Deathwing assault

[HJL]

So im looking at taking a deathwing army against a space wolf opponent for a game and it crossed my mind that i cant deep strike my entire army any more.

 

if i take 5 squads of terminators i must have 2 of them start on the field because you cannot place more than half of your army in reserve unless it MUST be held in reserve at the start of the game.

 

as deathwing assault is optional that would suggest that you dont have to hold them back.

 

thoughts??

 

i really hope im reading this wrong because that basically blows.

 

thanks

[Polythemus]

You just answered your own question. You can only reserve half your army with ICs counting toward that limit independent of there associated units. Therefore in army of 5 deathwing squads plus belial, you have 6 units, and could only reserve 3.

[HJL]

well that sucks

[Cactus]

Adding three predators and two dreadnoughts will allow you to keep Belial and all the Deathwing units in reserve. :D

[HJL]

Not within 1500pts alas

[Cactus]

I thought that might be an issue!

[Tamwulf]

Yeah, pretty much the end of the Death Wing Assault in 6th.

[Andy.P]

well, I sat down with my mates and discussed this issue.

 

This is what we came up with. I would expect it to be FAQ'd

 

Drop Pods (and contence) do not count towards your 50% allocation. They have the drop pod assault special rule (c:sm).

Now as our deathwing assault shares the same rule to the drop pod assault rule we decided that you could put all in reserve but have to enter via deep strike. Otherwise the 6th ed da FAQ would have stated this rule should be scratched. We also believe that this would be the case for any unit/army that have specific deep strike rules.

[BigGumbo]

this has been discussed on another thread, where the general consensus seemed to be that the TDA entry which states that terminators "may always start the game in reserve" outbids the 50% limit, albeit that any reserved DW squads would still count towards the 50% rule when considering whether any non-terminator units can be reserved. I.e. you could 100% reserve a 100% DW army but if you had a 75:25 DW:RW split, you could still reserve all of your DW but, if you did so, you wouldn't be able to reserve any of your RW.

[Andy.P]

this has been discussed on another thread, where the general consensus seemed to be that the TDA entry which states that terminators "may always start the game in reserve" outbids the 50% limit, albeit that any reserved DW squads would still count towards the 50% rule when considering whether any non-terminator units can be reserved. I.e. you could 100% reserve a 100% DW army but if you had a 75:25 DW:RW split, you could still reserve all of your DW but, if you did so, you wouldn't be able to reserve any of your RW.

 

 

This sounds like how it was spose to be writen

[Harleqvin]

It is kinda weird how it is written dealing with the new edition. They need to FAQ it so it is more clear for the current edition. Just because of both sides will say what they believe. Making things clearer is always good =D

[BigGumbo]

This sounds like how it was spose to be writen

True, for us. But then if it's only SM armies that are going to have this apparent conflict, then it would be a bit of a convoluted BGB wording...

[EPK]

well, I sat down with my mates and discussed this issue.

 

This is what we came up with. I would expect it to be FAQ'd

 

Drop Pods (and contence) do not count towards your 50% allocation. They have the drop pod assault special rule (c:sm).

Now as our deathwing assault shares the same rule to the drop pod assault rule we decided that you could put all in reserve but have to enter via deep strike. Otherwise the 6th ed da FAQ would have stated this rule should be scratched. We also believe that this would be the case for any unit/army that have specific deep strike rules.

 

Yea, I'd say this is more of a Rules as Intended interpretation, because the DWA rules actually tell you to refer to the deep strike rules in the rulebook - "...you may choose to put it on the table or in reserve, as described in the Deep Strike Scenario Special Rule."

 

Drop Pod assault is worded different as DPs are automatically in reserve by default. So really you are comparing apples in oranges in this case.

 

The strongest case to be able to reserve all of your Terminator units is the TDA entry for now (mentioned above).

[Eeps]

I expect there'll be something about this in the next round of FAQs which should be forthcoming shortly. It's pretty much the same as all pod armies. That and deathwing are certainly V in keeping with the fluff of the way the background works, so I imagine they'll be allowed.

 

You can get Belial + command squad + another TH/SS squad in reserves then start on te board with a squad of shooty terms, a speeder, a pred annihilator and a pred destructor on the board at 1500 which is what I'm doing at the mo and it goes pretty well as people have to decide what to shoot at. Reserving stuff is way less of a gamble now as well with the changes to rolls. Swings an roundabouts I guess

[march10k]

Well, you can always hope that the codex gives us some kind of limited exemption. Like, "as long as your entire army is deepstrike-capable, you're exempt from all rules related to the 50% thing." Since you DWA on your half of turn one, at most, you'd be violating the "having stuff on the table" thing for one player turn, your opponent's first. I wouldn't think that's too terribly broken, certainly tamer than some of the cheese granted to others. Hell, even if you have to be 100% TDA to get the benefit, that would satisfy most...

[Ajax Tlamunus]

Deathwing Assault: When you deploy a Deathwing unit you may choose to put it on the table or in reserve, as described in the Deep Strike Scenario Special Rule (even in missions that do not use the Deep Strike rule).

 

 

Preparing Reserves

When deploying their armies, players can chose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so.

 

Deathwing Terminator Squads are not a unit which must start the game in Reserve, they may choose to be in Reserve. End of story.

 

Adapt and overcome. A 100% pure Deep Strike army was rarely a good idea anyway.

[Andy.P]

Deathwing Assault: When you deploy a Deathwing unit you may choose to put it on the table or in reserve, as described in the Deep Strike Scenario Special Rule (even in missions that do not use the Deep Strike rule).

 

 

Preparing Reserves

When deploying their armies, players can chose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so.

 

Deathwing Terminator Squads are not a unit which must start the game in Reserve, they may choose to be in Reserve. End of story.

 

Adapt and overcome. A 100% pure Deep Strike army was rarely a good idea anyway.

 

I always thought the dex overides the rule book? If so I would read that as its optional still??

[Ajax Tlamunus]

Yes, the codices general "trump" the rulebook when there is a difference between them. That doesn't apply here, as there is no conflict. A Deathwing squad may choose start play in Reserve, and may Deep Strike even in missions that do not allow it. This in no way overrides, conflicts, or disagrees with the croe rulebook's rule that only half of your units can be kept in Reserve.

[EPK]

Yes, the codices general "trump" the rulebook when there is a difference between them. That doesn't apply here, as there is no conflict. A Deathwing squad may choose start play in Reserve, and may Deep Strike even in missions that do not allow it. This in no way overrides, conflicts, or disagrees with the croe rulebook's rule that only half of your units can be kept in Reserve.

 

Again, it is NOT the DWA entry that overrides it.

 

It is the simple fact that the codex entry for TDA states that they may "...always start the game in Rerserve and arrive using the Deep Strike rules...". It's page 53 in C:DA. I assume it's in every marine codex. The key word is "always".

 

I'd say for now, there is still enough gray area for this to be debatable.

[Tamwulf]

No other army in 6th Edition of 40K can be placed entirely in reserve. The only reason this rule is in effect is so no player stands around for 1-2 turns waiting for his opponent to show up on the table to play.

 

The argument allowing Deathwing to break this basic rule is a fuzzy, grey interpretation of a rule written in 4th Edition for a 5th Edition rules set. :P

 

This is 6th Edition; don't be That Guy.

[Dark_Master]

Well I wouldn’t be ‘that guy’, as I would Deathwing assault first turn, and I would start with at least a few Ravenwing units on the board with Teleport homers.

 

We don’t get ‘Drop Pod Assault’ (And I can’t see us getting it), denying us full ‘Deathwing Assault’ would be really nerfing us in comparison.

 

DM

[Ajax Tlamunus]

Yes, the codices general "trump" the rulebook when there is a difference between them. That doesn't apply here, as there is no conflict. A Deathwing squad may choose start play in Reserve, and may Deep Strike even in missions that do not allow it. This in no way overrides, conflicts, or disagrees with the croe rulebook's rule that only half of your units can be kept in Reserve.

 

Again, it is NOT the DWA entry that overrides it.

 

It is the simple fact that the codex entry for TDA states that they may "...always start the game in Rerserve and arrive using the Deep Strike rules...". It's page 53 in C:DA. I assume it's in every marine codex. The key word is "always".

 

I'd say for now, there is still enough gray area for this to be debatable.

 

That's a rather selective reading of the codex -- which as has been pointed out is already pretty old -- but the full sentence reads: Any model wearing Terminator armour can be teleported onto the battlefield. They may always start the game in Reserve and arrive using the Deep Strike rules(.)

 

As the Core Rulebook says "(u)nits that must start the game in reserve" are the only ignored for the purposes of working out the 50% restriction, Terminator units do not count. A unit whihc may always chose to start in Reserve is not something that must always start in Reserve.

 

There is only a grey area here if you want to deliberatly conflate "may always" with "must always," and that's really kinda silly.

[BigGumbo]

Out of interest, I wonder how many people did frequently employ a zero-deployment, full DS strategy for their DW in 5th Ed.? I've only ever seen it as a viable option in kill point games and even then my poor-to-awful scatter/dangerous terrain rolling made it an unnecessarily risky venture. I can think of a few Blood Angels players who might be a bit upset that their Descent of Angels builds won't work any more, for this reason...

[EPK]

Yes, the codices general "trump" the rulebook when there is a difference between them. That doesn't apply here, as there is no conflict. A Deathwing squad may choose start play in Reserve, and may Deep Strike even in missions that do not allow it. This in no way overrides, conflicts, or disagrees with the croe rulebook's rule that only half of your units can be kept in Reserve.

 

Again, it is NOT the DWA entry that overrides it.

 

It is the simple fact that the codex entry for TDA states that they may "...always start the game in Rerserve and arrive using the Deep Strike rules...". It's page 53 in C:DA. I assume it's in every marine codex. The key word is "always".

 

I'd say for now, there is still enough gray area for this to be debatable.

 

That's a rather selective reading of the codex -- which as has been pointed out is already pretty old -- but the full sentence reads: Any model wearing Terminator armour can be teleported onto the battlefield. They may always start the game in Reserve and arrive using the Deep Strike rules(.)

 

As the Core Rulebook says "(u)nits that must start the game in reserve" are the only ignored for the purposes of working out the 50% restriction, Terminator units do not count. A unit whihc may always chose to start in Reserve is not something that must always start in Reserve.

 

There is only a grey area here if you want to deliberatly conflate "may always" with "must always," and that's really kinda silly.

 

No, "always" is the only term here that counts and it is a definite with or without "may" or "must" - the "may" simply gives them the option as opposed to "must". I never said they did not count towards the 50%, in fact I said the opposite. They count towards the total, but can still be put in to reserve beyond it. I know it doesn't make sense, but lots of things don't in this game. I see it as a loophole, and probably kind of a dirty one at that.

 

So, the rule stats you can choose not to deploy half your army, putting them in reserve. You put half your terminators in reserve per that rule. But then the codex tells me that anyone in TDA "may always" be in reserve - so I may put the rest in there anyway. It is telling me that I always have the option to do so.

 

Sorry, I still think there is an argument for it in that one little word as far as RAW goes. If they take out "always", it would fix the whole problem.

 

As BigGumbo alluded to, it's probably really a moot point. I'm not a fan of DS anyway and out of respect of my gamer friends, maybe I'll just follow the 50% rule if it actually does come up. We can just agree to disagree.

 

 

No other army in 6th Edition of 40K can be placed entirely in reserve. The only reason this rule is in effect is so no player stands around for 1-2 turns waiting for his opponent to show up on the table to play.

 

The argument allowing Deathwing to break this basic rule is a fuzzy, grey interpretation of a rule written in 4th Edition for a 5th Edition rules set. :lol:

 

This is 6th Edition; don't be That Guy.

If you go by this loophole, the other Marine codices would be able to - is it not written the same in all of them (except SWs)? Like I said, I might not even use it, but a gray area is a gray area.

 

On the other side of the argument - It's not even really that bad for those of use that still want to use DWA per the 50% reserve rule. At around 1980 points, you can still fit Belial + 5x DW in reserves while deploying say 2x Preds w/LC sponsons, 3x Typhoons and a Vindi to top it all off. That's 12 units, 6 in reserve, Belial +3 Dw units in first turn.

 

Though at 1850 you loose the Vindi and are only having Belial + 4xDW, 2 coming down first turn. For 1500 you could drop a squad of DW and a Pred and still reserve 4 and again get Belial and 2 down on turn 1.

 

It's not horribly broken, if you want to use it. Just a slight nerf, I'd say. Though I guess it depends on what you like to do with your army.

[Venemox]

No other army in 6th Edition of 40K can be placed entirely in reserve. The only reason this rule is in effect is so no player stands around for 1-2 turns waiting for his opponent to show up on the table to play.

 

The argument allowing Deathwing to break this basic rule is a fuzzy, grey interpretation of a rule written in 4th Edition for a 5th Edition rules set. ^_^

 

This is 6th Edition; don't be That Guy.

 

 

Who? The guy that plays Daemons? Or a dedicated Drop Pod army? Both of them MUST start 100% in reserve.

 

Oh, and both C:SM and C:BA termies 'may always start the game in reserve'. So out the window with the '4th Edition for a 5th Edition rules set'.