Hyaenidae Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Evening, Ladies and Gents. So, here's the topic. Let's say you've seen a real cool DIY army created by someone else in the past, either fluff or minis, or maybe a mix of both. You think they'd be real neat to build an army off of, but the fluff is skimpy, or there's no heraldry, etc. The original owner/creator can no longer be contacted (example: a person who once used this forum, but was Excommunicated), or it is borderline insane to contact them and get a response (Example: A one page article on a well painted DIY you saw once in a White Dwarf). Here's the question: Would it be a Faux Pas to build off of their work? To create an army based off of their original design, and expand on what they cannot / will not, fluffwise? Of course, credit for the original design would go to the first creator. Thoughts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258611-breathing-new-life-into-old-fluff/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Argent Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 It depends really. If the person is no longer around then I see no harm in adopting their Chapter fluffwise or if they give permission for you to do such. Take the Iron Knights for example, they were/are a GW staff members creation who did well at some tournaments and suddenly bam, they are official. There have been several attempts over the years by Liberites to develop these chapters. That is the great thing about the concept of a shared universe. I feel I must point out, however, that there have been occasions of DIY creaters getting upset about people using their creation, such as Angels_Blade when he started painting his guys in a DIY scheme only to have the owner of the scheme and chapter get upset. In the end he just made up his ow Chapter and that is what I suggest you do. I've seen your fluff for your models and I think, with the assistance of the madness that is Liber Astartes, you could create a awesome Chapter that is completely yours. Trust me, nothing is more satisfying then knowing that the guys you field are your creation, not the brain child of someone else. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258611-breathing-new-life-into-old-fluff/#findComment-3144584 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeger Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Meh, I say do as you please. I see people building armies based on other people's fluff all the time. The Ultramaines come readily to mind, along with every other index chapter that people adopt as their own army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258611-breathing-new-life-into-old-fluff/#findComment-3144603 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reyner Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Go for it Heathens, is this about the Hellion guys? :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258611-breathing-new-life-into-old-fluff/#findComment-3144831 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 If they have already written background I would suggest leaving that alone; plagiarism is not a pretty thing, regardless of intention. Just because something is in the public domain, doesn't mean you can do what you want with it. Can=/=should. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258611-breathing-new-life-into-old-fluff/#findComment-3144834 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 I was very happy to have another person commission my painter to do a Sons of Pyron army for them. Fluff wise .... I'd say no, not good to change others ideas. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258611-breathing-new-life-into-old-fluff/#findComment-3144842 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dosjetka Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 I disagree with the two posters above. Plagiarism is copy/paste of someone's text and say it's your own. That's not OK. However, I think if you take stuff you like in a Chapter but make it your own flavour, then that's fine. It's done with so many official Chapters, so why not do it with DIY Chapters? Just make sure you credit the original author somewhere (maybe even make him a character in the Chapter, in addition to putting his name at the end?). Ludovic Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258611-breathing-new-life-into-old-fluff/#findComment-3146058 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Debonair Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 Here's the question: Would it be a Faux Pas to build off of their work? To create an army based off of their original design, and expand on what they cannot / will not, fluffwise? Of course, credit for the original design would go to the first creator. I'd say go for it, but always be ready to change your stuff if the original creator gets narky about it. ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258611-breathing-new-life-into-old-fluff/#findComment-3146971 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackalos Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 I disagree with the two posters above. Plagiarism is copy/paste of someone's text and say it's your own. That's not OK. However, I think if you take stuff you like in a Chapter but make it your own flavour, then that's fine. It's done with so many official Chapters, so why not do it with DIY Chapters? Just make sure you credit the original author somewhere (maybe even make him a character in the Chapter, in addition to putting his name at the end?). Ludovic This. When an artist covers a song, they don't get accused of plagiarism if they give credit where it's due. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258611-breathing-new-life-into-old-fluff/#findComment-3146998 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 I disagree with the two posters above. Plagiarism is copy/paste of someone's text and say it's your own. That's not OK. However, I think if you take stuff you like in a Chapter but make it your own flavour, then that's fine. It's done with so many official Chapters, so why not do it with DIY Chapters? Just make sure you credit the original author somewhere (maybe even make him a character in the Chapter, in addition to putting his name at the end?). Ludovic This. When an artist covers a song, they don't get accused of plagiarism if they give credit where it's due. Except they have to have permission to perform that song from whoever holds the rights. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258611-breathing-new-life-into-old-fluff/#findComment-3147015 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dosjetka Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 Except they have to have permission to perform that song from whoever holds the rights. Yes, they need the permission because they're going to sell the song afterwards. Ludovic Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258611-breathing-new-life-into-old-fluff/#findComment-3147113 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted August 12, 2012 Author Share Posted August 12, 2012 Alright let me clarify some points: First, my decision has already been made, but the thought about the ethics of such an action did raise the quiestion I originally posted. I'm not really asking if y'all think it's alright for me to do it, but if it's alright in general, in your opinion. A thought exercise, if you will. Second, as mentioned in the first post, the original creator would recieve full credit for the original inception of the idea / color scheme/ fluff. Third, the originators fluff would not be changed, only added to. Their ideas would not be altered, only expanded upon. Fourth, if expanding upon the fluff is considered plagiarism, then what about people who expand upon GW's chapter fluff? If someone makes a company of Ultramarines and says that they served is 'such and such' battle, and that battle doesn't really exist in canon, then wouldn't that be considered plagiarism? What about a chapter that only exists in name and heraldry in canon; wouldn't creating a history for them be considered a form of plagiarism? If we follow that train of thought, aren't all DIY Chapters a form of plagiarism, since we ae not asking GW directly if we are allowed to create said Chapter? EDIT: @Silver Phoenix: I am totally incapable of creating an IA, period. The exacting demands of the Liber sucks the fun out of a DIY for me, since it seems the Liber needs individuals to be primo authors to ever be accepted here. Hell, when's the last time a IA has been accepted into the Librarium here? November of 2010. That's... insane. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258611-breathing-new-life-into-old-fluff/#findComment-3147263 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dosjetka Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 EDIT: @Silver Phoenix: I am totally incapable of creating an IA, period. The exacting demands of the Liber sucks the fun out of a DIY for me, since it seems the Liber needs individuals to be primo authors to ever be accepted here. Hell, when's the last time a IA has been accepted into the Librarium here? November of 2010. That's... insane. Maybe because the Librarium has been closed since round about then and so no-one could submit anything to the Librarium...? And I find it a shame that you see it that way, because you of all people have the potential to create a great IA. But if you don't enjoy the process, then there's not much point in you creating one. Ludovic Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258611-breathing-new-life-into-old-fluff/#findComment-3147497 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted August 13, 2012 Author Share Posted August 13, 2012 Maybe because the Librarium has been closed since round about then and so no-one could submit anything to the Librarium...? Fair enough, I didn't know this. That's a real shame; a goal like having your work immortalized seems like a great motivator. Why was the Librarium closed anyway? And I find it a shame that you see it that way, because you of all people have the potential to create a great IA. But if you don't enjoy the process, then there's not much point in you creating one. I really don't feel that I could possibly create an IA because the standards here in the Liber feel very, very strict. I really do enjoy the process, honest; I just feel like it would never be good enough for the B&C, or the standards that have been created in the Liber. There are some great IA's here, but I've seen some individuals working on theirs for years, to no avail. BL authors have created series of books in less time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258611-breathing-new-life-into-old-fluff/#findComment-3147512 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 Maybe because the Librarium has been closed since round about then and so no-one could submit anything to the Librarium...? Fair enough, I didn't know this. That's a real shame; a goal like having your work immortalized seems like a great motivator. Why was the Librarium closed anyway? The board software has been and still is changing and is on it's way to the next version. I believe when the next version of the board is released, then the Librarium will be reopened. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258611-breathing-new-life-into-old-fluff/#findComment-3147583 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Debonair Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 I really don't feel that I could possibly create an IA because the standards here in the Liber feel very, very strict. I really do enjoy the process, honest; I just feel like it would never be good enough for the B&C, or the standards that have been created in the Liber. There are some great IA's here, but I've seen some individuals working on theirs for years, to no avail. BL authors have created series of books in less time. First, if I've contributed anything to add to that attitude, then my most profuse apologies. I like to help people push themselves, sure, but not to the point of excluding others. :huh: Second, balderdash. If my IAs are good enough that I don't get them picked to their component atoms anymore when I post them, then anyone can write one. :P And thirdly, if I was published-author-grade good at this, I'd be writing books for a living instead of making up DIY chapters. ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258611-breathing-new-life-into-old-fluff/#findComment-3147651 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 There are IAs waiting for the reopening of the Librarium ... its just taken a long time for the update. As to C&C .... some will be harsh, others not .... most will be helpful either way. Take it all in stride. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258611-breathing-new-life-into-old-fluff/#findComment-3147692 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donkey Kong Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 In regards to the question presented in the OP: I think it's perfectly acceptable provided you take all the steps you've mentioned: crediting your source, possibly even citing their work if you're going to paraphrase. I would recommend against copy pasting, if only because no two writing styles are the same, and something will look out of place in the final product. Now, EDIT: @Silver Phoenix: I am totally incapable of creating an IA, period. The exacting demands of the Liber sucks the fun out of a DIY for me, since it seems the Liber needs individuals to be primo authors to ever be accepted here. I really don't feel that I could possibly create an IA because the standards here in the Liber feel very, very strict. I really do enjoy the process, honest; I just feel like it would never be good enough for the B&C, or the standards that have been created in the Liber. There are some great IA's here, but I've seen some individuals working on theirs for years, to no avail. BL authors have created series of books in less time. I'm sorry, man, but that's just a terrible attitude to have. As far as I am aware, the Liber "demands" two things: fitting within the (broad) confines of the source material, and good quality work. There are articles in the Liber that even ignore those rules, like the Dornian Heresy IAs. One of the first articles to enter the Librarium was SCC's Brazen Claws, his interpretation of a Games Workshop Chapter with little more than a color scheme, a symbol, and a footnote mention of their demise in one of the latest publications. My article entered the Librarium on January 24, 2010. That means that I was fifteen years old when I finished writing the Death Heads. Fifteen! That article has since been scrapped, rewritten, and I'm eagerly awaiting updating the article in the Librarium. IAs are a constant work in progress. There's no need to say that you'll never make it. No one expects you to be an author. Authors can write their series in two years because that's their job. This is your hobby, and should be a labor of love. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258611-breathing-new-life-into-old-fluff/#findComment-3147848 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Argent Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 EDIT: @Silver Phoenix: I am totally incapable of creating an IA, period. The exacting demands of the Liber sucks the fun out of a DIY for me, since it seems the Liber needs individuals to be primo authors to ever be accepted here. Hell, when's the last time a IA has been accepted into the Librarium here? November of 2010. That's... insane. Although it saddens me to see that and I can see where you are coming from. It seems we have two types of people here in Liber. The people who are happy to help regardles of the idea and then ever so often we have an unfortunate elitist streak creep in with a few. The problem is that this will happen with any community, regardless of what it is they do. I, personally, would like to think that the nice guys out weigh the elitists but I'm not so sure. All I know is this, regardless of the people whom offer 'help' and whatever way it is offered I am 100% sure that you could create an awesome DIY Chapter. Ignore the demands you think are too exacting and just have fun making the Chapter. Acceptance into the Librarium (when it re-opens) is something to be proud of sure, but its not the be all and end all of DIY Chapter makig. The important thing is that you have fun, regardless of what anyone else thinks, and that you are happy with the Chapter you create in the end. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258611-breathing-new-life-into-old-fluff/#findComment-3148281 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dosjetka Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Although it saddens me to see that and I can see where you are coming from. It seems we have two types of people here in Liber. The people who are happy to help regardles of the idea and then ever so often we have an unfortunate elitist streak creep in with a few. The problem is that this will happen with any community, regardless of what it is they do. I, personally, would like to think that the nice guys out weigh the elitists but I'm not so sure. All I know is this, regardless of the people whom offer 'help' and whatever way it is offered I am 100% sure that you could create an awesome DIY Chapter. Ignore the demands you think are too exacting and just have fun making the Chapter. Acceptance into the Librarium (when it re-opens) is something to be proud of sure, but its not the be all and end all of DIY Chapter makig. The important thing is that you have fun, regardless of what anyone else thinks, and that you are happy with the Chapter you create in the end. This. Give it another go, heathens. You really do have the potential! Ludovic Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258611-breathing-new-life-into-old-fluff/#findComment-3148430 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Debonair Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 My article entered the Librarium on January 24, 2010. That means that I was fifteen years old when I finished writing the Death Heads. Fifteen! That article has since been scrapped, rewritten, and I'm eagerly awaiting updating the article in the Librarium. IAs are a constant work in progress. There's no need to say that you'll never make it. No one expects you to be an author. Authors can write their series in two years because that's their job. This is your hobby, and should be a labor of love. In contrast, I'm ten years older than KHK and haven't got any of my Chapters into the Librarium (yet B) ). I have, however, got several chapter concepts I'm pretty happy with (and the Steel Dragons :D ), which is an end goal in and of itself. The other difference between writing an IA and writing a book is that you finish books, whereas an IA can always evolve in one way or another. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258611-breathing-new-life-into-old-fluff/#findComment-3148447 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reyner Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Go for it heathens, no harm in trying! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258611-breathing-new-life-into-old-fluff/#findComment-3148550 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Which Chapter do you wanna do? There are only a few IAs that are 'sacred' and that in part has alot to do with the respect those creators earned through community interaction and even then that doesn't make them untouchable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258611-breathing-new-life-into-old-fluff/#findComment-3148597 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adeptus-Alaska Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Soooooo, the Iron Knights, Who created them? I was actually gearing up to start a force of them, with new fluff. This thread definately caught my eye. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258611-breathing-new-life-into-old-fluff/#findComment-3148714 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Soooooo, the Iron Knights, Who created them? I was actually gearing up to start a force of them, with new fluff. This thread definately caught my eye. A GW staffer. The Feast of Blades bit about them is one of the coolest bits of misc. fluff in 40k. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258611-breathing-new-life-into-old-fluff/#findComment-3148782 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.