Death Company with boltguns

[JelliedBlood]

I've been playing 40k for a couple of weeks now and I've been writing down lists for ideas on how to expand my army. Looking through the army lists section of the Blood Angels part of this site, I've noticed that a lot of players put boltguns on part of their DC squads and I discussed this with one of the staff at my local store (who played BA in 4th ed and was getting back into the game) who said he didn't think there was much point in it and that DC should go for bolt pistol and chainswords so they can stick to what they're good at - assaulting.

 

I just want to understand what's the tactical advantage of using boltguns rather than the bolt pistol + chainsword and to decide whether I should do it with any DC in my lists.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

People put Boltguns on DC because they're Relentless and can therefore Rapid Fire and then charge. I personally agree with the staff at your store; I prefer the +1A and so I arm my guys with a pistol and a close combat weapon.

 

Though if you're giving any of them a single Power Fist or Thunder Hammer you might as well give them a Bolter since you don't get the +1A anyway...

[Dallas Drake]

I've been playing 40k for a couple of weeks now and I've been writing down lists for ideas on how to expand my army. Looking through the army lists section of the Blood Angels part of this site, I've noticed that a lot of players put boltguns on part of their DC squads and I discussed this with one of the staff at my local store (who played BA in 4th ed and was getting back into the game) who said he didn't think there was much point in it and that DC should go for bolt pistol and chainswords so they can stick to what they're good at - assaulting.

 

I just want to understand what's the tactical advantage of using boltguns rather than the bolt pistol + chainsword and to decide whether I should do it with any DC in my lists.

 

If you run your DC in a Rhino or in a Drop Pod then I can see the point in Bolters, you won't get a charge till at earliest next turn so you may as well shoot. If you run them in a Stormraven or in a Land Raider then there's not much point with Bolters, I'd rather have 5 x S5 attacks than 4 x S5 attacks & 2 Bolters shots, plus shooting up a unit you're going to charge with rapid firing weapons is generally a bad idea incase you fail the charge! I can see them looking good if you want that theme & you can always give a Power Fist or Thunder Hammer guy a Bolter (since he loses his extra attack anyway). But generally I think CCW & BP.

 

- Dallas

 

Ninjad!

[TrentL]

Guys using TH and PF's and other "Undwieldy" weapons that lose the +1AT for CC/Pistol are the ones who get bolters in my army.

 

But that being said... 10 DC coming out of a Drop Pod and shooting units with no cover... can really ruin someones day. Plus they have alot of staying power.

[JelliedBlood]

Ah well it's good to know I've wasted some money equipping some DC with boltguns. :(

I guess I can find some use for them though.

[Brother Nathan]

can always be handy to have some range, glancing the rear of a transport to death so you can charge the contents, kill faster units before you charge(ie geanstealers, harles) overwatch!!! to me all considered its 50/50...

[StJude]

Ah well it's good to know I've wasted some money equipping some DC with boltguns. :teehee:

I guess I can find some use for them though.

 

They are definitely not wasted.

 

Consider the following example. Lets say you have the following two units of Death Company that charge a 10man CSM squad armed with bolters, chainswords and bolt pistols. The first squad has 10 DC marines equipped with bolters and the second has 10 DC marines with chainsword and bolt pistol.

 

ALL NUMBERS ROUNDED UP

 

Here is the sequence of events when Squad "We Has Bolters" charges.

 

1.) 20 Rapid fire shots occcur before any blows are struck or overwatch occurs. (2.22 CSM casualties)

2.) CSM squad rapid fires overwatch shots with remaining squad members (0.29 DC Marine casualties)

3.) Blows are struck simultaneously in CC (1.15 DC Marine casualties and 5.76 CSM Casualties)

 

What this means when all the math is calculate out is that the DC comes out ahead with a net result of 6.54 casualties

 

When Squad "We has bolt pistols" charges, we have the same sequence of events, but it looks like this.

 

1.) 10 pistol shots occcur before any blows are struck or overwatch occurs. (1.11 CSM casualties)

2.) CSM squad rapid fires overwatch shots with remaining squad members (0.33 DC Marine casualties)

3.) Blows are struck simultaneously in CC (1.32 DC Marine casualties and 6.43 CSM Casualties)

 

In this scenario, the DC comes out ahead with a net result of 5.90 casualties

 

So what does this really show us? If you want to get technical and squeeze every last drop out for max efficiency, then bolters are a tad bit ahead.

 

In the grand scheme of things, there is not a huge amount of difference, and if you like the narrative aspect of your blood crazed plastic mens charging headlong pistols firing and chainswords flailing, by all means equip them as such.

 

I hope this helps put your mind at ease.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

You forgot to include the bit where the charge fails because the CSM you shot were at the front of the unit, then the CSM charge you.

[Wildcard101]

I equip some Death Company models with boltguns just to reduce their chances of overkilling MEQ opponents and being open to return fire during the opponent's turn.

 

I usually run 9 DC + Lemartes and a Librarian inside a Stormraven...

[John_f]

I run 50% Boltguns and 50% Bolt pistol + CCW. 10 man in drop pod.

[knife&fork]

You forgot to include the bit where the charge fails because the CSM you shot were at the front of the unit, then the CSM charge you.

 

He also 'forgot' the part where the BP+CCW squad didn't do anything all game because they were stuck with a 18" threat bubble.

 

Neither of those will happen if think about what you're doing when playing.

[StJude]

You forgot to include the bit where the charge fails because the CSM you shot were at the front of the unit, then the CSM charge you.

 

Always with the negative waves Moriarty, always with the negative waves...

 

I am sure I forgot a lot more than that. There are additional pros and cons for both loadouts and enough variables and alternate configurations to keep the Sweet Valley High School Mathletes busy every weekend so they graduate with their virtues still intact and wondering what beer tastes like.

 

The problem with your example is that scenario can happen with pistols or boltguns. Random charges are random and you can fail for that simple reason alone.

 

The goal was to let the OP know that he didn't "waste" money equipping his DC with Boltguns.

 

If you want to be legitimately critical, please calculate out the next round of combat when the extra attack on the bolt pistol and chainsword plastic mens would matter more. That would be a more useful exercise and might make a better case for that loadout.

[Dallas Drake]

If I had DC in a Rhino I'd have Boltguns all day long. Raven/LR, meh I'm not so bothered. Boltguns give you tactical flexability, if that's what you want or need then great, use them. There is no huge difference really, although consider that you get re-rolls to hit/wound with the Chaplain only in CC & not with shooting.

 

- Dallas

[Drunken Angel]

I've been playing 40k for a couple of weeks now and I've been writing down lists for ideas on how to expand my army. Looking through the army lists section of the Blood Angels part of this site, I've noticed that a lot of players put boltguns on part of their DC squads and I discussed this with one of the staff at my local store (who played BA in 4th ed and was getting back into the game) who said he didn't think there was much point in it and that DC should go for bolt pistol and chainswords so they can stick to what they're good at - assaulting.

 

I just want to understand what's the tactical advantage of using boltguns rather than the bolt pistol + chainsword and to decide whether I should do it with any DC in my lists.

 

 

Expand the bolt pistol vs bolter thought a little bit more. Consider librarians and their tactical advantages when used with units like DC with bolters.

You want a librarian in almost any list these days and he is a great swiss knife IC even with DC.

A librarian with the divination primaris power prescience plays very well to DC with boltguns giving them re-rolls to hit in shooting and in CC (not wounding) thats a very strong DC unit. You could seriously consider taking DC with boltguns, especially if your list includes a librarian. Re-rolls to hit in two phases is pretty cool, that powerfist DC guy shoots twice then smacks Sangiunius's enemies four times with a fist at WS5 re-rolling to hit at S9, he is wounding on 2's anyway.

There are some great buffs in there.

Here are 4 very useful powers all help a DC unit with boltguns,

Foreboding (confers counter attack on DC and full BS on overwatch, does that mean DC get furious charge I wonder?) nids/orcs/eldar will hate this.

Forewarning (4++ invun on DC? awesomesauce!)

Perfect timing (ignores cover) and

Missfortune (forces successfull saves to be re-rolled).

The boltgun can give you a lot of flexibility when matched with IC's other than chaplains. B)

 

Bolter = 30 inch shooting threat, DC are relentless remember, thats a lot of re-rolled shooting with divination as you close, all the time getting FNP.

Figure the stats on say 12 DC and 2 power fists thats 290 points for 12 x 24 point models that have a 5+ FNP. They shoot and move most likely with re-rolls for shooting and combat from divination. If the power fists dont get picked off they will flatten MEQ in CC. Anyone wanting to torrent them down is not shooting at anything else either.

[Dallas Drake]

I've been playing 40k for a couple of weeks now and I've been writing down lists for ideas on how to expand my army. Looking through the army lists section of the Blood Angels part of this site, I've noticed that a lot of players put boltguns on part of their DC squads and I discussed this with one of the staff at my local store (who played BA in 4th ed and was getting back into the game) who said he didn't think there was much point in it and that DC should go for bolt pistol and chainswords so they can stick to what they're good at - assaulting.

 

I just want to understand what's the tactical advantage of using boltguns rather than the bolt pistol + chainsword and to decide whether I should do it with any DC in my lists.

 

 

Expand the bolt pistol vs bolter thought a little bit more. Consider librarians and their tactical advantages when used with units like DC with bolters.

You want a librarian in almost any list these days and he is a great swiss knife IC even with DC.

A librarian with the divination primaris power prescience plays very well to DC with boltguns giving them re-rolls to hit in shooting and in CC (not wounding) thats a very strong DC unit. You could seriously consider taking DC with boltguns, especially if your list includes a librarian. Re-rolls to hit in two phases is pretty cool, that powerfist DC guy shoots twice then smacks Sangiunius's enemies four times with a fist at WS5 re-rolling to hit at S9, he is wounding on 2's anyway.

There are some great buffs in there.

Here are 4 very useful powers all help a DC unit with boltguns,

Foreboding (confers counter attack on DC and full BS on overwatch, does that mean DC get furious charge I wonder?) nids/orcs/eldar will hate this.

Forewarning (4++ invun on DC? awesomesauce!)

Perfect timing (ignores cover) and

Missfortune (forces successfull saves to be re-rolled).

The boltgun can give you a lot of flexibility when matched with IC's other than chaplains. :(

 

Bolter = 30 inch shooting threat, DC are relentless remember, thats a lot of re-rolled shooting with divination as you close, all the time getting FNP.

Figure the stats on say 12 DC and 2 power fists thats 290 points for 12 x 24 point models that have a 5+ FNP. They shoot and move most likely with re-rolls for shooting and combat from divination. If the power fists dont get picked off they will flatten MEQ in CC. Anyone wanting to torrent them down is not shooting at anything else either.

 

That was my theory too, there's loads of synergy with DC & Libby with Divination plus it doesn't make them 'just' about the charge. Not to mention the Librarian gets a tough as nails bodyguard! This load out can really support your midfield units like Tacs. I think if you do this it's 2 x PF in the DC (hidden) & an axe on the Librarian. I currently use 10 DC etc in a SR but I magnetised their arms exactly for this, might throw 5 x TH/SS Terminators & Corbulo in the Raven & use a Rhino for 9 x DC with 2 x PF lef by an Epistolary, might even dabble in Biomancy.

 

- Dallas

[DominicJ]

The reality is both are awesome, and differences are cosmetic at best.

 

I use bolters because they come on by drop pod, and so get two rounds rapid fire before assaulting.

 

I also like the fluff of tactical marines going loopy too.

 

Yes, its probably a bad idea to shoot the guard squad that's far away before assaulting, but you don't *have to* shoot.