Beasts and Difficult terrain.

[Morticon]

So, the beasts rule says "they are not slowed by difficult terrain".

 

What exactly does this mean in terms of movement and initiative?

 

I understand that they wouldnt roll for DT, but what about init 1?

 

The rule for charging through DT has changed from 5th and no longer requires a dice roll to activate. It simply says if a unit has to charge through DT its initiative is reduced to 1 blah blah blah.

 

Thoughts?

[Morollan]

So, the beasts rule says "they are not slowed by difficult terrain".

 

What exactly does this mean in terms of movement and initiative?

 

In terms of movement I think everyone is clear on what is meant. Initiative is another matter. A plain reading of the rules implies that they do not suffer the penalty to I when charging through difficult terrain. It does not explicitly state it though and in the absence of that statement unfortunately I think they are I1.

[Morticon]

Was hoping for that.

Im just pre-empting potential arguments from local daemon players :wallbash:

[rpnightsend]

While i know this isnt exactly RAW, i'd go with anything that ignores terrain not being reduced to I1. In terms of both fluff and function, something that moves through rough terrain as quickly as open ground shouldn't be penalized for It IMO

[Morticon]

Doesnt say they ignore it- just that they're not slowed by it.

[Raeven]

Doesnt say they ignore it- just that they're not slowed by it.

 

Well, how is being penalised to I1 not being slowed?

[nurglez]

Lets get both rules next to each other.

 

On page 22, charging through difficult terrain "if at least one model in the charging unit moved through difficult terrain as part of its charge move, all of the unit's models must attack at Initiative step 1."

 

page 48. Beasts: "Beast's can move up to 12" in the movement phase. Beasts are not slowed by difficult terrain (even if charging)."

 

So by RAW, yes they strike at I1, as they are not slowed by difficult terrain but unless they manage to make it disappear, they are still moving through it.

[Morticon]

Doesnt say they ignore it- just that they're not slowed by it.

 

Well, how is being penalised to I1 not being slowed?

 

Hey Im with that line of thought- its why I posted the question.

I think the argument is that slowed refers to speed of movement.

I do think it deserves a bit more discussion though.

 

Nurglez, any idea of what "not slowed by difficult terrain" means?

[Raeven]

Well, answer this question. Does a pile in that moves you into difficult terrain, from a charge that did not move through difficult terrain prior to pile in, put you at I1?

[Spacefrisian]

BTW, can beasts and cavalry (and bikes) now go up in ruins and such, i couldnt find any mention of them not being able to. (please give a page number if you know the answer)

[nurglez]

Slowed to me means movement, does a lash whip slow down enemies or does it reduce their initiative?

[dswanick]

Slowed to me means movement, does a lash whip slow down enemies or does it reduce their initiative?

Counter to that : there are numerous times when a model striking at a lower initiative is said to be "striking slower" than higher initiative models.

[nurglez]

True. However, the rule tells us that anything moving through difficult terrain will strike at I1, and assault grenades specify that they counter this, while beasts ignore the movement penalties (i feel).

 

There is no concrete ruling here, I can see both sides I'm just fighting for the one I feel is right :D

[breng77]

BTW, can beasts and cavalry (and bikes) now go up in ruins and such, i couldnt find any mention of them not being able to. (please give a page number if you know the answer)

 

Beasts can, bikes and cav cannot, I believe these rules are in the ruins seciton I don't have the pg number though.

[Jehoel]

BGB page 98

Ruins

Moving Within Ruins

Only certain troops are capable of clambering to the upper levels of ruins. Accordingly, only Beasts, Infantry, Jetbikes, Skimmers and all types of Jump and Jet Pack units can move on the upper levels of a ruin - and only if the model can physically be placed there.

The bolding is from the book.

[Raeven]

True. However, the rule tells us that anything moving through difficult terrain will strike at I1, and assault grenades specify that they counter this, while beasts ignore the movement penalties (i feel).

 

There is no concrete ruling here, I can see both sides I'm just fighting for the one I feel is right ;)

 

Grenades are different because they ARE slowed by difficult terrain. So you are still slowed, but you shake up your opponent enough by making them take cover from your grenades that you put yourself at even footing when the fighting occurs. i.e. You still roll the Difficut Terrain test with Grenades. It just eliminates the Init penalty.

 

Counter that with, their movement is not slowed but they still suffer Init penalty? It doesn't make sense that they are not slowed in their movement but still slowed in their attack.

 

 

 

Again, does a Pile in move that puts you into Difficult Terrain, from a charge that did not move through difficult terrain, put your attack at I1 or does it prevent Difficult Terrain from having any affect?

 

Because a Pile In is not slowed by Difficult Terrain either.

[nurglez]

Well, the reduced initiative for charging through terrain only effects you when you charge through difficult terrain.

 

You do get cavalry with frag grenades.

 

You could imagine that while the beast isn't slowed by it, it still has to navigate it. So it can always move its normal distance but it has to watch where it puts its feet.

It just feels wrong to me, but as I said above t could be a hang up from 5th.

[Raeven]

You could imagine that while the beast isn't slowed by it, it still has to navigate it. So it can always move its normal distance but it has to watch where it puts its feet.

It just feels wrong to me, but as I said above t could be a hang up from 5th.

 

But it doesn't have to watch it's feet. It's got a natural ability (via special rule) that allows it to traverse difficult terrain at normal speed and pass all dangerous terrain tests. Beasts in particular should have the advantage in difficult terrain. They are not slowed and can move through cover freely allowing them to get the jump on opponents (without the same special rules) in said cover.

 

Bikes/Jump don't have that ability. So they move fast, but are reckless and might kill themselves because they have to take a Dangerous Terrain test.

[Spacefrisian]

BGB page 98

Ruins

Moving Within Ruins

Only certain troops are capable of clambering to the upper levels of ruins. Accordingly, only Beasts, Infantry, Jetbikes, Skimmers and all types of Jump and Jet Pack units can move on the upper levels of a ruin - and only if the model can physically be placed there.

The bolding is from the book.

 

 

Thank you kindly good sir.

[DarkGuard]

You see I'm sitting on the fence here, I can see points to both sides. nurglez is right in saying that the Beasts rules only explicitly cancel out the movement penalty, and as you're still moving through difficult terrain you're I1. But you see, to me that feels wrong. I feel that the rules were written for them to not be effected by difficult terrain, and with Move Through Cover it means they aren't effected by terrain at all. So why be effected by that one thing? And of course, striking at I1 does mean they're slowed by terrain. I can see both sides, but my head says they strike at normal initiative at the moment, it could be swayed though.

[Lysere]

From a RAW perspective I feel this one is clear. Notice for Jump infantry (using the jump pack), bikes, and cavalry, they never move through difficult terrain. They may deal with some dangerous terrain, but that is it. Beasts on the other hand still have to move through the terrain, and the rule is quite clear as to when they strike at I 1. Thinking about it though, isn't being forced to strike at I 1 count as being slowed? Something that beasts can not have happen to them because of terrain? I personally would be on the side of beasts not striking at I 1. Then again, I don't own any beasts.

[Seahawk]

Since GW is stupid in writing rules (seriously, all they had to write was "Beasts are not affected by Difficult Terrain"), what we have is:

 

"Beasts are not slowed by difficult terrain (even when charging)."

 

That's all we have to work with, and it ain't much. So we start looking around for examples as to what this may mean. I've found a couple:

 

"Units making a Consolidation move are not slowed by difficult terrain..." (p.27)

"Fall Back moves are not slowed by difficult terrain..." (p.30)

"Difficult terrain slows down models wishing to move through it..."

"...the unit is still slowed down as described above" (p.90)

 

This is just for various movement purposes, as nothing else is going on at the time these actions happen. When charging through DT, if doesn't even say "slowed" by it or anything of that nature, until you get to the Initiative step:

 

"These moves follow the same rules as moving charging models, except that they are not slowed by difficult terrain" (p.23)

 

This curious little sentence potentially produces another I-step/attack quandary in relation to this thread. Let's assume a squad of space marines charged through cover without grenades. These models "must attack at I1". Since Pile In is "not slowed by DT", does that then mean that you Pile In at I4 but attack at I1? Or Pile In and attack at I4? Or Pile In and Attack at I1? In any case you don't roll extra dice for the movement.

 

It's the exact same question as the OP but with a different frame. The wording for Beasts and Pile In is the same: "not slowed by difficult terrain".

 

I believe the last of my quotes for page 90 above clinches the deal: Beasts don't roll for DT but strike at I1. Being slowed by terrain is a definable thing which involves extra dice for movement.

 

 

 

As an aside, with the Initiative description on page 2, it says the lower the value, the slower the model, and vice versa. There's an argument to be made, then, that receiving a lower I score "slows" the model, and that Beasts and Pile In ignore it...

[Raeven]

Yep, the real dilemma is what they mean by "is not slowed down by..."

 

I still stand by my argument that Jump Troops that use their packs to jump charge into combat do not move "through" difficult terrain and still get regular Initiative, which is balanced by the fact that they have to take a Dangerous Terrain test.

[Morticon]

Good find Seahawk.

 

And good argument.

 

Sold here.

[Raeven]

So Beasts, who move faster than anyone else in difficult terrain, still suffer a slow initiative?