Coteaz vs. Ordo Malleus Inquisitor

[ChaosPhoenix]

Hi there,

I've got a big block of Pallies (10 Guys, 4 Psycannons, PsyBolts) and I'm wondering which Inquisitor I should use. An Ordo Malleus Inquisitor in Terminator Armor with a Psycannon and Psychic Mastery level 1 is at 110pts, while Coteaz is 100 pts with Psychic Mastery level 2. If I take Divination one Power is enough but with a little luck powers like Misfortune work great in combination with the Primaris Power. While both HQs have the same statline, the Ordo Malleus Inquisitor is a good ranged combatant and Coteaz is stuck with his bolt pistol.

Coteaz' brings some nice special rules which allow you to reroll to steal the first turn and shoot the crap out of any unit deepstriking 12" next to you. Then again, I wonder why anyone would deepstrike 12" near a Palladin unit with Psycannons.

 

Which one would you use? I'm in favor of Coteaz right now, because Divination can boost the Palladins massively.

 

 

 

I've got a question. The german FAQ says the following: "Coteaz is allowed to exchange the Psychic Powers in his profile with two Psychic Powers from Divination, Pyromancy and Telekinesis (in any combination)"

 

Am I able to take 1 power from Divination and 1 from Pyromancy?

[Gentlemanloser]

Yup.

 

Both the choices can bring Divination, so it really comes down to whether you want;

 

1: Coteazs special rules (including Henchmen as troops)

 

2: An extra Precision Shot Psycannon

 

Basically, that's it. Your playstyle and the rest of your list will also influence the decision.

[spartan249]

There's one more consideration. If you take Coteaz, that Paladin squad will not be able to deep strike with him, thus losing any psychic support. An OM Inquisitor in TDA can follow them in that situation while increasing their firepower output.

[ChaosPhoenix]

Yup.

 

Both the choices can bring Divination, so it really comes down to whether you want;

 

1: Coteazs special rules (including Henchmen as troops)

 

2: An extra Precision Shot Psycannon

 

Basically, that's it. Your playstyle and the rest of your list will also influence the decision.

And 3: Coteaz has another power and is able to use both. That's something nice too, isn't it?

 

There's one more consideration. If you take Coteaz, that Paladin squad will not be able to deep strike with him, thus losing any psychic support. An OM Inquisitor in TDA can follow them in that situation while increasing their firepower output.

 

Good one. I forgot about deepstriking, thanks :huh:.

[Gentlemanloser]

And 3: Coteaz has another power and is able to use both. That's something nice too, isn't it?

 

/Meh

 

Random power is random. Unless you luck out and roll for a good one, all you really want is the Divinity Primaris. Unless the other two have good Primaris powers you are gauranteed to get, I'd not really count on them.

[ChaosPhoenix]

And 3: Coteaz has another power and is able to use both. That's something nice too, isn't it?

 

/Meh

 

Random power is random. Unless you luck out and roll for a good one, all you really want is the Divinity Primaris. Unless the other two have good Primaris powers you are gauranteed to get, I'd not really count on them.

 

Yes it's random, but Divination has only 2 "meh" Powers and you can exchange one of those for a great power. In very few cases you pay for ML2 and loose a Psycanon for no benefit. In more cases you can make those 4 Psycannons you have more effective or more resilient. I'm still not convinced 2 powers are bad, if one of them is random (when the choices are good). But I think that's personal preferences.

[breng77]

I think my answer is this, if you want the option to deepstrike, take the Inquisitor. Otherwise run Cotaez.

 

here is my Reasoning

 

1.) 4 Psycannons (boosted by Presience for re-rolls) + 6 Storm bolters will kill most things so that extra psycannon (which fires on the same target) is overkill in many cases.

2.) Cotaez special rules: gives you some deep strike/outflank defense, gives you a better chance to sieze/not be siezed, henchmen as troops (nice bonus if you want some more scoring)

3.)Mastery Level 2: 2 Powers is very good, people down play them due to randomness but on divination: You can get the ability to force save re-rolls (awesome for paladins), get a 4++ save for the unit (again huge for paladins with cover being generally 5+), ignore cover(situationally huge against armies that rely on cover), Overwatch at full BS (great with paladins), Let Cotaez re-roll everything (very nice, but not that great probably would get swapped, but if you have it he stands in front and eats small arms fire, the reserves one is Meh (unless you have reserves), So your chance of getting a good second power is high.

4.)Remember Cotaez shoots his bird, not his pistol.

[ChaosPhoenix]

I think my answer is this, if you want the option to deepstrike, take the Inquisitor. Otherwise run Cotaez.

 

here is my Reasoning

 

1.) 4 Psycannons (boosted by Presience for re-rolls) + 6 Storm bolters will kill most things so that extra psycannon (which fires on the same target) is overkill in many cases.

2.) Cotaez special rules: gives you some deep strike/outflank defense, gives you a better chance to sieze/not be siezed, henchmen as troops (nice bonus if you want some more scoring)

3.)Mastery Level 2: 2 Powers is very good, people down play them due to randomness but on divination: You can get the ability to force save re-rolls (awesome for paladins), get a 4++ save for the unit (again huge for paladins with cover being generally 5+), ignore cover(situationally huge against armies that rely on cover), Overwatch at full BS (great with paladins), Let Cotaez re-roll everything (very nice, but not that great probably would get swapped, but if you have it he stands in front and eats small arms fire, the reserves one is Meh (unless you have reserves), So your chance of getting a good second power is high.

4.)Remember Cotaez shoots his bird, not his pistol.

 

Thanks for reminding me about the bird, forgot it completely and overkill is a good point. Another thing is that the 4++ power is buffed by Nemesis Swords, so it's 3++ then. And while you can't cast the same power twice, Coteaz could buff/ debuff two units. Something against him, is that he's got no invulnerable save what so ever and has to rely on Look out, Sir!

[breng77]

Which essentially gives him a 2+ invul save as long as he is in a squad. Which honestly in a paladin squad how often are you risking a 5++ with the OM Inquisitor. Lack of an invul is a much smaller deal in this edition as he can only be picked out if he fails a 2+, he also benefits from majority toughness at all times (except for determining instant death, or in a challange, but he will never be in a challange unless the paladins are all dead). And yes in CC any swords you have become 3++ with the 4++ invul save. Like I said for 10 points cheaper I think it is a no brainer choice for a paladin squad (in other circumstances I can argue for the other choice for the psycannon, like in regular terminators for instance, or a 5 man paladin squad, but 5 psycannons shooting at something with re-rolls, and potentially other effects, is a little much.)

 

Look at it this way against anything short of AV13 you are glancing it to death with 4 psycannons already, against AV13 4 psycannons with re-rolls should penetrate twice(2.4 times so might kill might not (AV14 is the same number of glances /pens), 5 psycannons is closer to 3 (2.9) which means you kill 3 Hull point vehicles with AV13 on a regular basis, but still need two rounds of shooting at AV14(in most cases).

[sirk]

I have already played the list in both variants and, at the moment, I think Coteaz is a better choice.

 

All the points you have discussed are good. I'll just discuss some of them.

 

1 - With the rule of autolose without a unit in play, you almost never want to deepstrike the main unit. Add to this that, if you want to get near the enemy fast, now you can scout the whole unit then move and also run, if you really wish to. This will take you much closer than an uncertain deepstriking most of the times (and with a lot more confidence).

 

2 - Divination is THE sphere. Having 1 random power among those is almost always better than a single psycannon, expecially since it is the 5th one. Both negating cover and making enemy reroll saves will result in more casualties than 4 more shots, 4++ could come handy and full BS overwatch plus counter attack will make you almost unassaltable (ok, this one you already were ^^).

Another Divination power that becomes really powerful is Psyker rerolls hit-wounds-saves. You place Coteaz just behind Draigo and you lo's to him all the saturation wounds so he can save them with a rerolled 2+, while Draigo saves all the rest (he is in front just to be sure you don't fail a lo's with a laser wound). I tried it, enemy will simply stop shooting at you with lower str weapons.

 

3 - Having 35/36 chances of not having 1st turn stolen, instead of 5/6, is a REALLY great boost on a strategic point of view. And everyone who played a Draigowing list knows how much strategy choices (expecially pre-game decisions and first turn placement) are important in this list.

 

4 - No one mentioned this: Coteaz has Excommunication has a basic power! There could be times when everything you want is just that power!! We know Grey Knights are one of the armies to beat nowadays and more than a demon player will field khorne hounds with fateweaver for a rerollable 2++ or, even worse, a flying bloodthirster with the same save!

And believe me, without that power, that is a game you don't want to play.. (I've played it. It was not funny!)

 

There is also the fact that you can buy a very cheap 12 pts troop with Coteaz... but I'd never mix the best of the best with crap cannon fodder ;)

 

my2cents

[spartan249]

Easy solution for khorne matchup: use fisticuffs instead of force weapons. Done deal.

[breng77]

I'm pretty sure you cannot elect not to swing with your close combat weapons, unless you have another special option available.

[spartan249]

We are allowed to use our close combat weapons, and we often do. However, it's not a requirement to use your best CCW.

 

Unless you can provide a page reference that restricts what you can use in CC, I do not think your point is valid, as it is both illogical and very different in rules style from the rest of the system.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

In 5th edition you had to use the force weapon (requirement was in the brb)... Not sure if this holds true now.

 

I see Coteaz as the better choice in most situations and he is a little bit cheaper too. I think most of the advantages for Coteaz have been listed already that I'm aware of... I was playing a game versus dark eldar this weekend and used him to except the challenge from Vect... Eventually Vect failed a shadowfield save and went splat while Coteaz still had his full compliment of wounds... So in the right situation he is actually quite good in a challenge which leaves the rest of your unit including Draigo to mop up.

 

Also since Coteaz is PML 2 he is a great backup to Draigo for the 4++ ward save versus enemy psychic powers.

 

G ;)

[breng77]

We are allowed to use our close combat weapons, and we often do. However, it's not a requirement to use your best CCW.

 

Unless you can provide a page reference that restricts what you can use in CC, I do not think your point is valid, as it is both illogical and very different in rules style from the rest of the system.

 

In order to strike in CC you must have a CC weapon P.51 states that if you have no specified weapon you get a single CC weapon with Profile S = User AP -, If you have a CC weapon you don't get this other weapon, the only time it gives you an option to choose what you use is if you have 2 CC weapons (GKs don't). The rules give you no option of choosing to use nothing (if you did what are your S and AP as if you don't use your force weapon you don't have another CC weapon).

 

SO while you are right that it is not required that you use your best CCW, you must use a CCW and you only have one. Also it is very logical that if they give a unit a better save against force weapons, what would the point be if anyone can choose not to use them.

[spartan249]

So apparently hands and feet don't automatically count as a CC weapon. Rather idiotic by my estimation. Insulting to martial arts as well, as a marine using "unarmed" attacks would still be stupidly devastating.

 

I suppose it's a moot point, as khornate hounds are fragile and bloodthirsters are few.

[breng77]

Yes you shoot the Khornate hounds, as for thirsters you might see one in some Daemon armies (rarely more than that).

 

But essentially hands and feet only count as a CC weapon if you don't have a CC weapon. Presumably the idea is that the Grey Knights are not going to know that their force weapons (more devastating than their fists) won't work in time to make the swap/understand that it is the force weapon that is being resisted and not their standard CC attacks.

 

Essentially playing it as you can always opt not to use your special CC weapon allows for far too much abuse within the rules.

[nurglez]

I picked the inquisitor in terminator armour, as my whole force is wearing terminator armor, and I love the conversion I have made. Coteaz does look cool but for me he suffers from being too cheap (his cost and his rules).

 

An extra psycannon is awesome. 20 str 7 rending shots that Reroll to hit... I love it :lol:

[Reclusiarch Darius]

They do different things.

 

TDA Malleus Inquisitor is designed to roll with other TDA units; he adds more Precision psycannon and grants re-rolls (never take anything but the Divination Primaris on him, he's only Mastery 1). He's better than Coteaz in that situation, as he brings a gun and the same re-rolls power to boost him+friends.

 

Coteaz, Master of Space and Time, is designed to provide two things. Firstly, he's a flexible hero, equally at home guiding plasma cannon servitors from the backfield, or going mid-field with Purifiers/close-combat Warband and hitting things with his hammer (and in both cases, he has two Divination powers to play with, one of which being the Primaris). Secondly, he provides Knights with a mini-Ally; Henchmen are 100% best buds with Knights, so we can load them into Ravens, join Tech-Marines to close-combat warbands etc. Henchmen also bring the most insanely cheap Razorspam in the entire game, Wolves and BA cry when you tell them we buy our Razorbacks with a 12pt scoring upgrade hidden inside. Double Force Org removes any oppertunity cost for bringing said Henchmen.