen in a 40K novel without it somehow "proving" that Guilliman is a complete pansy?

 

Batman has had a 70 year long history of varying power levels with dozens of different depictions in this last decade alone. Meanwhile the Guilliman-Kor Phaeron fight is a brand new thing that comes out of nowhere and uses a villain that many fans saw as a slimy weasel to beat a Primarch. Previously nobody would have seriously suggested that Kor Phaeron would beat Guilliman at all. Now that we have people are scrambling to justify it.

[pingo]

As I said before, you can make up all sorts of justifications and excuses for why Guilliman lost. I’m not really interested in hearing those, because at the end of the day it’s still a Primarch getting kicked around by a single Space Marine.

In other words: 'I have my belief and I'm going to ignore people who disagree with me'.

 

Dude, we're listening to you, and it's cool if we don't agree. Just don't enter a debate if you don't want to be challenged.

 

You seem very focussed on this being a 'physical fight', but I think it runs deeper than that. One thing that seems to run through 40K is anything is possible where the warp is concerned. That can equally be construed as a cop-out or key characteristic of the background depending on your point of view.

 

EDIT: I also think all this 'X would beat Y because he has Uber-power-level 17' is, no offence, really silly. A D-B wrote about it once, but I can't recall where. It's such a simplistic way of looking at things which not only removes any drama or nuance, but tends to neglect contextual factors and doesn't reflect how the world works (as silly as that sounds when talking about 40K).

 

Anyway, if you feel that Kor Phaeron shouldn't have been able to take Guilliman down, then that's cool and I can see why you would think that. It surprised me, but I must admit after I thought about it for a bit I was fine with it for the reasons mentioned earlier by myself and others. I can't see where you are coming from in saying things like this 'diminish' Guilliman as seems to imply an agenda on the author's part which seems highly unlikely to exist.

[Gree]

In other words: 'I have my belief and I'm going to ignore people who disagree with me'.

 

No, it's simply not relevant to my point. I already explained this repeatedly before.

 

Dude, we're listening to you, and it's cool if we don't agree. Just don't enter a debate if you don't want to be challenged.

 

You're missing the point.

[pingo]

You're missing the point.

I am?

 

Ok, can you please explain your point? In a PM would be fine if it would be irrelevent to the thread.

[Gree]

You're missing the point.

I am?

 

Ok, can you please explain your point? In a PM would be fine if it would be irrelevent to the thread.

 

As I've already attemped to explain several times before, I know you can find ways to justify Guilliman's defest. But it does'nt change at the end of the day a Primarch got taken out in three hits by a single Space Marine. Previously nobody would have seriously suggested that Kor Phaeron could beat Guilliman, now people are bending over backwards in an attempt to justify it.

[Antarius]

Ok, then. You've obviously made up your mind.

 

I really don't think you're responding to what people are posting though. I (and others) have given our reasoning why it's not a "straight up fight" and all you do is go "yes, yes it is!" and cast weird aspersions on our motives (did it occur to you at all that maybe we're not "scrambling to justify" anything? Maybe we just don't think it's ridiculous that sorcery is like, a really powerful thing in the 30K universe).

 

Seriously, I wrote a long post laying out my reasoning and your reply doesn't engage the substance of a single of my points, so why discuss it any further?

[Gree]

I really don't think you're responding to what people are posting though. I (and others) have given our reasoning why it's not a "straight up fight" and all you do is go "yes, yes it is!"

 

They faced off. They used all of their powers and abilites at their command to fight each other. Guilliman lost. I'm not sure what's so ambiguous here.

 

and cast weird aspersions on our motives (did it occur to you at all that maybe we're not "scrambling to justify" anything? Maybe we just don't think it's ridiculous that sorcery is like, a really powerful thing in the 30K universe).

 

Previously before this book how many people would have seriously suggested that Kor Phaeron could beat a Primarch in combat? Not many, I would hazard to say.

[Antarius]

Your edit aside, if "nuh-uh!" is engaging with the substance, I guess you did respond to my points...

 

Seriously "That's not what we got", "that's kinda what happened" "it was a straight up fight" and "I'm not interested" counts as substantive discussion now? I'm totally open to arguments, but how am I supposed to be convinced by that?

 

Plus you completely skipped over:

"Hell, even "real" mythology is full of stuff like that; we've got plenty of heroes, demigods, even gods being taken aback by sorcery (or even simpler means). Why can't the same thing happen in a 40K novel without it somehow "proving" that Guilliman is a complete pansy?"

For some reason that didn't even get an "I don't care because Guilliman sucks and he totally got beat fair and square even though he ended up killing the other guy".

[pingo]

As I've already attemped to explain several times before, I know you can find ways to justify Guilliman's defest. But it does'nt change at the end of the day a Primarch got taken out in three hits by a single Space Marine. Previously nobody would have seriously suggested that Kor Phaeron could beat Guilliman, now people are bending over backwards in an attempt to justify it.

I got it, I think what I said was relvent to that.

 

No one is denying that Guilliman was taken out/injured/beaten/etc. by a 'Space Marine', but that's a very narrow view of it. And that's what we've been trying to point out: we think there is more to it than just that simple soundbite (which, let's be honest here, is phased in a very loaded way).

 

I would also like to point out that I am not trying to justify the narrative as you claim, and am not some kind of apologist for Abnett or anything like that. I'm just writing about my interpretation of the event, justifying my interpetation if you like, which happens to differ from yours. Neither one of us is right, but we both are free to make our cases.

[Gree]

Your edit aside, if "nuh-uh!" is engaging with the substance, I guess you did respond to my points...

 

Seriously "That's not what we got", "that's kinda what happened" "it was a straight up fight" and "I'm not interested" counts as substantive discussion now? I'm totally open to arguments, but how am I supposed to be convinced by that?

 

I'm simply pointing out what happened. What do you want me to do? Make stuff up?

 

Plus you completely skipped over:

"Hell, even "real" mythology is full of stuff like that; we've got plenty of heroes, demigods, even gods being taken aback by sorcery (or even simpler means). Why can't the same thing happen in a 40K novel without it somehow "proving" that Guilliman is a complete pansy?"

For some reason that didn't even get an "I don't care because Guilliman sucks and he totally got beat fair and square even though he ended up killing the other guy".

 

How did I skip that over?

[Capt. Taurus]

I feel we are trailing off. My point is simply that Kor Phaeron, someone who is not even a true Space Marine, has no business kicking a Primarch (any Primarch) around like a punching ball, be he blessed by the forces of Chaos or not.

As Gree correctly pointed out there would be an explosion of outrage had Ahriman (a psyker hundredfold as powerful as Kor Phaeron) just so much as scorched Russ's hair, the Space Wolves players would be demanding Abnett's Head (and rightly so).

 

It simply goes against the most fundamental basic lore of the universe to have a physically second rate sidekick of one Primarch kick the crap out of another Primarch. In The First Heretic (attention spoiler ahead) Lorgar is almost killed by Corax and requires the intervention of Curze to stay alive. Lorgar puts up a pretty decent fight before being wrestled down, he manages to land blows against Corax and deflect many more before he is overwhelmed, this is Primarch against Primarch, equal against equal. Now please review the "fight" between Kor and Guilliman and judge for yourself how true to the lore that was.

 

I fear that the lore writing has become a pissing contest between the different branches of GW with each side trying to retcon what the other has written, to be fair it didn't start in BL but they've taken the bait and now fulfill their part in a vicious cycle. Let's hope the key actors in this find girlfriends before they manage to completely mess up what is left of the pre-MattWard universe.

 

cheers