Sir Blayse Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 No. You can have 30 DC plus Lemartes. He's not an upgrade. He's an extra character that is bought after you select your 3-30 DC Marines. For example, you got your basic 3 DC Marines at 60 points - buy Lemartes and you have 4 models in the squad. He doesn't replace anyone, he's extra. Snorri I was going to say no to this at first, thinking that Lemartes was just an upgrade to one of the members, but actually I'm pretty sure Snorri is right on this. I know Armybuilder is not always right, but according to a legal list could contain 30 DC plus Lemartes, for a total of 31. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freman Bloodglaive Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Reading through it that's correct. He's also not a death company model. He just has all their rules. So to get the 5 dreadnoughts you'd need 25 death company, and Lemartes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunken Angel Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 There is no grey area with regard to Lemartes status, he is a Death Company model and expressly described as able to be included as Death Company. You are permitted 3 to 27 Death Company in one unit of which one of them can be Lemartes. No. You can have 30 DC plus Lemartes. He's not an upgrade. He's an extra character that is bought after you select your 3-30 DC Marines. For example, you got your basic 3 DC Marines at 60 points - buy Lemartes and you have 4 models in the squad. He doesn't replace anyone, he's extra. Snorri Reading through it that's correct. He's also not a death company model. He just has all their rules. So to get the 5 dreadnoughts you'd need 25 death company, and Lemartes. Find one character description for Lemartes in the BA codex and quote it here please. Otherwise accept that Lemartes is not a character. Lemartes is included as Death Company within the unit and you get one dread for every 5 Death Company models one of them can be Lemartes as he is included as Death Company how can that be otherwise ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 There is no grey area with regard to Lemartes status, he is a Death Company model and expressly described as able to be included as Death Company. You are permitted 3 to 27 Death Company in one unit of which one of them can be Lemartes. No. You can have 30 DC plus Lemartes. He's not an upgrade. He's an extra character that is bought after you select your 3-30 DC Marines. For example, you got your basic 3 DC Marines at 60 points - buy Lemartes and you have 4 models in the squad. He doesn't replace anyone, he's extra. Snorri Reading through it that's correct. He's also not a death company model. He just has all their rules. So to get the 5 dreadnoughts you'd need 25 death company, and Lemartes. Find one character description for Lemartes in the BA codex and quote it here please. Otherwise accept that Lemartes is not a character. Lemartes is included as Death Company within the unit and you get one dread for every 5 Death Company models one of them can be Lemartes as he is included as Death Company how can that be otherwise ? Because Death Company are of model type Death Company. Lemartes is of model type Lemartes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnorriSnorrison Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Find one character description for Lemartes in the BA codex and quote it here please. Otherwise accept that Lemartes is not a character. Lemartes is included as Death Company within the unit and you get one dread for every 5 Death Company models one of them can be Lemartes as he is included as Death Company how can that be otherwise ? Pretty easy. You don't find any description for Lemartes as as DC model. He's a character by 5th, and by 6th, he's pretty sure one. He's not and independent character, however. He's Lemartes. He can be included into the DC but that's it. From a pure RAW perspective, he's an additional character to the DC unit. Nowhere it says that Lemartes is a DC model. It sayst that Lemartes can be included into one unit of DC for x points. That, and his quite different special rules and profile, would lead to the opinion that Lemmy ain't no DC model within the DC unit. Snorri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunken Angel Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 You cant come up with a character definition so dont try to refer to him as a character. The simple sentence "you can include Lemartes in the death company" is enough to make him a Death Company model. Lemartes is not a character in the codex he is jump infantry and included in the Death Company therefore a death company model. If he is not that then what is he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 You cant come up with a character definition so dont try to refer to him as a character. The simple sentence "you can include Lemartes in the death company" is enough to make him a Death Company model. Lemartes is not a character in the codex he is jump infantry and included in the Death Company therefore a death company model. If he is not that then what is he? A death company model is a model of type Death Company. Lemartes is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Blayse Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Well, character definitions can be found in the 6th ed rule book, page 63. Also, Lemartes has his own page in the BA codex, page 43 to be exact. He is not even on the same page as the Death Company. The only requirement for him is that you must have a DC unit to take him. He is the Guardian of the Lost, and will only be present where they are. But, he is not actually a member of the DC. He is their chaplain. Not to bring up the Armybuilder again, but if you take 4 DC and Lemartes, it flags the DC dread for not enough DC members. You still have to have five and Lemartes for it to let you buy the dread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Drunken Angel, check the summary at the back of the codex for all model types. This is the same reason why a Blood Champion cannot take Honour Guard upgrades (i.e it is model type Blood Champion not Honour Guard) and Furioso Librarian Dreadnoughts cannot take Furioso Dreanought upgrades (i.e it is model type Furioso Librarian Dreadnought and not Furioso Dreanought). Lemartes is not a grey area, he is a model that having a squad of Death Company gives you access to, but he is not model type Death Company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gondow Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Both Tycho and LeMartes has the Black Rage. As do the DC, that states that they have rage and is non scoring. If we look at the fluff (both in literature and C:BA) Those who succumb to the black rage IS DC, accept Mephiston. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Fluff does not equal rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 lol there is no unit limitation on Death Company other than the 3 minimum. 'You may add up to 27 Death Company at + Xpts' doesn't imply an upper limit other than you having no more models left to add. So Lemartes doesn't afftect anything in terms of an upper limit restriction. Nor does Lemartes count as a Death Company model. It is very clear protocol that if something it Capitalised in the rules it refers to a specific entry. There is a Death Company entry. Lemartes is a separate entry that may be added to a UNIT of Death Company as a non-independent character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Drake Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Fluff does not equal rules. Exactly. Rules = rules. I can't believe this is even being questioned!? Tycho does not count towards DC limit. Tycho can not join the DC. 5 DC = DC Dread. Lemartes is part of a unit of DC however he does not count towards the 5 DC = DCD. (could be why a SR can transport 12 & not 10). Only one unit of DC can be taken unless you take Astorath. Simples. If you wanted Tycho & a unit of DC this would also be fine, since Tycho is a separate entry to the DC. If, however you turn up with 4 DC & Tycho & a DCD, well I'm not having that! - Dallas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Nor does Lemartes count as a Death Company model. It is very clear protocol that if something it Capitalised in the rules it refers to a specific entry. There is a Death Company entry. Lemartes is a separate entry that may be added to a UNIT of Death Company as a non-independent character. ^This. "Death company" relates to, unsurprisingly, a model whose profile has the words "Death Company" in front of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gondow Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 In the errata (second page) Page 23– The Red Thirst. Add “Independent Characters that have succumbed to the Red Thirst can only join the Death Company, and units that have also succumbed to the Red Thirst." None of our ICs have The Red Thirst, so why did GW put this in if not to point at Tycho and LeMartes? (that admittedly has the Black rage) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnorriSnorrison Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 In the errata (second page) Page 23– The Red Thirst. Add “Independent Characters that have succumbed to the Red Thirst can only join the Death Company, and units that have also succumbed to the Red Thirst." None of our ICs have The Red Thirst, so why did GW put this in if not to point at Tycho and LeMartes? (that admittedly has the Black rage) This is overruled by the fact that neither Lemartes or DC Tycho are independent characters. Snorri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunken Angel Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 You cant come up with a character definition so dont try to refer to him as a character. The simple sentence "you can include Lemartes in the Death Company" is enough to make him a Death Company model. Lemartes is not a character in the codex he is jump infantry and included in the Death Company therefore a death company model. If he is not that then what is he? in·clude (n-kld) tr.v. in·clud·ed, in·clud·ing, in·cludes 1. To take in as a part, element, or member. 2. To contain as a secondary or subordinate element. 3. To consider with or place into a group, class, or total: verb [with object] 1 comprise or contain as part of a whole: Unless you want to rewrite the english language and its definition of include Lemartes is a Death Company model. Whatever you might consider Lemartes to be before inclusion is immaterial the codex entry is included .... not added nor joined. He is included and by common definition once included, a member of the Death Company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Incorrect, it refers to including Lemartes in a squad of Death Company. This does not make him model type Death Company. A Death Company Dreadnought is unlocked by models of unit type Death Company in multiples of five, not by how large the squad is. If this was the case, I could take a squad of four Death Company, add a Captain and that would make my Death Company squad five models and thus unlock a Death Company Dreadnought for me. Obviously this is incorrect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Drake Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Incorrect, it refers to including Lemartes in a squad of Death Company. This does not make him model type Death Company. A Death Company Dreadnought is unlocked by models of unit type Death Company in multiples of five, not by how large the squad is. If this was the case, I could take a squad of four Death Company, add a Captain and that would make my Death Company squad five models and thus unlock a Death Company Dreadnought for me. Obviously this is incorrect. This. Heh. I love it when people start quoting dictionaries & stuff, this isn't even a grey area! ''The Death Company can include Lemartes'' What about that statement above (page 88) makes you think that Lemartes is or counts as a Death Company? They are separate units in the codex, one is called 'Death Company' the other is called 'Lemartes, Guardian of the Lost'. He is not 'Death Company Lemartes', so he is not part of the Death Company, he joins them. You need to take 5 DC to get a DCD. Lemartes does NOT count towards that number, the fact that he can be included in the squad etc etc is not relevant. If you want a DCD you need 5 DC, it is as simple as that. Also, Gondow, to answer your question - Firstly, Black Rage & Red Thirst are two different things. On the Red Thirst thing in the FAQ, I personally think that GW are toying with the idea of giving BA ICs The Red Thirst. Hmm, if they did this then how would this effect SHPs? Meh. - Dallas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunken Angel Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Incorrect, it refers to including Lemartes in a squad of Death Company. This does not make him model type Death Company. A Death Company Dreadnought is unlocked by models of unit type Death Company in multiples of five, not by how large the squad is. If this was the case, I could take a squad of four Death Company, add a Captain and that would make my Death Company squad five models and thus unlock a Death Company Dreadnought for me. Obviously this is incorrect. Lemartes once included is Death Company by any definition of the word include. Adding a captain is not the same as including. A captain is an IC and using him as an analogy in this argument irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Drake Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Incorrect, it refers to including Lemartes in a squad of Death Company. This does not make him model type Death Company. A Death Company Dreadnought is unlocked by models of unit type Death Company in multiples of five, not by how large the squad is. If this was the case, I could take a squad of four Death Company, add a Captain and that would make my Death Company squad five models and thus unlock a Death Company Dreadnought for me. Obviously this is incorrect. Lemartes once included is Death Company by any definition of the word include. Adding a captain is not the same as including. A captain is an IC and using him as an analogy in this argument irrelevant. What? If I put an orange in a box that includes 4 apples does that mean I have 5 apples just because of the word 'includes'? I think you're taking a very tight angle on this mate. ''You can include one Death Company Dreadnought for every five Death Company models in your army'' (page 89). Is Lemartes a 'Death Company model'? No. He's a Chaplain that has fallen to the Black Rage. He is listed separately to the Death Company. Quite different from say, a Sanguinary Novitiate or even Corbulo. In fact, read the bit for Corbulo - ''You can include Corbulo as one of your Sanguinary Priests''. Does it say this for Lemartes? No. Does adding or including Lemartes to a unit of Death Company make him a Death Company model? No. End of. http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=242317 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunken Angel Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Incorrect, it refers to including Lemartes in a squad of Death Company. This does not make him model type Death Company. A Death Company Dreadnought is unlocked by models of unit type Death Company in multiples of five, not by how large the squad is. If this was the case, I could take a squad of four Death Company, add a Captain and that would make my Death Company squad five models and thus unlock a Death Company Dreadnought for me. Obviously this is incorrect. This. Heh. I love it when people start quoting dictionaries & stuff, this isn't even a grey area! ''The Death Company can include Lemartes'' What about that statement above (page 88) makes you think that Lemartes is or counts as a Death Company? They are separate units in the codex, one is called 'Death Company' the other is called 'Lemartes, Guardian of the Lost'. He is not 'Death Company Lemartes', so he is not part of the Death Company, he joins them. You need to take 5 DC to get a DCD. Lemartes does NOT count towards that number, the fact that he can be included in the squad etc etc is not relevant. If you want a DCD you need 5 DC, it is as simple as that. Also, Gondow, to answer your question - Firstly, Black Rage & Red Thirst are two different things. On the Red Thirst thing in the FAQ, I personally think that GW are toying with the idea of giving BA ICs The Red Thirst. Hmm, if they did this then how would this effect SHPs? Meh. - Dallas Included is directly relevant to Lemartes entry. If you can come up with a defintion for "include" that eliminates Lemartes from the Death company I will concede this. Include by definition makes Lemartes Death Company. What does the word include mean to you ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunken Angel Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 What? If I put an orange in a box that includes 4 apples does that mean I have 5 apples just because of the word 'includes'? I think you're taking a very tight angle on this mate. 'You can include one Death Company Dreadnought for every five Death Company models in your army' (page 89). Is Lemartes a 'Death Company model'? No. Does adding or including Lemartes to a unit of Death Company make him a Death Company model? No. End of. What happens if the word "include" one orange is permitted in your contract to supply five items of fruit to the table and your contract says once you have five items of fruit you can have one coconut. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Incorrect, it refers to including Lemartes in a squad of Death Company. This does not make him model type Death Company. A Death Company Dreadnought is unlocked by models of unit type Death Company in multiples of five, not by how large the squad is. If this was the case, I could take a squad of four Death Company, add a Captain and that would make my Death Company squad five models and thus unlock a Death Company Dreadnought for me. Obviously this is incorrect. Lemartes once included is Death Company by any definition of the word include. Adding a captain is not the same as including. A captain is an IC and using him as an analogy in this argument irrelevant. What if I change my wording to the following: If this was the case, I could take a squad of four Death Company, include a Captain and that would make my Death Company squad five models and thus unlock a Death Company Dreadnought for me. Better yet, I will use your last reply as an example: Included is directly relevant to Lemartes entry. If you can come up with a defintion for "include" that eliminates Lemartes from the Death company I will concede this. Include by definition makes Lemartes Death Company. What does the word include mean to you ? If I include a Captain in a Tactical Squad then include by definition makes my Captain a Tactical Marine. Correct? What the rules state is that you can purchase Lemartes to go with your Death Company. Not that he is Death Company. What his fluff represents is irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunken Angel Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 A captain is an Independent Character thats the basis for his entry, ever tried to get a 2+ "look out sir" on Lemartes, you wont get it nor should you either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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