The 13th Black Crusade

[Gree]

I was re-reading the Eye of Terror newsletter and I kinda struck me, the results don't match up with the actual campaign.

 

I mean take this:

 

"Darkness has fallen across a hundred worlds, and for the defenders of the Cadian Gate, the pure light of day now seems but a distant memory. Though the forces of the Despoiler have been denied the ultimate prize of the fall of Cadia, Abaddon’s hordes have gained a foothold upon the worlds of Man, and none can see them being repelled for many years to come. Abaddon and his council of three have outmanoeuvred and out fought the forces of the Imperium at almost every turn. Corpses litter the battlefields in their millions, yet millions more still stand beleaguered, against a foe that knows no mercy and whose only goal is the utter destruction of all who stand before them.'

 

The Thirteenth Black Crusade has broken the Imperium’s hold upon the Cadian Gate- perhaps forever. The raging tempest of the Eye of Terror has surged forth, engulfing those worlds lost to Chaos. The Imperium no longer bars the gate to the Eye, only a small channel remains through which Imperial Navy vessels may pass to bring aid to the desperate forces upon Cadia.

 

At the close of the Thirteenth Black Crusade, Cadia still stands. But she stands alone, a failing beacon flickering against the encroaching night. Total war is come to Segmentum Obscurus, and all hopes of repelling the invaders are dashed. The Imperium must now consolidate its grip upon those worlds it still holds, and prepare to fight a war that will not end within the lifetime of any of its combatants. While Cadia still stands, humanity has reason to hope, but Abaddon the Despoiler has finally achieved what he has failed to do on twelve previous occasions, over ten thousand years- he has breached the Cadian Gate, and none can now hold back the inexorable tide of Chaos unleashed upon the Imperium of Man. "-

 

Except, as my research had later revealed, that's not quite what actually happened in the game results. The Imperium was winning pretty much completely on the space end of the spectrum and spacelanes around Cadia? Imperial. To such a degree that even the Tyranids had stopped trying to eat anything in the area by the end of the campaign. It's a lonely beacon of hope for Chaos in a universe which in actual reality went very much in the opposite direction.

 

As I understand it, as the time passed on, and as the results reflected it, GW has to make more and mroe excuses why Abbadon's forces even existed on the ground with Imperial space control and the Imperium started a serious counterattack. As I understood it, if the campaigh had been allowed to continue the Imperium would have recaptured pretty much everything.

 

So hence my confusion of how they wrote it.

[Sception]

Not how victory was determined. Victory was determined on a planet by planet basis. Players could post their victories wherever they wanted. Victories posted to space lanes were reflected as small boosts to all the planets in a given system. Victories posted to an individual planet could outpace that even if they were fewer overall, and if a planet was lost, it also negatively impacted the rest of the planets in the system, and that bonus jump was generally bigger than a day's worth of general system wins.

 

There are, and were even then, just way, way more loyalist players than players on team chaos, especially when you realize that ork, tyranid, and especially dark eldar (why were they even on team chaos in the first place?) were not excited to be part of the crusade, and generally went off to do their own things, or even in dark eldar's case, actively and deliberately sabotaged 'their own' side. Which was awesome, by the way.

 

So there were always going to be way, way more wins for team imperium. But the imperial players were disorganized - they posted their victories every which where, and mostly to the space lanes, since they never caught on to where chaos was going to strike next. On the other hand, chaos organized on independent forums early. Key posters took lead positions in the community, studied the rules of the campaign to see how they could be exploited, and issued orders that the chaos community at large generally followed, posting all of their victories on a particular day to a particular planet, crushing it before the imperials could respond, resulting in a campaign of terror where the poor imperials couldn't tell how we were getting from planet to planet or where we would strike next, and the despaired as planet after planet and system after system were lost to them, eventually panicking and literally destroying at least one planet before we could take it (a campaign event triggered by the loss of the planet, not something anyone actually decided, but still a very cool moment).

 

It didn't really matter that there wasn't actually a way we were getting from one planet to another. The rules of the campaign didn't figure for that, so neither did we. If the campaign had required space lane dominance to post wins to the planets within it, our tactics would have been different, but if posting to a single area could shut off a whole system, chaos wouldn't have stood a chance. Again, even then, at the height of chaos's popularity, we were one faction. A popular faction with a lot of players, but the imperials were six or more factions (I forget if the inquisition books were out at the time), including by a wide margin the most popular faction in the game (there are as many space marine players as there are players of every other faction combined).

[Gree]

Well yes, but my point is that fluffwise Chaos really lost the campaign. Abbadon failed.

[Azekai]

Ugh. Enough with the 'Abaddon failed' nonesense! What is this, 1d4chan?!

 

The entire setting is static! No one 'gets stuff done' because there is nowhere for the meta plot to go because there is no meta plot!

Cadia will never really fall, Abaddon will launch his little crusades forever, and the Emperor will sit. That is the setting, and it will never change.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Well yes, but my point is that fluffwise Chaos really lost the campaign. Abbadon failed.

 

How so, Gree? Cadia, the planet, was split in control -- it's few remaining kasrs under constant siege by Chaos forces. But the Cadian Gate, the passage by which Chaos forces can gain access to the Imperium from the Eye, has been breached. Chaos forces are now operating inside the Imperium, attacking planets behind Cadia, moving ever deeper into Segmentum Obscuras. It wasn't a crushing victory where we overran Cadia and Medusa and Nemesis Tessera and waltzed through to Segmentum Solar, but it was still a victory. The Eye is open, the Gate is open, and the Legions are now at large in Imperial space. Sounds like a win in my book.

[Sception]

What Deus said. The imperium may have more ships in the lanes, but they've got nowhere to dock them. And unless you already know where another ship is going to be in advance, there is simply no amount of naval dominance that will stop them from going where they want. Space is just too big.

 

So yeah, quite fluffy. Chaos disgorges from the eye in quantities too great to contain, devastate several worlds, establish chaos controlled areas of space outside of the eye, but the campaign stalls when Abby loses the planet killer and one of the fortresses, leaving the imperium with the naval dominance that they were inevitably going to have anyway due to having an entire galaxy churning out ships for them. As big a chaos victory as could be hoped for (well, short of cadia falling, but that wasn't going to happen), with as fluffy a reason for it to stall out as one could ask. Then GW rewound the timeline so it never happened, oh well.

[*Furyou Miko]

I still say that Chaos Marines are nothing but a decoy force and that the only way Chaos can win is by opening more and more warp rifts on more and more planets and letting the daemons out.

[Gree]

Well yes, but my point is that fluffwise Chaos really lost the campaign. Abbadon failed.

 

How so, Gree? Cadia, the planet, was split in control -- it's few remaining kasrs under constant siege by Chaos forces. But the Cadian Gate, the passage by which Chaos forces can gain access to the Imperium from the Eye, has been breached. Chaos forces are now operating inside the Imperium, attacking planets behind Cadia, moving ever deeper into Segmentum Obscuras. It wasn't a crushing victory where we overran Cadia and Medusa and Nemesis Tessera and waltzed through to Segmentum Solar, but it was still a victory. The Eye is open, the Gate is open, and the Legions are now at large in Imperial space. Sounds like a win in my book.

 

Except the Imperium has control of space. They dominate that area and if the campaign would have continued they would have continued to dominate even more. The Imperials actually surpassed their starting percentage. The thing is space is the ultimate high ground. With the Imperium controlling space all they have to do is simply cut off Chaos renforcements and move in their own near-limitless supply of renforcements to reconquer the areas.

 

When you control the space lanes ground warfare because's vanishingly irrelevant in the big picture. Orbit is pretty much the ultimate high ground. What should logically happen with the Imperium controlling space is the Imperial cutting off the Chaos forces from their logistics train, launching orbital bomardment without impunity on any Chaos forces on occupied worlds and rushing on renforcements. In all the Cadian sector should be cleared out in a few decades.

[Sception]

Except that:

 

1) for the most part, chaos doesn't just "open rifts". They're naturally occurring, engineered from without by mortal agents as the culmination of grand plots spanning decades if not centuries, or forced into being by entities of no less strength then the chaos gods. But even they are extremely weakened by such undertakings and thus generally refuse to use such power less their rivals gain the upper hand.

 

2) Chaos exist as a manifestation of the psychic energy of living beings. Daemonic incursions slaughter mortals and claim many souls, but as psychic entities manifesting singular compulsions, daemons suffer a fundamental lack of the restraint required to keep some living things around for future sustenance. A galaxy wide daemonic pandemic wouldn't result in a victory for the dark powers, but rather the eradication of sentient life, which would then leave the powers of the warp to starve to death.

 

 

No, the only sustainable victory for the forces of chaos has to come at the hands of their mortal agents - with the chaos marines as the greatest such agents the dark powers have ever had to work with.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Well yes, but my point is that fluffwise Chaos really lost the campaign. Abbadon failed.

 

How so, Gree? Cadia, the planet, was split in control -- it's few remaining kasrs under constant siege by Chaos forces. But the Cadian Gate, the passage by which Chaos forces can gain access to the Imperium from the Eye, has been breached. Chaos forces are now operating inside the Imperium, attacking planets behind Cadia, moving ever deeper into Segmentum Obscuras. It wasn't a crushing victory where we overran Cadia and Medusa and Nemesis Tessera and waltzed through to Segmentum Solar, but it was still a victory. The Eye is open, the Gate is open, and the Legions are now at large in Imperial space. Sounds like a win in my book.

 

Except the Imperium has control of space. They dominate that area and if the campaign would have continued they would have continued to dominate even more. The Imperials actually surpassed their starting percentage. The thing is space is the ultimate high ground. With the Imperium controlling space all they have to do is simply cut off Chaos renforcements and move in their own near-limitless supply of renforcements to reconquer the areas.

 

When you control the space lanes ground warfare because's vanishingly irrelevant in the big picture. Orbit is pretty much the ultimate high ground. What should logically happen with the Imperium controlling space is the Imperial cutting off the Chaos forces from their logistics train, launching orbital bomardment without impunity on any Chaos forces on occupied worlds and rushing on renforcements. In all the Cadian sector should be cleared out in a few decades.

 

 

Space is vast, Gree. Unimaginably so. And this isn't Star Wars, where the Empire can just chuck an Interdictor-class cruiser up and keep you static so they can beat on you. There's no way to pin a space-based force in one spot if it doesn't want to be pinned. Chaos doesn't have to conquer a damn thing. They can hit a world, take whatever bounty of slaves or materiel they want, and be gone in a month before the Imperial authorities can effectively respond to trap them on said world. Destroy an orbital yard here, nuke a hive-city there, and now that planet's entire subsector is screaming for reinforcements because they're afraid that they'll be next. Instead, the Chaos troops move on to another area entirely, and the Imperium remains one step behind.

 

The only way to stop the Legions' breakout from the Eye -- the only real, true, 100% foolproof way -- is for the Imperium to leave the way open to Terra. That's Abbadon's ultimate goal and everyone knows it. Marshal the single greatest military force since the First Siege of the Emperor's Palace, keep it in reserve, and let Abbadon attack the Sol System. Then take that nice, big hammer you've been saving and hit the Despoiler's invasion fleets with every single warship, battle-barge, fightercraft, and torpedo you can muster.

 

Other than that, Chaos can cat-and-mouse the Imperium's QRFs for eternity.

[Gree]

Space is vast, Gree. Unimaginably so. And this isn't Star Wars, where the Empire can just chuck an Interdictor-class cruiser up and keep you static so they can beat on you. There's no way to pin a space-based force in one spot if it doesn't want to be pinned. Chaos doesn't have to conquer a damn thing. They can hit a world, take whatever bounty of slaves or materiel they want, and be gone in a month before the Imperial authorities can effectively respond to trap them on said world. Destroy an orbital yard here, nuke a hive-city there, and now that planet's entire subsector is screaming for reinforcements because they're afraid that they'll be next. Instead, the Chaos troops move on to another area entirely, and the Imperium remains one step behind.

 

The only way to stop the Legions' breakout from the Eye -- the only real, true, 100% foolproof way -- is for the Imperium to leave the way open to Terra. That's Abbadon's ultimate goal and everyone knows it. Marshal the single greatest military force since the First Siege of the Emperor's Palace, keep it in reserve, and let Abbadon attack the Sol System. Then take that nice, big hammer you've been saving and hit the Despoiler's invasion fleets with every single warship, battle-barge, fightercraft, and torpedo you can muster.

 

Other than that, Chaos can cat-and-mouse the Imperium's QRFs for eternity.

 

You don't understand. The Imperium controls the space lanes around the Eye. occupying Cadia itself does not matter as long as you control the Space lanes. Witht he space lanes under Imperial control the door is firmly slammed shut and the remainder of the Chaos raiders can be hunted down.

 

The thing is, based on the results, Chaos did't really do that hot, and any Chaos forces on an Imperial world won't last long. Think of it like the Pacific Thearte in World War II. The US fleet controls the waves and keep the Japanese holed up in their littles islands. granted, now sea is far too big to completely cover, but the Japanese are forced on the defense because the Us domiantes the waves.

 

It's much the same here. The Imperium effectively controls the space lanes to each planet. They can cut off any Chaos renforcements while shipping their own on freely.That reflection of the game results was mirrored in the official line being that the Imperium let a couple of warbands slip early in the campaign but clamped down hard and now the only reinforcements the Chaos forces on Cadia and further out are getting are Daemonic. Because they can't sneak a damn thing through.

 

As for the roving warbands...

 

The Imperium has always had its defences run deep, and the forces that broke through did so in significant numbers yes, but not meaningful ones when it comes to their overall objectives. It is only a matter of time before they are worn down to the point where they are no greater a threat than any of the thousands of others the Imperium faces on a daily basis

[*Furyou Miko]

The only way to maintain space superiority is to have massive fleets in direct orbit, blockading the enemy shipyards / staging areas. At that point, you've basically won anyway.

 

Space is three dimensional. The ocean is not.

[Gree]

The only way to maintain space superiority is to have massive fleets in direct orbit, blockading the enemy shipyards / staging areas. At that point, you've basically won anyway.

 

Space is three dimensional. The ocean is not.

 

The principle is similar.

 

But really, IIRc the Imperium has massive space superioirty. Like overwhleming space superioirty in all areas. They can clamp down on the space lanes aroudn the Eye of Terror and prevent any more ships from going through. Any warbands that go through the Eye are now operating alone and unsupported. They might do some damage, but eventually the massive crusade-level Imperial renforcements are going to track them down and grind them to dust.

 

The Imperium can fill all their important worlds with battlefleets, patrol space lanes and dedicate forces to hunting down Chaos ships.

[Noctus Cornix]

See, here's the thing you're not getting Gree. As much as you like to thing the imperial navy is this end all be all gig, its not. The Imperium may have a near limitless supply of reinforcements but organization and communication is so broken and fractured that these assessts are cut off from each other. An astropathic message from Cadia to say Terra may take months, maybe even years to reach it. And even if these reinforcements do come, it would take years to amass the armaments needed to prepare for war.

 

And what about when they do reach the battle in time to see that virtually all the planets are won by chaos? After years of slow and daunting warfare, where are the ships going to resupply? Where are they going to refuel so they aren't just giant floating targets? It would be easy enough if they could just port at one of the fortress worlds except that they're all controlled by chaos or completely obliterated. Yes, imperial vessels have the power to level continents and destroy planets but you know what that does? That destroys all the supplies. All the resources that it took to resupply these city ships are now gone. Their ships are useless if they do that and it will take even more resources and even centuries to get the planets they just obliterated back to optimal level.

 

Space lanes are merely the safest routes through the void from planet to planet. This is a very important asset if, you're say cutting off merchant ships but you can't blockade entire systems from invasion forces. Chaos ships would be more than happy to take the long and dangerous routes if it means avoiding and ambushing imperial forces. And now we come to warp travel. Your space lane isn't even important if your enemy can just jump across space at will and it doesn't help when your enemy has daemons and sorcerers who can help them warp jump even easier.

 

There's nothing the Imperium can do to stop chaos now. The eye is open and hell follows with it.

[Gree]

See, here's the thing you're not getting Gree. As much as you like to thing the imperial navy is this end all be all gig, its not. The Imperium may have a near limitless supply of reinforcements but organization and communication is so broken and fractured that these assessts are cut off from each other. An astropathic message from Cadia to say Terra may take months, maybe even years to reach it. And even if these reinforcements do come, it would take years to amass the armaments needed to prepare for war.

 

That's not what the results say.

 

And what about when they do reach the battle in time to see that virtually all the planets are won by chaos?

 

How is that going to happen when the Imperium already has an overwhelming advantage in space? Remeber, space is the ultimate high ground.

 

It would be easy enough if they could just port at one of the fortress worlds except that they're all controlled by chaos or completely obliterated.

 

Any Chaos controlled worlds are not going to be in Chaos hands much longer I assure you.

 

Yes, imperial vessels have the power to level continents and destroy planets but you know what that does? That destroys all the supplies. All the resources that it took to resupply these city ships are now gone. Their ships are useless if they do that and it will take even more resources and even centuries to get the planets they just obliterated back to optimal level.

 

You do realize that the Imperium still controls large amounts of terrority right?

 

Space lanes are merely the safest routes through the void from planet to planet. This is a very important asset if, you're say cutting off merchant ships but you can't blockade entire systems from invasion forces. Chaos ships would be more than happy to take the long and dangerous routes if it means avoiding and ambushing imperial forces. And now we come to warp travel. Your space lane isn't even important if your enemy can just jump across space at will and it doesn't help when your enemy has daemons and sorcerers who can help them warp jump even easier.

 

Then by that logic the Cadian Gate is entirely useless and pointless if the Chaos ships can just laugh and jump past the Imperial defenses willy-nilly. Why make a fortess world right at the Eye if it's useless? Why put fleets right at the Eye of the Chaos forces can just casuallty ignore them like you claim?

 

There's nothing the Imperium can do to stop chaos now. The eye is open and hell follows with it.

 

Do you realize that's really not what the results say? In the campaign the Imperium had such an overwhelming advantage they actually tried to attack the EOT but Gw had to pull out some warp strom events to even the results for the Chaos side IIRC.

[Noctus Cornix]

-facepalm-

[Gree]

-facepalm-

 

Do you even realize my point at all? Are you familar with the results? The Imperials had such overwhelming control fo the space lanes they pretty much had a monopoly. And when I say ''space lanes.'' they basically had mastering over any kind of naval action or operation late in the campaigh.

 

Any forces on Chaos-controlled worlds are going to be choked on the vine and taken out at the Imperium's leisure. Any forces that got past the Cadian Gate ansd into the Imperium are goign to be hunted down by vastly superior numbers of Imperial Navy warships or gground down by the Segmeum Obscuras's extensive defenses, all while renforcements are being rushed into the region.

 

I am not judging by the fluff, I'm judging by the results, and Chaos was arguably losing in the truely important areasdespite GW's attempt to give the Chaos fans what they wanted.

[Noctus Cornix]

And as Mailisteen clearly stated earlier, there was an overwhelming number of Imperial players compared to any other faction. Of course they're going to have an overwhelming advantage in victories. The end result wasn't to make chaos players happy. It was to balance the campaign out.

[Azekai]

Seriously, this debate is old as the hills. Hardcore Imperials claim that they really won, while Chaos says they didn't. Hearts and minds are not going to be won on this, and frankly I am wondering why you even brought it up in our forums, Gree. Seems like you are trying to pick a fight rather than hold an honest discussion. :/

[Gree]

Seriously, this debate is old as the hills. Hardcore Imperials claim that they really won, while Chaos says they didn't. Hearts and minds are not going to be won on this, and frankly I am wondering why you even brought it up in our forums, Gree. Seems like you are trying to pick a fight rather than hold an honest discussion. :/

 

I brought up a subject on chaos's performance on a chaos form. Where else do you suggest I discuss this?

[Azekai]

Warseer.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Warseer.

 

:)

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Warseer.

 

Whilst funny - would also have accepted BoLS - you kinda slide in to the same terrain as you accuse Gree of occupying; trying to start an argument.

 

Smart arse comments have started more wars and ended more marriages than.. I have no idea where I'm going with that.

 

 

More on-topic: Who is to say what really happened? Results of battles have, historically at least, always been used as propaganda regardless of which side actually won so why not here?

 

Also, it is almost impossible to maintain total control ovre anything regardless of dimensions; smugglers, for instance, get everywhere and thrive on the ability to do so.

[incinerator950]

Well yes, but my point is that fluffwise Chaos really lost the campaign. Abbadon failed.

 

How so, Gree? Cadia, the planet, was split in control -- it's few remaining kasrs under constant siege by Chaos forces. But the Cadian Gate, the passage by which Chaos forces can gain access to the Imperium from the Eye, has been breached. Chaos forces are now operating inside the Imperium, attacking planets behind Cadia, moving ever deeper into Segmentum Obscuras. It wasn't a crushing victory where we overran Cadia and Medusa and Nemesis Tessera and waltzed through to Segmentum Solar, but it was still a victory. The Eye is open, the Gate is open, and the Legions are now at large in Imperial space. Sounds like a win in my book.

 

Just because you contest something doesn't mean you won. If anything, this was almost a Pyrrhic victory. The amount of Chaos forces leaving the eye unscathed are the same number who infiltrated or slipped around the Cadian Gate in the first place. Its considered a minor victory for Disorder with no real ground won, Cadia Contested, and the Tau Empire expanding. Don't forget GW had to nudge the Loyalists to use better coordination and remind them about how bonus rules worked for the Campaign.

[Eetion]

Well some pretty big claims here.... There used to be all the results posted up on da waaagh but i cant seem to find them.

 

The Imperium did indeed control the space lanes, they did not however control cadia (system) they had the capacity to move reinforcements from system to sytstem but it would still have been a hard slog to actually get reinforcements on the ground.

 

I will continue to look for all the location control % results so we can discuss this properly.

 

 

But until I find it.... consider the following

 

 

Battlefleet Solar had to fill the gap for Imperium and Segmentum Solar now is undermanned with the fleet. There is a Daemon world within the Imperial Space.

Chaos forces are over and through the gate in numbers never before seen, and the surrounding sectors are on the whole, burning.