JMac Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 If you could pay 80 pts to give one of the best troop choices in the game outflank, would you? It is something I have been thinking about for a while now, and the more I play, the more I find it appealing. If you attach a WGBL with Saga of the Hunter, you enable Outflank and Stealth to the Grey Hunters. Why would you want Outflank on Grey Hunters? Isn't that overkill? Maybe, but things have changed in 6th ed. Deployment zones have changed drastically. You and your opponent are always starting 24" away from each other, whereas in the 5th Dawn of War deployment, you could end up within 18". On top of that, Hammer and Anvil deployment encourage Outflanking units as the left and right table edges stretch from 48" to 72". Linebreaker is the secondary objective that says you score 1 VP by having a scoring or denial unit in the enemies deployment zone. Outflanking gets you there. Maneuverability and positioning is the name of the game in 6th, and while some believe the transport is dead (I do not, I believe they are just as good if not better in 6th), I propose Outflank is a decent alternative. It can move you into position majority of the time by turn 2 or 3 giving you 2-3 turns of movement, shooting and assaulting if need be. Grey Hunters will actually make use of their Acute Senses. With an attached WG in terminator armor, the squad becomes much more survivable. His 2+ mixed with the wolf standard makes the squad incredibly durable during that round of combat. Now it comes down to how to kit out the squad. I propose full strength with a flamer, plasma gun, MotW, and a wolf standard. This keeps them cheap (175 pts), efficient and prepared to handle most things. With an attached WGBL and WG in TDA, the squad weighs in just under 300 points. To recap, those 300 points snags you a durable, scoring, outflanking unit with acute senses and stealth. What do you think? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258665-outflanking-grey-hunters/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Firelupus Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 It depends on how many points the game is. I like the unit and i have been thinking the exact same thing except 8 man with WGBL and WGPL in power armor all mounted in a Rhino. It would get you there quicker, but 300 pts is a lot i play 1250 mostly so a quarter of my points not on the board makes it harder for the rest, but outflank and stealth does add great tactical flexibility. Best bet is to try it and see. My 2 cents anyway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258665-outflanking-grey-hunters/#findComment-3145198 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearingtheword Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 I have been thinking the exact same thing.... After lots of thought on it (I think) I have decided to run Bran Redmaw, who gets Saga of the Hunter, which applies to him and the Fen wolves I run him with and his "patient killers" SR, which allows a GH unit in the force to use the "Infiltrate and "Behind Enemy Lines", SR's just like wolf scouts (So we then have a GH pack as above and add a Rune Priest to them.) Then add a Wolf Priest with Saga of the Hunter to a second GH unit like you described above and that gives me 3 units that are going to be in the enemy deployment zones. Add to that a 2nd Rune priest on a bike, with a WGPL on a bike and 2 bikes and 1 attack bike for a nice highly mobile pack, as well as a plas/ccw w/flamer dred and a pair of preds for some heavy support. Gives me some punch at the start of the game while waiting for the others to arrive. As I usually play games at the 1999 mark I even have some points left to work with. It's an idea I have been giving some serious thought to, and once I fine tune the list it's likely what I'll be running.... ~BtW Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258665-outflanking-grey-hunters/#findComment-3145381 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMac Posted August 10, 2012 Author Share Posted August 10, 2012 It depends on how many points the game is. I like the unit and i have been thinking the exact same thing except 8 man with WGBL and WGPL in power armor all mounted in a Rhino. It would get you there quicker, but 300 pts is a lot i play 1250 mostly so a quarter of my points not on the board makes it harder for the rest, but outflank and stealth does add great tactical flexibility. Best bet is to try it and see. My 2 cents anyway. Yeah, I see your point. I generally play 1500-1750 pts, so I can afford a distraction unit. At 1250 though, you could build a force around it, competitively speaking of course. Something else to consider is sticking a WP in the squad instead also granting them Preferred Enemy for 30 extra points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258665-outflanking-grey-hunters/#findComment-3145482 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baluc Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 It depends on how many points the game is. I like the unit and i have been thinking the exact same thing except 8 man with WGBL and WGPL in power armor all mounted in a Rhino. It would get you there quicker, but 300 pts is a lot i play 1250 mostly so a quarter of my points not on the board makes it harder for the rest, but outflank and stealth does add great tactical flexibility. Best bet is to try it and see. My 2 cents anyway. Yeah, I see your point. I generally play 1500-1750 pts, so I can afford a distraction unit. At 1250 though, you could build a force around it, competitively speaking of course. Something else to consider is sticking a WP in the squad instead also granting them Preferred Enemy for 30 extra points. There is only three reason to take the wgbl over a wolf priest. Not having the points. Fen wolves And I5. Otherwise the wolf priest is better in everyway. fearless, prefered enemy, power weapon a invuln that doesn't require losing an attack. So unless you require fen wolves or I5 stick with the wolf priest. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258665-outflanking-grey-hunters/#findComment-3145700 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMac Posted August 10, 2012 Author Share Posted August 10, 2012 Indefinitely! I agree 100%. 40 pts is a lot more though, and if we are strictly talking about getting the GHs to outflank for cheap, the WGBL is the way to go. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258665-outflanking-grey-hunters/#findComment-3145899 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfebane Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Indefinitely! I agree 100%. 40 pts is a lot more though, and if we are strictly talking about getting the GHs to outflank for cheap, the WGBL is the way to go. Only 30 pts difference. The WGBL will also cost 10pts more to take SoH. And he may be cheaper , but not nearly as potentially lethal. Plus, with the WP you can toss out the wolf standard, and won't have to buy a power weapon for your WGBL. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258665-outflanking-grey-hunters/#findComment-3145912 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMac Posted August 11, 2012 Author Share Posted August 11, 2012 WHY WOULD YOU EVER TOSS OUT A WOLF STANDARD!?! It is the one piece of war gear I would NEVER leave without. It is waaaaaaay too good for its point cost. Aside from that, you are right, my math was off and it is only 30 pts different. WGBL offers things that the priest can't take though, such as MotW and Fenrisian Wolves. I am not in anyway trying to argue the WGBL is better, but simply pointing out in an already competitive HQ Force Org, that for 80 pts you can give outflank to GH. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258665-outflanking-grey-hunters/#findComment-3146164 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hear da Lamentation Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 I have also been thinking about this type of unit ... as I like the potential for bringing on a large 12 man unit just where you want it with a couple of AP2 people in it and bristling with plasmas. I agree a WG with termie is a great idea, although I too would go with WP for the reasons mentioned above and the bonus he gives to the plasma shooting grey hunters. My only feeling is that you need to have a fast moving unit to be able to back them up, otherwise they are going to get shot to hell or assaulted quickly. Whether w rhino can perform that task now it is quicker moving, I don't know. Bikers or TWC are other options for this task. The other benefit is that reserves now come in a little quicker (1 more on d6). One question ..... is behind enemy lines completely gone now (for our scouts). Is it outflanking only? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258665-outflanking-grey-hunters/#findComment-3146318 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 One question ..... is behind enemy lines completely gone now (for our scouts). Is it outflanking only? Our Wolf Scouts still have BEL, it's in our Codex (Codex > BRB). What's got you wondering? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258665-outflanking-grey-hunters/#findComment-3146321 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Why outflank for 80 points if you can use a Droppod for 35 points. Outflank has been nerfed in regards to being able to assault. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258665-outflanking-grey-hunters/#findComment-3146362 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baluc Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Why outflank for 80 points if you can use a Droppod for 35 points. Outflank has been nerfed in regards to being able to assault. Because every soilder is a rifleman. And shooting is generally safer than assaulting. 10 hunters +cyclone wolfgaurd + wolf priest can put out 5 S8 ap2 and 2 s8 ap3 shots with prefered enemy along either short side. Even with thr new disembark rules I prefer the safety of outflank to get my hunters in. I like drop pods for my dreads as I can squeeze them in between terrain blocking my squads from being assaulted. My 6th list is evolving into includes the pack above, 10 scouts 7 bolters, melta, 2 plasma and wg. One drop pod dread and one drop pod terminator squad + logan. Looking for a third pod. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258665-outflanking-grey-hunters/#findComment-3146370 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMac Posted August 12, 2012 Author Share Posted August 12, 2012 Why outflank for 80 points if you can use a Droppod for 35 points. Outflank has been nerfed in regards to being able to assault. I think you raise a valid point. Why pay more for the same effect, especially when DPs got a huge boost in this edition. Let's weigh our options: Drop Pod: It doesn't rely on reserve rolls as it automatically comes in first turn. You can use the DP as a LOS blocking, or even lane blocking given the right terrain conditions. You can come down in the middle of the board, whereas outflank must come off the sides. Outflank: Not limited to a squad size of 10. Precision arrival, no scatter plus acute senses means they go where you need them to a lot of the time. Coming in later in the game can (or cannot) be a good thing; there is more time to take out bigger threats to them before the arrive. I may missed a lot, so please, discuss with me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258665-outflanking-grey-hunters/#findComment-3147096 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belfast Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 Let's weigh our options: Drop Pod: It doesn't rely on reserve rolls as it automatically comes in first turn. You can use the DP as a LOS blocking, or even lane blocking given the right terrain conditions. You can come down in the middle of the board, whereas outflank must come off the sides. Outflank: Not limited to a squad size of 10. Precision arrival, no scatter plus acute senses means they go where you need them to a lot of the time. Coming in later in the game can (or cannot) be a good thing; there is more time to take out bigger threats to them before the arrive. you make a very valid point there. Since half of your drop pods rounded up must enter play on turn 1, dropping them in the back field which is what makes outflank so appealing imo, especially if the board is set up as hammer and anvil may not always be the most beneficial option on turn 1 while later in the game it's worth goes up tremendously. Because of this, if you want an element of randomness or to have a squad of grey hunters enter late game via drop pod, you must buy 2 drop pods. Basically, you're looking at spending 70 points to have as similar an effect as possible to buying a 80+ point wgbl or a 110+ Wolf Lord/Wolf priest. With this in mind, removing the scatter dice rolls, mishap table, and and being free victory points against you in the purge the alien scenario, a Saga of the Hunter WGBL is probably the safer choice Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258665-outflanking-grey-hunters/#findComment-3147367 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 The primary reason, in my opinion, of going for the Outflanking unit of Grey Hunters, is to take advantage of the ability to go beyond the 10-Marine transport limitation of Pods and Rhinos. In my own list, I'm going with a setup of 3x Consolidation Units of Grey Hunters in Drop Pods (which will be full 10-Marine packs, to take advantage of the free additional special weapon), and 1x Assault unit of Grey Hunters that will Outflank. Using Outflank, for the additional points beyond the Drop Pod, allows me to still take a full pack, get the additional special weapon, while also attaching a Wolf Guard Leader and an Independent Character (in my case, the Wolf Priest). I could even give the Wolf Guard Leader TDA, if I wished. In this case, I am able to build the unit that I think I need to accomplish the task assigned to it, while still maintaining a good degree of flexibility and operational mobility. A Wolf Priest (or Battle Leader), leading a unit on an Outflank is cool, too; let's not forget that, no matter what the actual effectiveness might be ;) Valerian Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258665-outflanking-grey-hunters/#findComment-3149620 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hear da Lamentation Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 Valerian sums it all up there for me. Big unit of 12 GH, with termie, lots of plasma and a nails WP is a really nice unit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258665-outflanking-grey-hunters/#findComment-3149689 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Brother 92 Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 Valerian sums it all up there for me. Big unit of 12 GH, with termie, lots of plasma and a nails WP is a really nice unit. only 10 GH tops in a pack... but yes, give your guys a PP and 2 PGs, TDAWG w/ C-Plas or PAWG w/ 2 PPs and MoTW and add in a WP w/ SoH and PP - then if you've got the points (perhaps playing 2k) add in a biomancy/divination RP just for the extra Bang! Crackle! Boom! :cuss Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258665-outflanking-grey-hunters/#findComment-3149726 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khine Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 What about a full pack of 15 Bloodclaws, with WP in a raider? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258665-outflanking-grey-hunters/#findComment-3150098 Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. A. K. Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Only a dedicated transport can outflank with the squad, not any old tank they are in. Sorry G Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258665-outflanking-grey-hunters/#findComment-3150102 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spazmonkey Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Though it does bring up a good point, have people had success outflanking with hammer units. Say 10wg in PA with WP in crusader, all using power weapons/axes with combi plasma. chuck in a cyclone TDA for punch... hell even a second TDA with chain fist as a can opener...... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258665-outflanking-grey-hunters/#findComment-3161658 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khine Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Only a dedicated transport can outflank with the squad, not any old tank they are in. Sorry G Yeah my bad was thinking wolfguard but reading blood claws at the time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258665-outflanking-grey-hunters/#findComment-3161690 Share on other sites More sharing options...
old git Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 I'd like to try attaching a wolf priest with Saga of the Hunter to a plasma heavy hunter pack and outflank them. Together with a plasma scout pack, and with a favourable dice roll or two, two hard hitting wolf packs turning up on the same flank sounds a good thing. Has anyone tried anything similar, and what was the outcome? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258665-outflanking-grey-hunters/#findComment-3173338 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WG Vrox Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 - I had a successful game against Necrons using a combination of 3 pods and a outflanking unit of Grey Hunters with WP. I am horrible at rolling 1s when shooting plasma so I run 1 melta with 2nd choice as plasma gun. I do run my WP with a Plasma Pistol since he has Runic Armor which I suggest both pieces as a smart upgrades. Second game against guard was not so good but they still performed well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258665-outflanking-grey-hunters/#findComment-3173344 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfebane Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 You crazy, old git! Didn't your grandkids teach you the search function? XD http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;#entry3145195 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258665-outflanking-grey-hunters/#findComment-3173351 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 As Wulfebane mentioned there are two recent topics on the same thing. I've merged them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258665-outflanking-grey-hunters/#findComment-3173366 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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