Brotherhood champion

[Inquisitor Fox]

Or a SW Wolf Lord on a TWC mount? Or any of a number of other killy HQ chars that have inundated 40K since 5e more than four years ago?

only a TWC lord hammers him in a single turn on avarge due to ID . + is again faster then the champion and has to run alone with no other dude to take the challange.

You're forgetting Heroic Sacrifice. All it has to do is hit, and if the Brotherhood Champion charged he gets a reroll as its still the first fight phase. Doesn't matter about AP, doesn't matter about wounds or armor saves/invuln saves. If the attack hits, both models are removed.

 

Thus the trading 100 points to remove their big scary character/model.

[thade]

A few comments on your points there. First, there are tournaments local to me that do not allow special characters, and games where people ask we not field special characters, and - honestly - I don't much like special characters, so I seldom field them. Besides, Coteaz is a punk and everybody uses him. He's unoriginal and has obvious applications. He's trite and boring.

 

A justicar is not "almost the same" by any definition of that phrase I accept. 2++ and 2+/3++ rerollable are pretty darn different (as demonstrated above). For around 2x the cost of a Justicar with a Warding Stave, you get something that's almost invincible.

 

Mephiston is still a rampaging, terrifying beast. He wasn't good against terminators to begin with, so the AP3 "nerf" isn't really that much of a nerf. Moreover, now that most power weapons are AP3, he gets his 2+ save against them...his lack of an invuln save is no longer as big a factor. He will still eat units of marines/orks/pick-your-infantry. He's still around.

[worloch]

However, if you run at less than 2k, the HQ slots are just about as competitive as our Elite slots.

 

Grandmaster brings Grand Strategy, and 'Nades if you want (+Servo skulls)

 

Libby brings a bevy of force enhancing Psychic powers, and is fairly good in CC to boot (+Servo skulls)

 

Inq's can bring 'Nades and conversion beamer or an extra Terminator w/ Psycannon and Daemonhammer and the coveted Divination (Prescience), plus they unlock a Henchmen warband. (+Servo skulls)

 

 

Bro-Captain generally gets left behind, because the GM does it better for a little more. Grand Strategy is just worth it.

 

Bro-Champion generally gets left behind because while some of his rules are really cool, some are less so and 1 wound sometimes just doesn't cut it.

[thade]

Bro-Champion generally gets left behind because while some of his rules are really cool, some are less so and 1 wound sometimes just doesn't cut it.

It's really, really, really hard to land that single wound on him. :lol: That's what I've been saying, haha. And, if you do, he might take you with him, no matter how beefy you are.

[Inquisitor Fox]

Note: The following is a hypothetical yet realistic situation that doesn't stretch probability.

 

p1: "Alright, so that's the end of my turn."

p2: "Okay... movement..." *sounds of pushing models is heard*

p1: "Wait, he's seperating from his unit and going towardsAn'ggrath the Unbound?"

p2: "Yup, and he's going to charge him."

p1: *other player laughs* "This'll be sweet."

 

*shooting phase is completed*

 

p2: "Okay, so I'll use Rapier Strike as my stance, I charged so d3+1... 3 attacks." *rolls dice* "reroll to hits.. and to wounds.. alright, 1 wound due to toughness."

p1: *sneering noise as dice clatter* "I make my save, Collars of Khorne for the win! Alright, survive this..." *series of dice clatters* "Yeah, he's got what, 1 wound? He's so toast..."

p2: "I know, I counted on it. Heroic Sacrifice, ld10.." *dice roll* "Yup, he makes it, here's his to hit... rerolled... good. They're both dead."

p1: "What?! Lemme see that!"

p2: "Not bad for a 100 point model, eh? Alright, for the rest of my charging..."

[Captain Juan Juarez]

That latter part is missing a lot of the swearing that would really acompany that revelation :lol:

[thade]

Awesome.

[breng77]

p1: "Alright, so that's the end of my turn."

p2: "Okay... movement..." *sounds of pushing models is heard*

p1: "Wait, he's seperating from his unit and going towardsAn'ggrath the Unbound?"

p2: "Yup, and he's going to charge him."

p1: *other player laughs* "This'll be sweet."

 

 

just as likely a result in the my modified ending

 

p2: Sonava #$%%, snakeyes on the charge....

or 6+ deny the witch roll.

 

Or one that actually happened to me.

 

So my BHC (crowe in this case) charges Fateweaver. Rolls to hit and wound, no wounds...fateweaver fails to kill him as he makes his save against the 1 wound inflicted...Boon of Mutation...crap now my BHC is a spawn....

[Inquisitor Fox]

Actually I don't think you get a Deny the Witch roll against Heroic Sacrifice.. it's a power that affects the Brotherhood Champion, he's making a regular melee attack roll against you :D

 

But yes, sometimes freakish things happen. I think the Brotherhood Champion ends up being a winner more often than a loser though :tu:

[worloch]

Bro-Champion generally gets left behind because while some of his rules are really cool, some are less so and 1 wound sometimes just doesn't cut it.

It's really, really, really hard to land that single wound on him. :( That's what I've been saying, haha. And, if you do, he might take you with him, no matter how beefy you are.

In CC, in a challenge, maybe yes.

 

In CC, with no challenge, weight of attacks will take him down on his own and you have to choose between offensive and defensive stances, where the defensive stance may keep his 1 wound around, but he can't inflict any damage of his own.

 

 

Against shooting, he has the same basic profile as the GM (2+/4++), but it only takes 1 wound to remove him.

 

 

I'm not saying he's not cool, and I'm not saying he can't be worth his points - I'm just saying that our HQ slots at less than 2k are very competitive, so he can't be an auto-include.

[thade]

I think a re-rollable 2+ save will really surprise you; weight of attacks will really not put a hit on him. You've no doubt experienced what happens when one tactical squad (or even an assault squad) charges another squad of marines. 20 swings, maybe ten hits, 5 wounds, maybe one gets through. There's a reason we were all burying power fists in units in 5th Ed...to guarantee a wound gets three against that 3+. If you don't break them on the charge, you're in a mutual tarpit, maybe each killing one marine a turn, but I've seen many case where both units lose 0 to normal attacks and it comes down to the power fist.

 

2+ re-rollable is a far cry from 3+. I've seen techmarines with a lone 2+ hold mobs of boys on their own (after Telion picked off the Power Klaw) and that gets exciting...because "1 in 6" you think. Rerollable and all of a sudden it's 3 out of 100. I'll take those odds against a squad of ten marines. He can solo charge, issue a challenge and then either destroy the power fist sergeant or watch him cower in back while he holds the rest of the unit spellbound, awaiting their assassins (who are busy decapitating some other poor marines).

 

I also really enjoy Inq. Nic's example. :(

 

Sure, there are small chances that Precision Plasma Shots will cap him or some such, but that's true of all infantry now. Get him to melee and I bet it'll be fun. :)

[Creamywynch]

Guys I think you have convinced me to give him a try. I overlooked the fact that he is a challenge monster. The 1 wound is still a bummer but yes i can see that it is still hard to kill him and instant death to enemy characters when he dies.......yes please! now I only have to find a suitable way to model him

[breng77]

But yes, sometimes freakish things happen. I think the Brotherhood Champion ends up being a winner more often than a loser though

 

perhaps but your example assumes your opponent does not know what the BHC does, otherwise why would I put my expensive CC BAMF anywhere near him, throw in that he can now die in that charge if your opponent overwatches him. IT is hardly a given that Heroic sacrifice goes off, or there is always playing against IG where there is no good target.

[Chairman_woo]

But yes, sometimes freakish things happen. I think the Brotherhood Champion ends up being a winner more often than a loser though

 

perhaps but your example assumes your opponent does not know what the BHC does, otherwise why would I put my expensive CC BAMF anywhere near him, throw in that he can now die in that charge if your opponent overwatches him. IT is hardly a given that Heroic sacrifice goes off, or there is always playing against IG where there is no good target.

 

 

Not accepting his challenge with your BAMF is great for the BC player tho! Either you throw him something rubbish which promptly dies leaving the bro champ alive for more shenanegans in subsequent turns.

 

Or you decline the challenge all together meaning I can force your BAMF not to be able to attack that round!

 

All the while eliminating the biggest problem in return i.e. allows you to accept all challenges and not worry about the enemy choosing a guy not to attack that round. Maybe your playstyle dosen't make this matter so much (you said yourself you relly on shooting), plenty of us however do use CC on a regualr basis, or face opponents who can give you little choice in the matter. Being forced to decline a challenge can hurt really really badly vs some enemies, and nothing is quite as good as a bro champ at eating them!

 

Vs rubbish CC squads like guard blobs he still acts as a relatively cheap force multiplyer, either using the squads reroll's to decimate the enemy squad in quicktime, or splitting off to engage a target by himself allowing you to do a simmilar kind of multi-charge to the one we would have made under 5th without all the new penalties.

 

 

No one is saying he's must have, simply that he's deceptively awesome and has a good place in many armies! If your all shooting focused thats fine, take the divination inquisitor or whatever I'm sure he's infinately bettter in a shooting match. That does not mean any other choice is useless to us and moreover that shooting should always be the main/only focus of a GK list. Were good at both, thats GK's whole thing! :P

 

 

 

Edit: Overwatch is rather easilly compensated for by not standing him at the front when you charge! He only need be within 2" of an engaged model to accept/make challenges which is not difficult to pull off. He's always going to be lurking towards the back of the squad ouside of CC anyway due to wound allocation so all you need to worry about is "prescision shots" (& maybe some crafty flanking) which affect the inquisitor even worse (he's T3 so even plasma ID's him!)!

[breng77]

But yes, sometimes freakish things happen. I think the Brotherhood Champion ends up being a winner more often than a loser though

 

perhaps but your example assumes your opponent does not know what the BHC does, otherwise why would I put my expensive CC BAMF anywhere near him, throw in that he can now die in that charge if your opponent overwatches him. IT is hardly a given that Heroic sacrifice goes off, or there is always playing against IG where there is no good target.

 

 

Not accepting his challenge with your BAMF is great for the BC player tho! Either you throw him something rubbish which promptly dies leaving the bro champ alive for more shenanegans in subsequent turns.

 

Or you decline the challenge all together meaning I can force your BAMF not to be able to attack that round!

 

All the while eliminating the biggest problem in return i.e. allows you to accept all challenges and not worry about the enemy choosing a guy not to attack that round. Maybe your playstyle dosen't make this matter so much (you said yourself you relly on shooting), plenty of us however do use CC on a regualr basis, or face opponents who can give you little choice in the matter. Being forced to decline a challenge can hurt really really badly vs some enemies, and nothing is quite as good as a bro champ at eating them!

 

Vs rubbish CC squads like guard blobs he still acts as a relatively cheap force multiplyer, either using the squads reroll's to decimate the enemy squad in quicktime, or splitting off to engage a target by himself allowing you to do a simmilar kind of multi-charge to the one we would have made under 5th without all the new penalties.

 

 

No one is saying he's must have, simply that he's deceptively awesome and has a good place in many armies! If your all shooting focused thats fine, take the divination inquisitor or whatever I'm sure he's infinately bettter in a shooting match. That does not mean any other choice is useless to us and moreover that shooting should always be the main/only focus of a GK list. Were good at both, thats GK's whole thing! :P

 

 

 

Edit: Overwatch is rather easilly compensated for by not standing him at the front when you charge! He only need be within 2" of an engaged model to accept/make challenges which is not difficult to pull off. He's always going to be lurking towards the back of the squad ouside of CC anyway due to wound allocation so all you need to worry about is "prescision shots" (& maybe some crafty flanking) which affect the inquisitor even worse (he's T3 so even plasma ID's him!)!

 

Again lots of assumptions. GKs are always good at shooting so having a character that buffs CC and Shooting is better (in general) than one that buffs just CC. In addition what I meant about keeping my CC beast away was not even having him nearby on the table, send him off to kill other units etc, and leave somthing else to deal with the BHC (or in the case of my Daemons try to spawn him).

As for compensating for overwatch I agree until (like suggested) you send him out all alone to charge a squad. Precision shots are no big deal for either due to Look out sir being a 2+. While hidden in a unit it is fairly likely that both will live (but how does Instant death against a cheaper character hurt me worse when both still likely die from that shot? if LOS fails.) My point was that the inquisitor is better in both shooting and assault (buffing his squad), and cheaper. The only place the BHC is better is in a challange, and then only really against expensive characters that should be avoiding him. Much as you are saying he is not a must take, I'm not saying he is terrible. Simply that I feel that if you are optimizing your list (not everyone does) there are better choices. It is important to consider both the good and the bad, otherwise all we have is a BHC love fest.

 

My opinion is as such:

 

FOr GK generic HQs:

Libby, GM, OX and OM inquisitors are better choices in most cases (more flexible, buff your army better, better in general in combat, etc.)

Then the BHC is next in line and can be a decent secondary HQ (he makes a horrible warlord, as he wants to die and take out expensive characters, which then gives up a VP (2 if you are playing Purge the alien or what ever killpoints is called now).

Then the OH Inquisitor and Brother captain.

 

If we include special characters he ranks below

Draigo and Cotaez

Maybe on par with Mordrak, Crowe, and Kazamarov

and better than Valaria, and Stern.

 

So in the codex on the whole he is a middle tier HQ choice Ranking as the 7-10th best choice out of 14.

[thade]

GK are very good at shooting...they are also very good at melee. They do cost like 20-points a pop for a rank'n'file mook. :angry: If you go all-the-way shooty with one squad getting re-rolls to shoot via divination and one extra psycannon then - hey - you've got a nasty shooty unit. If you go all-the-way melee and take a Champ, you get one squad that rerolls its attacks on the charge without making a psychic test to do so. The re-rolls in either case are niceties but not game-breaking. If that's all we're weighing, they seem interchangeable to me. One extra psycannon or one beefy melee guy that's cheaper than all other beefy melee guys and can take something that costs 3x his own points-cost with him should he die.

 

Also, that stray shot of plasma that Precision Shot hits my Brotherhood Champion and gets past my 4++...could more easily Precision Shot Instant Death my T3 Inquisitor getting past his 5++ (assuming you gave him Terminator Armor).

 

I'm settled, haha. I'm excited to build the guy. Just have to figure out how to base him.

[breng77]

except Divination (presience) gives re-rolls to hit, not re-rolls to hit for shooting. So it is re-rolls to hit in CC and Shooting.

 

As for Precision shot, it needs to get past a 2+ LOS then your 4++ or 5++, there are not all that many Characters shooting plasma in reality.

 

So you are weighing either an extra psycannon(or grenades), stubborn, re-rolls on a psychic test in shooting and assault(even when you don't charge), and 4-5 force weapon attacks on the charge (4 if you take the OM with terminator armor but then they are S6, 5 if you take the OM and then they are S3 often swinging at T3 with rad grenades.). Vs Better challanges, and re-rolls on the charge, and slightly better defense against S7+ Ap2 or better wounds.

 

What I am saying is if they are good at assault and shooting why not run the character that helps in both cases, instead of the one who helps in just 1. Again, BHC is playable, but not at all optimal.

[worloch]

That's pretty much what I'm saying - not that the BHC isn't good, but that in our competitive HQ slots, it can be hard to fit him in.

 

 

And to get that 2+/3++ w/ re-roll, I have to be in CC and not be using him to kill anyone. Sure, he has a great chance of making that save, but if he doesn't, he's toast. If it is just some regular RaF dude who killed him, his special rule fails to really be worth it.

 

 

For my points, I simply prefer to have one or two of the other HQ's who I can guarantee to be useful a little more consistently.

[Gentlemanloser]

A question about the Brotherhood Champion, Stances and Challenges.

 

Can the Bro Champ accept a challenge, then enter Sword Storm Stance, and damage minis in the unit, outside of the challenge?

 

the Brotherhood Champion makes a single attack on every enemy model in base contact with him

 

And we all know by now Codex > BRB. ;)

 

Uh oh, used a wink simily there...

[breng77]

No because in a challengee he is treated as only being in base contact with the model accepting the challenge.

[Gentlemanloser]

Not got the BRB to hand, is that the Chalenge restriction? You're only counted as being in base to base with the mini your challenging?

 

It's not something less specific like you can't 'attack' other minis?

[breng77]

Yup brb states you count as only being base to base with the other model in the challenge.

[Gentlemanloser]

Ah, well not only does that suck, it also nerfs Heroic Sacrifice somewhat as well.

 

I'd really say that Inquisitor with Divination is better than the BC in just about every scenario now. The BC could be good for giving ATSKNF to a henchman Squad, as the only other GK that can is the Techmarine.

 

But I'd still most likely use the Techy for that.