What counts as death company?

[Dallas Drake]

Incorrect, it refers to including Lemartes in a squad of Death Company. This does not make him model type Death Company. A Death Company Dreadnought is unlocked by models of unit type Death Company in multiples of five, not by how large the squad is.

 

If this was the case, I could take a squad of four Death Company, add a Captain and that would make my Death Company squad five models and thus unlock a Death Company Dreadnought for me.

 

Obviously this is incorrect.

 

This.

 

Heh. I love it when people start quoting dictionaries & stuff, this isn't even a grey area!

 

''The Death Company can include Lemartes''

 

What about that statement above (page 88) makes you think that Lemartes is or counts as a Death Company? They are separate units in the codex, one is called 'Death Company' the other is called 'Lemartes, Guardian of the Lost'. He is not 'Death Company Lemartes', so he is not part of the Death Company, he joins them.

 

You need to take 5 DC to get a DCD.

 

Lemartes does NOT count towards that number, the fact that he can be included in the squad etc etc is not relevant. If you want a DCD you need 5 DC, it is as simple as that.

 

Also, Gondow, to answer your question - Firstly, Black Rage & Red Thirst are two different things. On the Red Thirst thing in the FAQ, I personally think that GW are toying with the idea of giving BA ICs The Red Thirst. Hmm, if they did this then how would this effect SHPs? Meh.

 

- Dallas

 

Included is directly relevant to Lemartes entry. If you can come up with a defintion for "include" that eliminates Lemartes from the Death company I will concede this. Include by definition makes Lemartes Death Company. What does the word include mean to you ?

 

Ok.

 

''2. to add as part of something else; put in as part of a set, group, or category.''

 

The word 'include' does not mean transform. Lemartes can quite happily be 'included' in the unit without having to become one of the unit or the same as the unit, he is Lemartes, he is not Death Company. Are you going to tell me that a Chaplain with an entirely different set of war gear & a completely different stat line is the same as a DC? Come on! The fact that it also says clearly for Corbulo that he counts as 'one of your SHPs' makes me think that if they wanted Lemartes to count as a DC then they would've just said that. I know GW are crap at consistency but the codex says what the codex says.

 

I won't bother posting a long, unnecessary blurb about the word include, but in my dictionary the verb 'include' has the following;

 

include (ɪnˈkluːd)

 

— vb

1. to have as contents or part of the contents; be made up of or contain

2. to add as part of something else; put in as part of a set, group, or category

 

So, 'to be made up of or contain' and 'to add as part of something else; put in as part of a set, group or category'. This clearly relates to sets, groups and categories, it clear as day says 'to add as part of something else'. Here, you're interpreting the word 'include' to mean Death Company. I'm seeing the word include to mean model (more specifically - Jump Infantry). Lemartes being 'included' does not meant that he suddenly becomes DC, he is a separate model that can be included (as something else, as part of a set, group, or catagory).

 

Pretty much every forum discussion I've read on this agrees that Lemartes does not count towards the DC limit for unlocking a DCD. If you want to play it differently then fine that's your right, go ahead. Unless you have a tight gaming group who accept your interpretation then I would expect most, if not all, of the people you face to question this.

 

- Dallas

 

BTW, you're having a semantic/lexicological argument with an English teacher :P

[Xenith]

What? If I put an orange in a box that includes 4 apples does that mean I have 5 apples just because of the word 'includes'? I think you're taking a very tight angle on this mate.

 

'You can include one Death Company Dreadnought for every five Death Company models in your army' (page 89).

 

Is Lemartes a 'Death Company model'? No.

Does adding or including Lemartes to a unit of Death Company make him a Death Company model? No.

 

End of.

 

What happens if the word "include" one orange is permitted in your contract to supply five items of fruit to the table and your contract says once you have five items of fruit you can have one coconut. :P

 

In your rewriting of the rules (emphasised above), you get the coconut. In the actual rules:

 

You must have a fruit box of five oranges to be able to have a coconut.

 

You put 4 oranges and an apple in the box. You now have a fruit box with 5 pieces of fruit, but only four oranges.

 

You do not get the coconut.

[Dallas Drake]

What? If I put an orange in a box that includes 4 apples does that mean I have 5 apples just because of the word 'includes'? I think you're taking a very tight angle on this mate.

 

'You can include one Death Company Dreadnought for every five Death Company models in your army' (page 89).

 

Is Lemartes a 'Death Company model'? No.

Does adding or including Lemartes to a unit of Death Company make him a Death Company model? No.

 

End of.

 

What happens if the word "include" one orange is permitted in your contract to supply five items of fruit to the table and your contract says once you have five items of fruit you can have one coconut. :P

 

In your rewriting of the rules (emphasised above), you get the coconut. In the actual rules:

 

You must have a fruit box of five oranges to be able to have a coconut.

 

You put 4 oranges and an apple in the box. You now have a fruit box with 5 pieces of fruit, but only four oranges.

 

You do not get the coconut.

 

Exactly. Look this is getting silly now. I've made several good arguments that are pretty much ignored by people who just want to interpret things their way. I'm staying out of this now because I personally feel I've made it quite obvious you can't do 4 DC + Lemartes = DCD.

 

Bottom line is this, do what you want. I've never seen anyone try 4 DC + Lemartes = DCD. So, if your group let you then that's their problem. Honestly, I doubt I will ever see this tried, it's not even an issue in my group. If someone came along & tried it they'd soon get bored of 'nah thanks mate I've already got a game sorted' & watching other people play.

 

- Dallas

[JamesI]

In the errata (second page)

 

Page 23– The Red Thirst.

Add “Independent Characters that have succumbed to the Red

Thirst can only join the Death Company, and units that have

also succumbed to the Red Thirst."

 

None of our ICs have The Red Thirst, so why did GW put this in if not to point at Tycho and LeMartes? (that admittedly has the Black rage)

No one knows why it is there. The hope it is for a future update making DC Tycho an IC who can only join DC/units that fell to the thirst.

 

Incorrect, it refers to including Lemartes in a squad of Death Company. This does not make him model type Death Company. A Death Company Dreadnought is unlocked by models of unit type Death Company in multiples of five, not by how large the squad is.

 

If this was the case, I could take a squad of four Death Company, add a Captain and that would make my Death Company squad five models and thus unlock a Death Company Dreadnought for me.

 

Obviously this is incorrect.

 

Lemartes once included is Death Company by any definition of the word include. Adding a captain is not the same as including. A captain is an IC and using him as an analogy in this argument irrelevant.

Lemartes is included in the Death Company unit.

 

He is not a model of type Death company.

[Marik]

Why in the Emperor’s name is this at three pages. The Codex is very clear on the matter.

 

Death Company

Unit Composition 3 Death Company

Add up to 27 Death Company

 

Lemartes

Unit Composition 1 (Unique)

The Death Company can include Lemartes

 

Tycho

Unit Composition 1(Unique)

You must choose which version of Tycho you wish to use when selecting your army.

 

 

RAW nothing makes Lemartes or Tycho count towards the limitations of the death company unit cap, size cap, or DC Dread models requirments.

 

Fluff is irrelevant as far as rules are concerned. If you want to argue fluff it is clear that Lemartes is not fully succumbed to the blak rage because his mind is not yet riven with insanity which is why Astor hasn’t killed him yet. If he had become a full member and thus succmed fully to the black rage then Astrorath would have taken his head. As for Tycho he is dead