Thousand Skulls on the Throne of Sons

[Charliemachina]

Hi all.

 

I'm attending the Throne of Skulls tornament in November. It's 1500pts and I intend to take a pure Thousand Sons list. I believe that by November we will have the new Chaos Marine book. I would like to use this thread to gather thoughts as to how I can make a list that has a strong Thousand Sons theme but is also able to take on all commers and complete the kill against what will inevitable be a number of highly compeative 6th edition builds.

 

I would like input on:

- How to use the units effectively.

- How to compose the list to threaten all commers

- How to ensure I can take and hold objectives

- Strengths of the army

- Weaknesses of the army

- How to maintain the army theme

- How to make the most of the abundance of Psychic powers

 

So for my army composition is-

3 x 9 Thousand sons including Sorcerer (deployed on foot)

1 x (Counts as) Flying Daemon Prince with Mark of Tzeentch (exact loadout up for debate)

 

This takes me to approxamately 1100pts

 

Possible further additions:

- I believe two of the upcomming Dragon Flyers may have a lot of potential to assist this build and with

200pts to spend on each one they should pose a significant threat. If they are cheaper (which if rumors are true I doubt) I can always simply get three.

 

Thoughts on the list so far:

The Thousand Sons will provide durable anti infantry power and objective grabbing potential.

The Thousand Sons will lack speed to adapt to changing situations so will have to be deployed very carefully.

The Flyers and Daemon Prince will have to be relied on to provide a significant anti-flyer/vehicle threat.

The Thousand Sons will provide a horrific level of threat to units with 3+ saves.

The army cannot overwatch and does not have a strong assualt capability.

The number of Psychic characters will provide alot of flexibility but also a significant vulnerability if any opponent has any specalist anti Psycher equipment.

 

Cheers in advance

 

Charlie

[*Furyou Miko]

Fluff-wise, a Tzeentch Sorcerer would also be a good addition.

 

Anti-psi isn't really something you're lacking, what with three level 2 sorcerers on the field already.

 

You're probably best off using two of them with a power from the rulebook. Pyromancy can give your Aspiring Sorcerers a powerful counter-assault boost with Flame Body.

[Charliemachina]

So far Pyromancy is my favorite set of powers.

 

Oh.....I forgot about denying the witch...the army will be very good at this....awesome.

 

I'm more worried about the Dark Eldar item that melts Psychers minds or Runes of Warding.

I have a sorcerer model on a disc on a Daemon Price sized base....ultimately I am happy to swap what he is or isn't as it suits me and if by some miricle I find myself with 150ish points to spend then another Independent character it will be.

 

cheers

 

Charlie

[Excessus]

The rumours about TS in the new codex states that they'll be relentless as long as the sorcerer is alive, and otherwise SnP. So as long as the sorcerer lives they can overwatch! :) (also I think they were getting a bit cheaper)

 

 

Speaking of psychic powers, if the TS keep their lvl 2 psykers in the next codex I'd go for telepathy. A chance for puppet mastery, invisibility or the #6 one(no codex infront of me), which all are awesome force multipliers, and in worst case scenario taking the primaris powers that is awesome against low Ld hordes...

 

 

Then again, we'll get god-specific and unaligned charts in the codex anyway so no use choosing now really before we have seen them...

[Charliemachina]

Thousand Sons going down in cost and being able to fire overwatch would be very useful. The risk of the sorcerer being sniped would be hight though. I hope there will be an option to get the Sorcerer a 2+ save.

 

Soulfire is nothing to dismiss (free hits are nice) but it dosn't seem all that useful.

 

I've clocked telepathy as a useful choice. The Primis power has potential to put some wounds on units and others can be very useful.

 

I havn't seen a definate answer as to weather Aspiring Sorcerers are:

- Lvl 1 Psychers with the ability to use two powers a turn (and therefore can only select one power).

or

- Lvl2 Psychers (and therefore can select two powers)..

 

I look forward to seeing what our Godspecific choices would be and it would be great if we are level 2 then we could pick from more than one discipline.

 

cheers

 

Charlie

[Zeratil]

Remember that in the new codex it looks like thousands sons won't be a troops choice unless you have a Lord or a Sorcerer with MoT as an HQ. 9 Thousand Sons w. an Asp Sorc looks to be 230 points, although I would find points for Rhino's if you can so long as it fits the theme of your list.

 

Daemon Princes are apparently more expensive now, but make an excellent counter assault threat, so far I've found they are an absolute terror in challenges.

 

The main thing to think about is how you're going to get some anti-tank into your list, Rubrics are very good anti-infantry unless you're up against terminators, and I agree with Charlie* that Telepathy is the way to go, good powers and the primaris is an excellent terminator (and any other infantry) killer. Oblits are getting more expensive I hear, and havoks less, so havoks w. ACs may be a good way to go. There is also the predator AC/LCs which is now rather good with the boost to lascannons and with Armour 13 it's tough to take down. Cultists will also likely be a good buy as a backfield objective holder, we'll have to see what they're options are.

 

Flyers are going to be a big issue, the Dragon thing sounds like a mostly anti-air thing, which means it could be something of a mixed bag, great if flyers are around, terrible if they're not. If the september FAQs/Codex give you some anti-flyer outside of the dragon I would consider leaving it at home, it sounds expensive and pure thousand sons have never been cheap to begin with.

 

The other elephant in the room is allies, there are two real choices for Thousand Sons I feel, daemons and guard. Daemons give you access to the new screamers and flamers, both of which are fairly tasty, the screamers especially so as they shore up your anti-tank and your counter assault, flamers are nice too, but a little expensive and don't fill as needed a role. Horrors are distinctly meh for their price, and are essentially a small tax on fielding screamers in pure Tzeentch. Guard are just good, nice cheap HQ and Troop options (who get melta and sturdy transports) and some killer units. Vendattas are the most broken unit in the game at the moment (Ripping that honour from the psyfleman dread with the new edition), psyker battle squads are HILLARIOUS combined with telepathy - 36" range to lower leadership by the number of sanctioned psykers in the squad (so 8), then use the telepathy primaris power to inflict an average of 10 wounds with no armour or cover saves allowed, what's that Billy? The mean old Thousand Son killed your entire unit of MEQs? Oh dear. Of course this won't always work because of psychic defence, but that's what your AP3 bolters are for.

 

At the end of the day though lots of things are unknowns for now, marks on vehicles will be interesting. So far they sound very cool and different from the infantry versions. Maulers could make good counter assault units over princes or screamers. The new land raider may be awesomesauce etc etc. Also I'm obviously basing this on the available rumours so pinch of salt etc.

 

 

 

 

*Also Aspiring Sorcs are mastery level 2 at the moment, but I'm sure they'll be 1 in the new codex as the mastery 2 is a quirk in the new rules, in the new dex MoT apparently only gives you an extra mastery level for HQ choices.

[Charliemachina]

230pts would be excellent.....i'd rather stock up on killing power over adding Rhinos.....for 230pts I could even have a 4th unit of Thousand Sons.

 

I do like Daemon Princes but looks like I might need a Sorcerer. The model on a disc I have can be either I just need to make sure whatever incarnation he has he is on the correct base.....no point in providing a bigger target than necessary. It would be nice to have both but I doubt the points will be avlaible for that.

 

Psychic Scream as a Primus power is excellent and matches the role of our lovely AP3 bolters.

 

I think I need to see the new codex before I decide what anti-tank/anti-air option I go for. I agree the list will need some long range killing power and Psychic powers arn't going to be enough to fill this need. I like the idea of the Flyer but we will have to wait and see what role it fills.

 

I'm hoping to avoid allies as I have 2000pts + of Tzeentch Daemons and one reason to build this pure Thousand Sons army would be to combine with the Daemons at higher points levels.

 

I think letting us spam lvl 2 Psychers is naughty and such shenanigans will not be allowed in the new codex.

 

cheers

 

Charlie

[GreatEscape_13]

My advice is: don't be afraid to take non-Thousand Sons in a "pure" list. Throwing in units like a Vindicator or all-lascannon Predator can give you a huge "threat" magnet to the force, which can draw fire away from your other units. Just because it isn't Thousand Sons marked, doesn't mean it should be overlooked. I would definitely suggest the all-lascannon Predator in this case, as it gives a rubric marine-heavy list a good vehicle-killing complimentary unit.

 

I think the same philosophy might lead you to consider Bikers and Raptors as well (particularly Raptors now with Hammer of Wrath). The can take an Icon of Tzeentch, which makes them "Tzeenetchy-enough" for your purposes. They won't be true rubric marines, but they would still fit--and they give the army a faster option.

 

That said, my experiences in 6th edition games have thus far seen armies that sell out to one strategy to be highly limited. For instance, you'll probably want some squads in Rhinos while others form a slowly advancing firebase--but not either extreme of all transports or no transports. Having a varied force is critical to success, and thus "theme" lists like the one I think you're pursuing need to still be diversified as best as they can.

 

Cheers.

[Excessus]

I havn't seen a definate answer as to weather Aspiring Sorcerers are:

- Lvl 1 Psychers with the ability to use two powers a turn (and therefore can only select one power).

or

- Lvl2 Psychers (and therefore can select two powers)..

I think it's on page 66 in the rulebook, in older codexes, psykers have the power level decided by how many powers they can cast each turn. MoT makes that 2, thus they are lvl 2.

 

However, they only have the option to buy a single spell, but it means he can cast power 2 spells or a non-warpfire power 1 spell twice each turn, and/or use his force weapon together with a power 1 spell each turn(probably not very often though).

 

Also, against most opponents he will DtW on a 4+!

[Charliemachina]

Last time I attended Throne of Skulls I faced these 1750pts lists:

 

- Orks with Lootas, Boys, Killa Kans, Gazskull and a battle Wagon full of mega armoured Nobs.

- A Vulkan Hestan list with tanks, speeders and of course a shed load of melta and flamer

- A blood angel all flyer list with Death Company and three assualt squads.

- A space wolf list with mech and a variety of infantry.

- A space wolf all infantry list lead by Ragnar.

 

Now the points value will be different but if I think of the strengths of my list vs these lists I think

that will be a good way of exposing the weaknesses, Strengths and areas for consideration for the list.

 

- The Mega Armoured Nobs and Gazskull would be a threat I could deal with with lots of massed Psychic Scream and bolter fire despite the 2+ SV's

however currently I lack a means of effectively hurting mech even with the hull points mech killing bonanza that is 6th.

 

- I would be out ranged by units like Lootas they could put alot of wounds on my troops before I could hurt them back.

 

- Vulkans list would hurt me as my Thousand Sons are sadly likely to be pretty much on par with most marines in assualt although the sorcerers will be potentially quite deadly in challenges as they all have force weapons. This abundance of high AV mech would also be a serious issue for me as i'd struggle to crack it open to get to the lovely 3+ SV chaps inside.

 

- The flyer list would be no problem as the marines would die to my AP3 and due to the need to hover and only move 6 to be able to assualt out of an assualt transport the reach of these Storm Raven units would be low. Plus the Storm Ravens would have to come in from reserve which means i'd have time to deal with the threats peice meal to some degree.

 

- The first Space Wolf list would only be a problem in that it has Mech and that is clearly an issue I need to address.

 

- The second Space Wolf list would die, die, die, die, die as it would be giving me a wonderful present of lots of 3+SV's.

 

- Objective grabbing will be a problem as speading out my units to capture objectives will mean they arn't local enough to each other to give each other assistance with horrible units such as the mega nobs.

 

So my additions to a list that is currently only 3 units of 9 Thousand Sons would have to provide the following in order of importance.

 

> The ability to crack open Mech

> The ability to counter assualt

> The ability to down flyers

> The ability to have troops be mobile enough to capture objectives and respond to threats or opportunities.

> The firepower and range to reach across the battle field and hurt the enemy in the early game

 

Alot of responsibility for just a few units but i'm sure ill figure it out.

 

I'm willing to consider everything and obviously what is in that new codex will have a massive impact on my choices.

 

It will be interesting to see how early 6th edition 1500pt lists differ from late 1750pt 6th edition lists.

 

cheers

 

Charlie

[Fediuld]

Please do not forget that the minimum size is 4 Marines + Sorcerer and can field 6 troops choices :D

 

If someone is going to field 2 x 9+1, might consider for bit extra field 4 x 4+1. With the units operating in groups, and the sorcerers powers complementing each other. (eg. 1 pyro, 1 tele).

 

Also I would advice Charliemachina to go to the tournament with the army is more comfortable with, and has played for months.

 

Nothing scares a 'veteran' army, who's tailored, over the course of months and dozens of battles.

On the other hand brand new 'untrained' armies, might look good on paper, but when on tournament is very late to alter.

[Excessus]

Though by november the new codex will be out and all information we have now about the current TS won't be as useful...

[Zeratil]

Please do not forget that the minimum size is 4 Marines + Sorcerer and can field 6 troops choices ;)

 

If someone is going to field 2 x 9+1, might consider for bit extra field 4 x 4+1. With the units operating in groups, and the sorcerers powers complementing each other. (eg. 1 pyro, 1 tele).

 

Also I would advice Charliemachina to go to the tournament with the army is more comfortable with, and has played for months.

 

Nothing scares a 'veteran' army, who's tailored, over the course of months and dozens of battles.

On the other hand brand new 'untrained' armies, might look good on paper, but when on tournament is very late to alter.

 

 

But...but...Thousand Sons come in squads of nine including a sorcerer. What are these numbers four and five that you speak of? I've certainly never heard of them....;)

[Charliemachina]

yeah this whole excercise and any conclusions drawn are going to be highly dependant on the new codex but I reckon it's already got me thinking very much along the right lines towards what is needed for the list to be competative and how to play it!

 

It has to be 9 in a unit if I break that ill be disgusted with myself (even though I did exactly that on my all Tzeentch Daemon list in 5th edition).

 

I know the quicker I can get my list ready and practice, practice, practice the greater a threat I will be....but as i'm set on a theme and know ill be short on time this thread at least will allow me to get as prepared as I can so I can make full use of my play testing time.

 

I'd like to do well but i'm not so fussed about ranking i'd just like to play a different list to what i'm used to and give all my opponents a good, hard, fun and interesting game.

 

cheers

 

Charlie

[Fediuld]

Please do not forget that the minimum size is 4 Marines + Sorcerer and can field 6 troops choices ;)

 

If someone is going to field 2 x 9+1, might consider for bit extra field 4 x 4+1. With the units operating in groups, and the sorcerers powers complementing each other. (eg. 1 pyro, 1 tele).

 

Also I would advice Charliemachina to go to the tournament with the army is more comfortable with, and has played for months.

 

Nothing scares a 'veteran' army, who's tailored, over the course of months and dozens of battles.

On the other hand brand new 'untrained' armies, might look good on paper, but when on tournament is very late to alter.

 

 

But...but...Thousand Sons come in squads of nine including a sorcerer. What are these numbers four and five that you speak of? I've certainly never heard of them....:)

 

When I am back at home on Friday, I will check both the Codex and the new Rulebook. But I can put my hand on fire, the Thousand Sons units are Sorcerer + 4-19 marines. (Sorcerer is mandatory)

(5-20 all the rest CSM, but 5-10 the chosen, 3-10 termies).

 

Can someone confirm before I burn my hand? :D

 

I also remember that on previous codex (3rd edition as carried over in 4th), they were 5-20, sorcerer was an upgrade, not mandatory.

[Zeratil]

No need to check your codex :D You're quite correct with your numbers, but I still believe in using my Sons in sacred numbers when I can (so squads of nine) even though there's no benefit to sacred numbers any more, thus the joke.

[incinerator950]

My advice is: don't be afraid to take non-Thousand Sons in a "pure" list. Throwing in units like a Vindicator or all-lascannon Predator can give you a huge "threat" magnet to the force, which can draw fire away from your other units. Just because it isn't Thousand Sons marked, doesn't mean it should be overlooked. I would definitely suggest the all-lascannon Predator in this case, as it gives a rubric marine-heavy list a good vehicle-killing complimentary unit.

 

I think the same philosophy might lead you to consider Bikers and Raptors as well (particularly Raptors now with Hammer of Wrath). The can take an Icon of Tzeentch, which makes them "Tzeenetchy-enough" for your purposes. They won't be true rubric marines, but they would still fit--and they give the army a faster option.

 

That said, my experiences in 6th edition games have thus far seen armies that sell out to one strategy to be highly limited. For instance, you'll probably want some squads in Rhinos while others form a slowly advancing firebase--but not either extreme of all transports or no transports. Having a varied force is critical to success, and thus "theme" lists like the one I think you're pursuing need to still be diversified as best as they can.

 

Cheers.

 

I haven't been a lore scribe in years, but what's to stop you from saying your detachment had more Vehicular firepower, or a Sorcerer who had more tactical insight then Sorcerous (sp?) might?

[Excessus]

I find the sacred numbers a bit too limiting...and frankly a bit unfluffy!

 

There is no way in hell that a squad can keep to it's holy number without having a cadre of "reserves" ready to jump in as soon as someone dies...

 

 

Perhaps it has been a prolonged conflict, perhaps the sorcerers haven't had time to resurrect their fallen rubrics?

[Zeratil]

I've always liked the sacred numbers, but I don't really mind that they took out the benefits given the new 1/2 per 5/10 weapon options for most units, it would suck to have to choose between the two. I don't see any problems with taking a lot of vehicles either. Hopefully the MoT on things like preds and rhinos does something good, but if it doesn't I don't feel compelled to take it, I plan to use oblits/maulers in my army modelled to looks like Legio Cybernetica robots (to explain all the weapon options). Possessed and similar can be failed recruits to legion perhaps or heavily mutated Thrall Wizards. The wonderful thing about chaos and the chaos legions in some ways is the lack of stuff that's been written about them, so you can make up things for different warbands to make them unique. Perhaps one band still has Prospero Spireguard trained up, another has still has some old Cybernetica robots etc. Some may be more dedicated to Tzeentch than others, or has more of a vehicular armoury stashed away. My personal impression of the Planet of Sorcerers has always been that after the Rubric the most powerful sorcerers split up across the planet and built up their own fortresses and forces, jealously guarding the resources and knowledge they have acquired down the millennia and only really cooperating when Magnus descends from his Sauron Tower and demands they do so.

 

As for list building one thing I forgot to mention was the defiler, it's supposed to be getting a small points increase, but gains the daemon rule and re-rolls to wound and pen when shooting. Given that defilers already have an ordnance weapon as well as the blast weapon changes that means you may get to roll two dice to pen vehicles, and re-roll them. If it loses the ordnance rule, then you still get to re-roll and you can shoot an autocannon too. Either way it's gotten quite a bit better if this stuff is true, and it wasn't too shabby to start with imo.

 

The main weakness with Thousand Sons I feel will be the sorcerers, losing the sorcerer looks like it will prevent you over-watching, which AP3 bolters love to do! There's another rumour stating that chaos characters have to accept challenges, which is a real weakness for sorcerers, they cost more (and do more for the squad) than almost any other sergeant and it will really suck to lose them. This means that positioning in your units will be really important*. My advice is that you get together your army and practice with a friend at this. Tell him to try and kill off your sorcerers during the game while you try to protect them. Concentrating on this is a good way to get used to the new wound allocation rules. Read up on the Look Out Sir! and the Glorious Intervention rules, you'll need them. Apparently the new book is stuffed full of wargear options, so there may be some stuff there you can buy to offset the challenge problem, if there's something that makes your opponent think twice about challenging you (like Necron mindshackle scarabs) it'll be a good investment I feel. Most of the wargear is unknown at the moment, although I'm sure we'll hear more soon. There's also supposed to be an option for something that lets you re-roll up to your mastery level in dice on your psychic tests. Really good for avoiding perils and for using Focussed Witchfire powers such as puppet master (although the best way to use that is to target vehicles).

 

Lastly for now there is Ahriman, who apparently has had a cost decrease, is mastery level 4 and has access to 'almost all lores'. I'll bet my favourite hat that this means he gets the normal chaos ones plus Divination, hopefully he has something similar to WHFB Loremaster. Divination is the tastiest psychic discipline with super-guide and super-doom and importantly for KSons the 'ignore cover' and 'fire overwatch at full BS' powers. in 1500 points he'll likely be a tough fit, but divination is damn nice for thousand sons (and almost anyone else).

 

 

*This can also work in your favour, deep striking into terrain is much less risky now for power armoured units with a 1/18(?) chance of failure, apparently Icons still prevent scatter too, so deep striking things in to flank infantry units and kill off special weapons and sergeants will be pretty viable.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

A couple of predators with autocannon and lascannons are decent long range support, if you take rhinos, give them havok launchers (I am moving towards a footslogging force myself).

Autocannon havoks are golden, and terminators with combi melta/plasma and either heavy weapon and a few fists can be a good unit to help against things thousand sons are week against. Possibly some terrain with the anti air guns?

[Charliemachina]

Hi all

 

Based on rumors from the Blood of Kittens Network regarding the new Chaos Codex here is what i'm guessthinking now regarding my army composition. I have approxamated point values

 

Dragon flyer 12/12/10 Vector Strike Str 8 Heavy 4 170pts

Dragon flyer 12/12/10 Vector Strike Str 8 Heavy 4 170pts

Dragon flyer 12/12/10 Vector Strike Str 8 Heavy 4 170pts

 

9 Thousand Sons inc Sorcerer 244pts

9 Thousand Sons inc Sorcerer 244pts

9 Thousand Sons inc Sorcerer 244pts

 

Subtotal: 1242

 

Leaving me with 258pts to

- Upgrade the flyers if beneficial

- Upgrade the Sorcerers

- Build a strong Tzeentch Character

 

This list as it stands would:

 

> Have the ability to crack open Mech

> Have the ability to down flyers

> Have the firepower and range to reach across the battle field and hurt the enemy in the early game

 

> Lack the ability to counter assualt

> Lack the ability to have troops be mobile enough to capture objectives and respond to threats or opportunities.

 

Possibly I could migrate the last two weaknesses with the kitting up of the Tzeentch character, use of Psychic powers and choice of other options

but the list still requires significant thought and a codex to clarify those options.

 

I enjoy the possibility that Mark of Tzeentch and Iron Halo combine to give a 3++ Invunerable Save and I hope I could take this for the Aspiring Sorcerers as well.

 

Here is the link for the rumors:

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2012/08/11/rumor-has-it-csm-codex-rumor-drop-part-2/

 

cheers

 

Charlie

[Fediuld]

Hi all

 

Based on rumors from the Blood of Kittens Network regarding the new Chaos Codex here is what i'm guessthinking now regarding my army composition. I have approxamated point values

 

Dragon flyer 12/12/10 Vector Strike Str 8 Heavy 4 170pts

Dragon flyer 12/12/10 Vector Strike Str 8 Heavy 4 170pts

Dragon flyer 12/12/10 Vector Strike Str 8 Heavy 4 170pts

 

9 Thousand Sons inc Sorcerer 244pts

9 Thousand Sons inc Sorcerer 244pts

9 Thousand Sons inc Sorcerer 244pts

 

You are trying to build a tournament army, based on rumours?

[Charliemachina]

Just getting my thoughts in line....because of the limited time between release and the Tornament!

 

I'm pretty much going to have to buy the codex make my choices, buy the models I don't have, make them, paint them then

play test, play test, play test and this exercise has already been useful for me regarding planning the army and hopefully any choices explored now will make

the final choices easier to make.

 

Cheers

 

Charlie

[Charliemachina]

Just getting my thoughts in line....because of the limited time between release and the Tornament!

 

I'm pretty much going to have to buy the codex make my choices, buy the models I don't have, make them, paint them then

play test, play test, play test and this exercise has already been useful for me regarding planning the army and hopefully any choices explored now will make

the final choices easier to make.

 

Cheers

 

Charlie

[Zeratil]

I would give serious thought to including at least one of the 'shooty daemon engines' if they are as described by BoK. 8 Str 8 shots at BS3 (I assume) has better average damage than a psyfleman dread, albeit with a less reliable odds range (no TL). The additional weaknesses I see in that list are:

 

Nothing is firing at enemy mech on turn 1

No tanks to create cover for your rubrics

No way to deal with hordes

 

If you want to go for 3 flyers I would suggest rhinos. Use your first turn to blast your troops to midfield and smoke, then when the flyers start coming on turn 2, get out your rhinos, shoot with flyers, shoot with rubrics then use the rhinos to LoS block the rubrics from return fire.

 

I'm hoping the mark of tzeentch for vehicles follows the FW pattern and gives benefits to shooting, if it does I would drop the 3 flyers and take 3 of the shooty daemon engines, double the firepower, 50 points less each and no flyer wants that many S8 shots aimed at them even at BS1.