Brotherhood champion

[Creamywynch]

Just reading over the brotherhood champion rules in my codex and considering if anything has changed for him in the context of sixth edition and the slight nerf to combat. Is he worth taking now at all, even in fluff games? I think not. 100 points for poor attack stances and re-roll to hit for unit when he assaults (this bit is not too bad). Frankly I cannot see the point of this character at all. Am I missing anything that I should consider in using him?

[Raus]

With the addition to challenges, he is slightly better. Not a whole lot, and still a sub-par choice. For pure melee power, it's better and cheaper to bring a grenade-inquisitor.

[breng77]

Yeah, he got better perhaps, but he is still pretty bad, especially because an inquisitor with psychic powers can now give you re-rolls to hit, in shooting and assault.

[thade]

Challenges have been huge around where I play; they can really make a difference in a melee, locking up that killer IC and/or Sergeant with a Power Fist both makes the difference in who wins the combat and can save you the pain of watching six of your guys go down to some berserk enemy model.

 

One of the Bro Champ's stances allows him to re-roll his saves...which - in melee, with a NFS - are 2+/3++, making him a very tough nut to crack. If he does go down, he has his psychic parting shot power as well.

 

He's a cool model, and a GK IC that's pretty affordable (compared to the others); he's also one of the few models in the codex with Artificier Armor, and the only non-named GK IC that's not in TDA (so he can ride with your boys in a Rhino). Codex not in hand and I'm still pre-coffee, but I'm pretty sure he has the SM Chaplain-esque effect of giving re-rolls to your attached unit's attacks on the charge. He himself re-rolls his hits and/or wounds (again, pre-coffee, somebody chime in here and correct me, please) and he's got his other two stances...one a "whirlwind" attack for engaging hordes on his own, the other for enemy characters.

 

He's also very, very fluffy. I like him, personally. I wish he had more than one wound, but for a re-rollable 2+/3++ tarpit that can "shift modes" into a killing machine, I guess I need to make that concession.

 

EDIT: Clarification

[the jeske]

cortez costs the same , is tons better . and there is no way after taking cortez the second option should be bro champ over a GK GM or GK libby .

[breng77]

With the exception of challanges a 55 point standard inquisitor with Divination is better (significantly so), throw on the grenades, and some power armor, and you still have a better force multiplier and slightly cheaper. (you get re-rolls to hit in shooting and assault, funky effects from grenades, and he can hide much better in this edition.

[Inquisitor Fox]

Inquisitors don't have I5, WS7, and a S4. They also cannot get a 2+/3++ save, and are insta-gibbed easier due to their T3. Yes they have more wounds, but when even an Relic Blade instagibs you it doesn't matter how many wounds you have. The Brotherhood Champion can also do the Rapeir Strike and have a good chance at toasting a model before anything else happens. Challenge your opponent, Rapier Strike, done. Even better if you charged because then it's d3+1, and yu get rerolls to hit. Put them with a heavy combat unit of Paladins or Purifiers and give Them rerolls to hit too in addition to utterly owning an Independant Character, or completely denying them the ability to do anything by using Blade Shield. Note, Heroic Sacrifice just needs a to hit roll, and if you charged you're already rerolling to hits that turn ;) I'm almost of the opinion that if the Brotherhood Champion had 2 wounds he'd be too good.

[thade]

I still want him to have two wounds. <3 But otherwise I agree with you entirely.

[breng77]

Except I need to fail a 2+ to get instagibbed, otherwise I just throw the wound onto just another guy, and keep going, so tell me how you are reliably insta killing my inquisitor?

 

Raipier strike sure, if you are fighting a Monsterous Creature(does this include Flying Monsterous creatures, I would say yes but debatable) or an IC (and then you get what an average of 2 attacks (3 on the charge, against a model who is likely better in CC than you are), if not then no Raiper strike for you, at which point I challange you with my sargent and you hope you kill me with your one attack, or turtle up and hope your squad wins for you.

 

He is not horrible but a 55 point inquisitor is better in every respect except challanges, a 93 point inquisitor, is better in almost every way.

 

BHC gives you a decent challanger (Decent I(better against IC/MC), bad attack stat, Great WS, Decent S, great saves...poor wounds.) and he gives you re-rolls to hit on the charge.

 

The inquisitor can buff 1 unit within 12" with re-rolls to hit on shooting and assault (better than just on the charge), better psychic defense, on the charge or when charged you get charged, you drop the T of your opponent, and possibly inflict another effect, He has more attacks, (4, 5 on the charge), and a force weapon...Most things that instant kill him swing at I1. He confers stubborn to his unit. Furthermore he is useful outside of a challange.

 

Again BHC is usable in 6th, but, he is far from a great GK HQ. For me the only stock HQ that I think is worse is the Brother Captain. Grand Master IMO is better, Inquisitors, better, Libby, better.

[Vash]

Except I need to fail a 2+ to get instagibbed, otherwise I just throw the wound onto just another guy, and keep going, so tell me how you are reliably insta killing my inquisitor?

 

In a challenge, there is no Look out Sir! (page 64 "Fighting a Challenge")

Thus, in a challenge, the inquisitor will bite the dust if there is a S6 weapon or higher.

 

But then again, in the unit the inquisitor joins, there should be another character to take challenges. But you never know, there might be situations where the sergeant of the unit is dead.

[breng77]

or I decline the challange, because I simply don't need the inquisitor to fight a challange....you only are required to accept challanges if your unit is a solo character (so if the inquisitor is not part of a squad)

 

so I will never get picked out unless I decide I might win the challange, or I fail a 2+ LOS.

[Vash]

or I decline the challange, because I simply don't need the inquisitor to fight a challange....you only are required to accept challanges if your unit is a solo character (so if the inquisitor is not part of a squad)

 

so I will never get picked out unless I decide I might win the challange, or I fail a 2+ LOS.

True that :blush:

 

I wont say much more, since I am using Inquisitors my self ;)

But I do love the idea of the BHC's

[Chairman_woo]

@Breng77: I think your missing the point here somewhat. If the Inquisitor is the only "charachter" in the squad & you dont't expect to need his extra killyness (3-4 s6/8 ap2 I1 hits) then fair enough you can just decline the challenge and let the rest of the squad get on with it. If however you either A. Have another charachter in there like a GM you cant afford to have :cussing out of fights, or B. the CC is going to be close enough to make every little bit count. Then the BC provides something no one else in our army can really do i.e. eat just about any challenge that might come the squads way and free up the GM or Libby or whatever to wail away on the squad safe from the inevitable mutual I1 instagib match's, or bouncing of a 2+sv your now ap3 sword/halberd/whatever is now.

 

The only other way of doing this other than declining challenges (leaving the enemy to chose one of your charachters not to attack i.e. the best one) is by throwing the Justicar (or a random Paladin) to the wolf so to speak. A Justicar or Pally with a warding stave isn't a bad choice there I suspect, leaving you free to troll scary challengers with that 2++, but the rerolling 3++ on the BC is statistically better than the single 2++ (1/5 fails vs 1/8) and if he does bite it he stll gets to take the enemy with him on a 3+ (potentially with re-roll) ignoreing eternal warrior/everliving into the bargain I believe?

 

If you just want the Inquisitor for his Psycannon & divination and generally just being a cheap HQ sweet, take him instead stick him with a squad that either A. Dosen't need his extra punch in CC or B. Dosen't want to get into CC in the 1st place.

 

If you want something to add extra oomph to an agressive squad like GKT, or further to that you have a big expensive IC like a Grandmaster in such a squad already and want a reliable way to keep him out of AND win nasty challenges (and buff the entire squad in CC to boot) then the BC is your homeboy!

 

If you have taken rad & stroke grenades, or poured pts into your libby to make a big squad super super killy they will basically have a bullseye painted on their heads, and for the 200+ pts you can easily be paying being sniped early by a bad challenge matchup is not an acceptable outcome! At the very least you will very often be sending the justicar to eat that thunderhammer/fist/Monsterous creature/anything ap2 and or instant death, but between perrils, directional wound allocation and multiple rounds of combat you wont always be able to rely on him still being around when you need him. So unless its a unit of paladins (who are all eligible for challenges) it might often pay dividens to protect your already sizable investment with a little extra to get a BC.

 

Failing that for 100pts he makes a very nice compliment to any big agressive GK squad, if your going to be getting into CC alot then the BC is better than the Inquisitor as simply declining challenges is a recipe to get your squad smashed up sooner or later, sometimes you have to do something to keep that nasty IC away from the rest of your squad, the BC can keep this up for turn after turn barring bad luck wheras the Justicar is unlikely to get past round 1, maybe round 2 with the stave. And he dosen't get to remove said nasty IC from the table no questions asked on a 3+ (with possible re-roll).

 

I might even go so far as to say that the BC is a great compliment to the Inqusitor himself. They are both cheap enough and the BC counteracts the Inquisitors only significant weakenss (that he's t3 & only has a 5++).

[thade]

Additionally, the Brotherhood Champ is a GK IC melee beast in power armor...not in Terminator armor. That means he can perform Sweeping Advance while still having some mighty saves.

[breng77]

Again I never said he was bad, but he is only better than a 100 point inquisitor in very few sitiuations. IF I take either a BHC or OX inquisitor, that model is going into a more hammer style unit (to make use of re-rolls) In every case the inquisitor is better outside of CC, in CC the inquisitor buff the squad more with psychic power + grenades (+more attacks in HtH). Sure I can get challanged by an IC or character but here is the thing, with the exception of ICs/characters with good I stat and force weapons/S6+ weapons,. the inquisitor has a good chance of winning the challange. You also say that a 3++ re-rollable is better than a 2+, sure, but you are paying 100 points for that and doing no damage in the challange, a justicar with staff, is much cheaper, and nearly as good. Like I said he is decent, but with 1 wound what happens when he dies in shooting, or fails that re-rolled save (it happens more than you think), and he buffs your army less than any IC in the book other than perhaps the Brother Captain.

 

If you want to run him, that is fine, but he is not the best choice in most cases.

[thade]

I still like him. :P

 

The 2+/3++ re-rollable means he's not swinging, but he could hold down a full assault squad on his own while his unit goes off and engages another unit while he's tangoing. He's a tarpit...if you're a close-range fighting PA-only army, I can see him being a good time. 2++ is good, 2+/3++ re-rollable is substantially better. Instead of dying 1 out of 6 throws, he's dying...ug, making me do stats here...5 in 6 chance he succeeds, plus (1 in 6 chance he fails) * (5 in 6 chance he yet succeeds) = 0.83 + (0.16 * 0.83) = 0.97 he makes his 2+ = he is probably not going down. (I think that's right, it's not my forte.) That's why you're paying 100 points for a 1 wound model. That 1 wound model is a bamf.

 

I run Vanguard and never use Hammernators, so I'm used to some other differences between termies and PA in melee...smaller bases can squeeze through smaller gaps (between terrain elements or other models), can be hidden from LOS more easily, and are engaged by less models in a pig-pile. These things that come up a lot if you're actively looking to pick fist-fights in 40k, which - for me - is most cases. He's extremely durable for a PA'd model...ludicrously so.

 

Also, he allows for some fun conversion opportunities in an effort to make him stand out. ;) Still not sure what I'll do, haha, but he's on the docket for my next pass.

 

EDIT: clarification

[breng77]

Well, I assume most challange targets will deny him an armor save, so it is a 3++/3++, which ammounts to him dying 1/9 saves, so it is 1/3rd better than a 2++. Sure if he is getting a 2+ re-roll he dies 1 in 36, but even then against certain squads like orks he will eventually die. He has some nice tricks, and can find a place for play in armies, but arguing that he is on par with the better HQ choices in the book is a mistake.

 

As for breaking him off...that works until he fails a charge, at which point he dies.

[thade]

90% chance of failing a 3++ rerollable is 1 out of 10 wounds will kill him...but that's a tiny, tiny difference, I'll grant you. (Especially when it's me rolling; I fail 2+ saves with staggering consistency.) Still, that's better than 1 in 6 for the single 2++, and more durable than a termie.

 

Naturally he'd eventually die, but the thing to keep in mind is that - if he's solo - his squad should be very close at hand, tearing apart some other unit, with the plan that they charge into save him within two player turns. (With only one Power Klaw in the unit, he'll be rocking that 2+ re-rollable for most of his time in there.) This is also his worst case situation. More typically were I to split him from his unit, I'd send him solo into a tactical squad to tie them up, while his unit engaged something else. (Other tacticals, assault team, Devs, whatever.) With that 3++ re-rollable he could lock up a Dreadnought or any nasty melee-centric IC for a turn or two.

 

There are too many variables at play here for me to so easily write him off. Also, for my first year of playing, everybody told me that Vanguard were a waste of points and the dumbest unit ever. I don't hear that so often anymore. :P He may be the underdog, but he's far from useless.

 

EDIT: typo

[breng77]

Precisely he is an underdog, you can find a use for him, but you need to try harder than you will for other "more optimal" HQ choices.

[number6]

The BroChamp has always been a good choice for a GK army HQ. Always! He's cheap. He can potentially hold up an entire assault. He can take down virtually any model in the game. I mean, who wouldn't trade 100 pts to remove, say, Abaddon? Or Mephiston? Or a SW Wolf Lord on a TWC mount? Or any of a number of other killy HQ chars that have inundated 40K since 5e more than four years ago?

 

And now we have challenges. Hell yeah, bring the BroChamp along! I'd make him challenge every time, and otherwise let him accept any challenge every time. You have nothing to lose, and everything to gain.

 

The guy's only become better in 6e, and he was already one of the better HQ choices we have.

[Seahawk]

Agreed!

[Inquisitor Fox]

Not to mention fluffy as heck. His entire fluff roll is to escort and protect the Brother Captains and Grand Masters in battle, to act as their personal shield and take challenges in their place. That's exactly how he's best used and played, and ironically that's exactly what his fluff says. Win-win as far as I'm concerned :)

[thade]

I fail to see a reason to not field this guy, haha. Especially if you run Troop heavy. Four or more Troop units (terminators or Strikes) and you can take four HQs if you're up at 2k or more. That means you get your GM or Bro-Cap, you get your Librarian, you get your Inquisitor...and hey, why not take that Brotherhood Champion to wander around with one of those guys. The Inquisitor would certainly appreciate the Champion stepping up constantly in his stead.

 

EDIT: a pretty funny typo. sorry you missed it.

[breng77]

sure with double force org why not (except that at 2k that is a hefty chunk of your army.)

[the jeske]

I fail to see a reason to not field this guy, haha. Especially if you run Troop heavy. Four or more Troop units (terminators or Strikes) and you can take four HQs if you're up at 2k or more. That means you get your GM or Bro-Cap, you get your Librarian, you get your Inquisitor...and hey, why not take that Brotherhood Champion to wander around with one of those guys. The Inquisitor would certainly appreciate the Champion stepping up constantly in his stead.

only with 4 HQs you would probably want to do cortez/GM/libby/termi inq a champion gives absolulty nothing to the list . same [or worse] . how is he better then inq bringing another divination to the list , a libby bringing good GK powers or a GM buffing units . besides If someone wants a challange dude for one of his units ha can take a staff justicar . almost same effect and no HQ slot wasted.

 

Other tacticals, assault team, Devs, whatever.

if your rolling tacticals and devs in hth , then it probably doesnt matter if the champion is or isnt there because the sm player already lost . this is a pure win more option in this example . RAS in sm are not used . RAS in BA are too fast to catch with a champion [or again all his units are already tied up in hth , so he is again win for GK with or without BC].

 

I mean, who wouldn't trade 100 pts to remove, say, Abaddon? Or Mephiston?

both AP3 , both high cost, both rarly used in 6th because of the nerfs . one of them a lot faster then the BC so charging mefo isnt so obviouse.

 

Or a SW Wolf Lord on a TWC mount? Or any of a number of other killy HQ chars that have inundated 40K since 5e more than four years ago?

only a TWC lord hammers him in a single turn on avarge due to ID . + is again faster then the champion and has to run alone with no other dude to take the challange.