Gandalf the Gray Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 Alright, so I have been holding on to an idea for awhile. I want to do a weird Space Wolves/Flesh Tearers hybrid army. Basically it would be an army that looked a mix of both armies (marines of both chapters and marines that show qualities of the other chapter), however it would be using one codex (Space Wolves) and all the bases would most likely have a single color (such as a purple rim) to avoid confusion. I want to do this for the following: I would use the Space Wolves codex regardless for the Flesh Tearers, as for me, it better represents their fighting style than the Blood Angels codex does. Also I can do things such as use Lone Wolves instead of Death Company because the rules seem more like a crazed marine, who only wants to die in battle. The idea of a combined fighting force between the chapters is very appealing to me. Many more chances for awesome conversions. Many units would look very cool as a combined fighting force. Such as, if I ever decided to run them, a unit of TW Calvary with Flesh Tearers riding a breed of raptors from their home planet instead of Thunder Wolves. I have an idea for fluff that I like for all of it. (See below) They are my two favorite chapters. Quick Summary of the Fluff The fluff that I've decided upon previously is that the chapter master of the Flesh Tearers, Gabriel Seth, showed levelheadedness unheard of in the earlier chapter masters and apologized profusely for the events the transpired previously before the two chapters. After much pleading, Logan Grimnar accepted Seth's apologies on the terms that he prove himself and his marines to be honorable warriors... (I'll skip to the end here, just imagine the description of a large battle here where the Flesh Tearers saved the day) Eventually, Grimnar lent the Flesh Tearers some troops and the Flesh Tearers started to integrate with the Space Wolves troops (the process quickened due to the Flesh Tearers being a dying chapter) and became a sort of combination of the two chapters over years upon years of battle and kinship. Due to this, the Flesh Tearers earned a powerful ally in the wolves. End Note: I know that I"ll probably get a response saying something akin to "They're your plastic army men to do with as you wish.", I understand this - but I'm more interested in what you all, as Space Wolves players, think. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258486-good-idea-or-heresy/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrik Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 have you read the space wolf famous battle in the codex? read honours end. It's stated quite clear that after that incident we're not exactly friends anymore Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258486-good-idea-or-heresy/#findComment-3143192 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gandalf the Gray Posted August 7, 2012 Author Share Posted August 7, 2012 I have read it, I thought that Seth's new direction and control for the Flesh Tearer's would be able to strike up some sort of agreement. And it could progress from there. But I guess nevermind then, any other opinions? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258486-good-idea-or-heresy/#findComment-3143203 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulricspath Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 I don 't know the flesh tearers history but as savage as they are, would Seth really give an apologize to Logan? On the other hand I highly doubt that Grimnar really would accept it, unless Seth would beat him in combat or something like that. The wolves may be more humane than other chapters but they seems to be just like the dwarves, holding a grudge to their bitter deaths, I mean look at the Dark angels and Space Wolves. Not even after Leman Russ and Lionel become battle brothers the chapters can really accept each other. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258486-good-idea-or-heresy/#findComment-3143211 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow warrior Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 I think the Flesh Tearers Chapter is unforgiven for the act they have done. They where slaying imperial citizen (defenders of Armageddon) who they thought where exposed to chaos and when the Space Wolves intervene the battle between Chapters erupted. I wouldn't forgive those acts of reckless treason and will never aid the Flesh Tearers by sending troops to the chapter. Your story is heresy in my ears brother. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258486-good-idea-or-heresy/#findComment-3143510 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gandalf the Gray Posted August 7, 2012 Author Share Posted August 7, 2012 @Ulricspath: Sorry, for the late response ( I never got an email saying I had another response). But anyway, I do believe that Gabriel Seth would apologize - he is said to be far more levelheaded than the previous chapter masters and only wants the best for the Flesh Tearers. The Space Wolves are a strong enemy to have, especially when your chapter numbers only around 400 marines and . The situation I discussed would have the Flesh Tearers proving themselves to the Space Wolves (I skipped the whole thing, as to not force everyone to read another couple paragraphs), and I thought that would allow for Grimnar to accept the apology, albiet grudgingly. @Shadow Warrior: That is a shame, two strict vetos to my idea. It seems the Flesh Tearers will die without any support in Gabriel Seth's war for redemption and glory. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258486-good-idea-or-heresy/#findComment-3143533 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulricspath Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 It may be so that Gabriel Seth would understand his fault but I still think Logan Grimnar would never accept it. But the Space Wolves are still Astarters and are still loyal to the imperium and I think that if the Flesh Tearers would be in such a state that their existence almost is extinct, the Space Wolves would aid them, but never in a way that the Flesh Tearers would be incopirated into the Space Wolves or vice versa. But something you could do to overcome that obstacle is by using non-Fenris space wolves. Sven Ironhand was a wolflord who didn't agree with Logan Grimnar and toked his company and went to the eastern fringe to create an imperium (still loyal to the Emperor off course!) in 815.M41. Your Flesh Tearers could have joined him. Sven wasn't the first (or the last?) Wolf lord to do this so could maybe be another way of dealing with it. But apart from that I see it as highly unlikely that Logan Grimnar would accept Gabriel Seth and the Flesh Tearers to "join" them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258486-good-idea-or-heresy/#findComment-3143557 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gandalf the Gray Posted August 7, 2012 Author Share Posted August 7, 2012 That sounds like a fair compromise, I'll try to incorporate a figure such a Sven. And I'm afraid I seemed to give off the wrong idea. I did not mean to have the two chapters joined or merged but rather, some of the Space Wolves' troops joining the Flesh Tearers campaign (How better to gain honor and experience than a suicidal campaign meant to either cleanse the universe or die trying, leaving only legends behind?). As a result of the cooperation between the two, they both started to share qualities over many years of war and merged into a cohesive fighting force. - Both chapters still existing as separate entities, they just became close. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258486-good-idea-or-heresy/#findComment-3143574 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrik Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 just apply the rules of allies of convenience and you're set for a campaign ;) as you've stated you want them to be allies in a campaign i'd say keep them on their current dislike for eachother. why? 1) it doesn't require any stretching of fluff or the likes. we don't like the dark angels either yet fought next to them on several occansions 2) from a story-point of view this is much more interesting. instead of being best buddies you can now tell tales of how the crusade got hampered by the mistrust between the different chapters (say the wolves don't trust the flesh tearers to take care of the remaining citizens, or their reaction to a deamon invasion and how they take care of the imperial guardman who fought with them. In fact, if you wanted to go big you could even try to make specific scenarios (using amongst others the deamonic incursion objective when fighting against chaos forces) and some nifty made up rules for friendly games 3)starting a campaign force is a great idea to incorporate any imperial faction, be it sisters of battle, imperial guard, another chapter, etc. one of the things most looked over when doing this however is a cool campaign badge that really ties the different armies together. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258486-good-idea-or-heresy/#findComment-3143616 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khine Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 It may be so that Gabriel Seth would understand his fault but I still think Logan Grimnar would never accept it. But the Space Wolves are still Astarters and are still loyal to the imperium and I think that if the Flesh Tearers would be in such a state that their existence almost is extinct, the Space Wolves would aid them, but never in a way that the Flesh Tearers would be incopirated into the Space Wolves or vice versa. But something you could do to overcome that obstacle is by using non-Fenris space wolves. Sven Ironhand was a wolflord who didn't agree with Logan Grimnar and toked his company and went to the eastern fringe to create an imperium (still loyal to the Emperor off course!) in 815.M41. Your Flesh Tearers could have joined him. Sven wasn't the first (or the last?) Wolf lord to do this so could maybe be another way of dealing with it. But apart from that I see it as highly unlikely that Logan Grimnar would accept Gabriel Seth and the Flesh Tearers to "join" them. Ulfric where did you hear this story about Sven Ironhand? i would dearly love to read up on it. At the OP. If your making this fluff because you want to use the Space Wolves codex, don't. You don't need to justify your use of codex to anyone as long as your clear you are using that codex. IF you are doing it because you want Flesh Tearers and Space Wolves to work together then have you thought about possibly looking at it from a different perspective. Flesh tearers come across the remnants of great company and agree to help them make their way back to the SWs also, i thought the blood angels were calling for all successors to fill out the ranks of blood angels? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258486-good-idea-or-heresy/#findComment-3143618 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 I also don't think Gabriel, or any other SM commander would go out of their way to apologize. The FT's know what they are and have accepted their ways and fate. Similarly SW's have to live with the Wulfen curse. If one runs loose and kills a few innocents, SW's would track it down and destroy it but would not apologize. I think what would work better is a mutual dire threat forcing the SW's and FT's to work together begrudgingly. During the war they MUST fight together perhaps old hatred is forgiven and new bonds of understanding and brother ship are born. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258486-good-idea-or-heresy/#findComment-3143619 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gandalf the Gray Posted August 7, 2012 Author Share Posted August 7, 2012 @hendrik & Lord Ragnarok I'll definitely think about adopting your ideas, it does give an interesting aspect toward further fluff. However I do like the idea of the chapters becoming close allies so it'll take some thought. And at Lord Ragnarok specifically, I believe the dynamic changes when you have motives such as Gabriel Seth's, to fix past wrongs and acquire allies, one might have to swallow their pride. @Khine I would use the Space Wolves codex regardless, as it better fits the Flesh Tearers than the Blood Angel's codex. Also, the Blood Angels are indeed calling the successor chapters together, however the chapters are all remaining as separate entities. The Flesh Tearers aren't even really welcome either, they are looked down upon by the other Blood Angel chapters. (Also I rather like your idea of the Flesh Tearers finding part of the Great Company, I might have to use it.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258486-good-idea-or-heresy/#findComment-3143628 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow warrior Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 Why does the Space Wolves codex fits better than the Blood Angels codex for the Flesh Tearers Chapter? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258486-good-idea-or-heresy/#findComment-3143939 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 It doesnt Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258486-good-idea-or-heresy/#findComment-3143970 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfebane Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 Why does the Space Wolves codex fits better than the Blood Angels codex for the Flesh Tearers Chapter? I would use the Space Wolves codex regardless for the Flesh Tearers, as for me, it better represents their fighting style than the Blood Angels codex does. Also I can do things such as use Lone Wolves instead of Death Company because the rules seem more like a crazed marine, who only wants to die in battle. Per the OP. Personally, I find the BA to be more savage in regards to melee assaults than SWs. Maybe that perception is a product of 5E's nerfing of our Blood Claws, making it less likely to see as many of them taken over Grey Hunter packs, who are much better at the 12-24" battlefield and are more tempered in assaults. I just recently acquired a non-WD BA codex and started reading it tonight so I'll better understand them and the Flesh Tearers, so if my assessment is off, just ignore me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258486-good-idea-or-heresy/#findComment-3143984 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon950 Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 Would he apologize for what his warriors did, maybe. Now would he ask the SWs for help over the BAs or other sucessor chapters, doubt it. And seeing how that has already happened, I really doubt he would ask the SWs for help. But do what you want, your army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258486-good-idea-or-heresy/#findComment-3144235 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Brother 92 Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 based on current fluff I think he (Gabriel Seth) would actually have a better chance of befriending us wolves, because although we do rather despise his 'civvy-killing' activities we can still respect the Flesh Tearers marshall prowess, whereas his own little pretty Blood Angels + Successors are utter perfectionists and only beaten in that sense by the Emps Children (now we all know what happened to them what with the weird nekid lady-beasts). They look at Seth & Co as the dirty little secret, even more so than the Black Rage or Red Thirst (at least they can hide that and control whether it's seen to be more than battle-lust). It's the same for us Wolves, we are/were in some ways the Emperor's last little secret, the Legion with true loyalty to none other than our Primarch and the All-Father and we would willingly, some would say gladly (not I for that is the path of Angron's sons) raise a blade among friends as much as foes (this can be seen with the fact that we had a literal war in the void above Fenris with the Ecclesiarchy). We have many traits in common with these blood thirsty warriors, they fight for redemption in the eyes of their brothers and their sires, we fight for honour and redemption in the eyes of our elders and our primarch... We both wish for greater glories and freedoms. Both chapters are utterly loyal to the imperium although independant enough not to be lackies of another cause and still strike out at any foes, internal or external. I think if you build the saga correctly, there is no reason these two forces simply can't fight together - as is well known, the Wolves and Lions fight a duel when they meet upon the battleground, this covers purposes of tradition and martial honour among the two very much opposed brother chapters - and through that small discourse we are able to fight together, not so much as battle-brothers but with a certain respect of martial strength. Something similar could easily work for the two once warring chapters of Flesh Tearers and Space Wolves - although if you wanted a little 'inter-force' dalliance, then use both Gabriel Seth and the Wolf Lord involved (icr his name) and have some internal strike that could spill out onto the field of battle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258486-good-idea-or-heresy/#findComment-3144307 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfebane Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 lol sorry for this being off-topic, but Russ Brother, your first and last paragraphs were giant runoff sentences. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258486-good-idea-or-heresy/#findComment-3144327 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Brother 92 Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 lol sorry for this being off-topic, but Russ Brother, your first and last paragraphs were giant runoff sentences. yeah sorry bout that - just wanted to put a little fluff-style opinion in - ohwell back OT - I don't see why it won't work period, although we'll never be best buddies with them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258486-good-idea-or-heresy/#findComment-3144382 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gandalf the Gray Posted August 8, 2012 Author Share Posted August 8, 2012 Sorry for the lack of responses, I slept in today. Anyway... @Shawdow warrior & SamaNagol I prefer the SW codex rather than BA for Flesh Tearers because I feel it more aptly presents the Flesh Tearers - abiet with a few changes. The tactical squads show close combat prowess with the Counter-strike rule, the Lone Wolves can be adapted to be marines who in the midst of battle of fallen to the corruption of the Blood Angel's geneseed, Wolf Guard joined to units gives a dynamic close to the Flesh Tearers' few veterans joining other units to try to keep the marines alive, and so on. @Russ Brother 92 You've pretty much transcribed my current personal thoughts. :) Again I see the idea of internal strife, I think I'll talk my local playgroup tomorrow about setting up a house rule to better represent it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258486-good-idea-or-heresy/#findComment-3144431 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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