Gentlemanloser Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 I've long been a supporter of the effeciency of Paladin over GKT (and a detractor for GKT on the whole!), but I think I'm coming around to using GKT over my Paladin. Troop status is more important in 6th than it was in 5th, and even using only 5 Paladin, I keep coming back to including Draigo to make them Troops. Draigo, 5 Paladin and 2 MC Psycannons comes to 600 points exactly. This gives 14 wounds for 43 points per wound. Not too bad. But, I could get the same sort of effiency (losing TGS though) by swapping back down to GKT and using an OM Inquisitor Instead. Fully loaded, an OM Inquisitor, TDA, Psycannon, 3 x Servo Skulls, PML1 (Divination), 5 GKT, 1 Psycannon comes to 344 points. This gives 8 wounds, at 43 points per wound. There are some trade offs. I lose Fearless and TGS, but gain Stubborn, 3 Servo Skulls and all my attacks get rerolls. Also, I only have 3 wounds that can be IDed away, and not 5, and have the same amount of Psycannons in each setup. But more importantly, I save 256 points. Unlocking a Henchman unit is also an added bonus. Hell, dropping Draigo, and leaving the Pallies as Elite is only a saving of 19 points, and only gains me two wounds. I'm starting to like this set up so much, I'm considering shelving my Pallies and runnng GKT instead. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258946-gkt-instead-of-paladin/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Even if only for variety, you should try it out for a little while. Theory will only carry an army so far. You might like on it on paper but hate it/love it on the table. Time to find out. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258946-gkt-instead-of-paladin/#findComment-3148636 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeratul29 Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Regular terminators are still realy durable, but you might not like the lack of psycannons that terms can offer, but you should definitely try them, I support TDA in general Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258946-gkt-instead-of-paladin/#findComment-3148762 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted August 14, 2012 Author Share Posted August 14, 2012 That's what I was pleasently surprised about. I get to keep the two Pyscannons either way. But I might run Draigo (and therefore Pallies) anyway. I've got a silly notion to run him with a Squad of Daemonhosts, just for the lulz. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258946-gkt-instead-of-paladin/#findComment-3148804 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeratul29 Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 lol, I can see it now, Draigo taking his pet demons out for a walk. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258946-gkt-instead-of-paladin/#findComment-3148898 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DutchSage Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Don't underestimate the loss of Fearless. Since as a rule these squads remain small they can easily loose a single model and run away. ... Especially if you're as trained as me at failing leadership 10 morale checks B) Luckily my troops are trained at running away fast so that I only have to do it once as long as I am within 12" of the board edge (got to love losing 2 terminators and then rolling double 6 for morale, followed by double 6 for my fall back move, with the board edge being 11" from the closest model /cry, bye bye grandmaster and 4 terminators = 350+ points running away). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258946-gkt-instead-of-paladin/#findComment-3148910 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeratul29 Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 ouch... that must have been hard to stomach... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258946-gkt-instead-of-paladin/#findComment-3149191 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 If you take GKT then you can work Thawn into the list... He's always a lot of fun. :) G :rolleyes: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258946-gkt-instead-of-paladin/#findComment-3150060 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 Thawn is a waste of points unfortunately. If he were cheaper, he'd find his way into more lists. Terminator blob and Paladins do different things. Paladins are the scalpel; they're extremely compact (they can fit in a Raven easily, unlike blob), they can Deepstrike and hide more easily (smaller footprint). They also cost less points (~160pts or so, depending on upgrades), which is always great for Knight lists. Terminator blob are the Deathstar other Deathstars die horribly to. Nob Bikers evapourate on the halberdiers, Monstrous Creatures get hammered to death if halberds fail, Stormhammers take a tonne of wounds from them still (so potentially you lose dudes to failed 2+ armour, not storm shield, and don't forget Knights will shoot you on the way in), although they hit fairly hard back. They are a bit unwieldly though, and fielding more than one is a huge investment (not to mention a pain to position). Their main advantage over Paladins is a lot more attacks, and they tank S8+ hits more easily (as they are 10 distinct models, rather than 5 two-wound ones). You generally want one or the other. Paladins work great without support and harassing the enemy backfield; there is very little short of dedicated combat units that can tangle with them. Terminator blob advances on foot and makes taking the mid-field a nightmare for many armies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258946-gkt-instead-of-paladin/#findComment-3150952 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted August 17, 2012 Author Share Posted August 17, 2012 RD, I'm not thinking of going the full 10 GKT deathstar blob. But rather using 5 GKT + Inquisitor to replace the scaple of 5 Paladin. The Trade off is; Lose 2W Holocaust 4+ LO,S on whole Squad HQ Slot Troop Slot Edit: 6 SB Precision Shots Edit: 4 Psycannon Precision Shots Edit: 8 CC Precision Strikes Edit: 3 'Challengers' Edit: WS5 Gain 10 points Stubborn 2+ LO,S on Inqusitor 4+ LO,S on Justicar 2 SB shots 3 S6 NDH attack Elite slot Scoring I think that's everything! :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258946-gkt-instead-of-paladin/#findComment-3151031 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedemptionNL Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 Add the loss of Precision Shots, Precision Strikes and more Challenge candidates. Edit: Oh, and WS5. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258946-gkt-instead-of-paladin/#findComment-3151035 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted August 17, 2012 Author Share Posted August 17, 2012 Doh! Those too! ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258946-gkt-instead-of-paladin/#findComment-3151070 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 Vindication! I've been a champion of the humble GKT since the dex came out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258946-gkt-instead-of-paladin/#findComment-3151147 Share on other sites More sharing options...
worloch Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 It is an interesting comparison but I feel the topic is a bit misleading - you aren't really comparing GKTs to Paladins; you're comparing GKTs+Inq to Paladins+Draigo. To my mind, while comparing GKTs Vs Paladins is simpler, comparing GKTs+Inq Vs Paladins+Draigo is more comprehensive, which naturally makes it more complex. Point for point, I believe Paladins are more efficient than GKTs, which is only proper given their Elite slot status. Point for Point you get more wounds, and you get all the perks as well - Ws 5, Holocaust (who screwed up GKTs psychic powers anyways? Everyone else follows a pattern of Hammerhand + another one), squad of characters, etc. Draigo Vs OM Inq is harder, because they really aren't in the same league. Draigo is a named special character with special rules all his own. The OM Inq in TDA is very point efficient, but not all that robust. In your Pro/Con lists above you forgot to include losing TGS from Draigo, as well as his psychic powers, and his special weapon (from what it's worth). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258946-gkt-instead-of-paladin/#findComment-3151319 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted August 17, 2012 Author Share Posted August 17, 2012 Originally I was, but the later comparisons were GKT+Inq to Paladin. I still feel that if you're only going to take 10 GKT, then 5 Paladin are more efficient. The comparison I then feel is that if you're taking 5 Paladin, is 5 GKT+OM Inq the better option. I suppose this could also be a case of questioning is 5 GKT+OM Inq better than 10 GKT as well. In your Pro/Con lists above you forgot to include losing TGS from Draigo, as well as his psychic powers, and his special weapon (from what it's worth). That post didn't include Draigo at all. If that was the case, the GKT/INQ combination would have an additional 275 points up as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258946-gkt-instead-of-paladin/#findComment-3151357 Share on other sites More sharing options...
worloch Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 In your Pro/Con lists above you forgot to include losing TGS from Draigo, as well as his psychic powers, and his special weapon (from what it's worth). That post didn't include Draigo at all. If that was the case, the GKT/INQ combination would have an additional 275 points up as well. Sorry, I was thrown off by this bit from your Original Post: Troop status is more important in 6th than it was in 5th, and even using only 5 Paladin, I keep coming back to including Draigo to make them Troops. Draigo, 5 Paladin and 2 MC Psycannons comes to 600 points exactly. This gives 14 wounds for 43 points per wound. Not too bad. But, I could get the same sort of effiency (losing TGS though) by swapping back down to GKT and using an OM Inquisitor Instead. Should have read closer and looked at the point values you were mentioning, but I'm at work and don't have my books with me anyhow. I think it is a hard comparison to make in a vacuum, as so often is the case. What else would you be doing with those saved points? What other HQ's would you be considering? Do you need that Elites slot or HQ slot for something else? I think OM Inq+GKTs can be good in some scenarios, and more points efficient within those boundaries. I think Paladins are going to be better overall, but will cost more for it. Using Grand Strategy or Draigo to make the Paladins scoring units will definitely color your list design goals, and change the nature of the above comparison. Another idea to throw in to the mix is taking a cheap OX Inq to caddy some grenades for you instead, and relying on the Justicar and Lo,S! rolls to keep him safe. You lose the NDH and Psycannon shots, but gain some points backs and get the Rad and Psychotroke grenades, in addition to another Force weapon (modeled as an ax maybe?) and Prescience. Or you could just take the best of both worlds by taking the OM Inq and adding him to Paladins - it's the most expensive option, but you get all the goodies (except native scoring). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258946-gkt-instead-of-paladin/#findComment-3151374 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted August 17, 2012 Author Share Posted August 17, 2012 Indeed! ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258946-gkt-instead-of-paladin/#findComment-3151387 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mycnh Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Here's another variable to throw into the mix: I got beat up by an IG army recently. My GKT and Gr. Master ended up across from a super blob squad (4 troop squads= 4 plasma guns and 4 AC teams. I could only drop a few with my bolters/psycannons before they got flashlights and torrented to death. Seems to me with Paladins, not only could you drop Holocaust on 'em, (including some from Solodins) but you could then precision shot away the plasma gunners, Commisars, and double out the heavy weapon teams w/ any Psycannon 6's you get. Made me reconsider the troops vs. Pally's. Your results may vary. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258946-gkt-instead-of-paladin/#findComment-3152566 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 (who screwed up GKTs psychic powers anyways? Everyone else follows a pattern of Hammerhand + another one) Remember, our Terminators are the fresh-faced newbies ;) . Plus, they get the Brotherhood Banner, unlike all the PA variant units (who have to make do with their special ability power). You shouldn't really get too wrapped up in how much units costs versus eachother; all Knight units are pricey. The key difference is role; GKT's can fit into a lot of lists Paladins can't (due to default Troops status and therefore default scoring), they are much better at taking S8+ hits (as they are 10 dudes, not 5, and about a third cheaper per dude to boot), and they have more board presence (10 TDA bases covers a lot of ground, and Bro Banner makes up for 'Disordered Charge' when you multi-assault). Paladins are a unit of heroes who will curb-stomp most normal units, and can give dedicated combat units a hard time too (even Stormhammers will lose a couple of dudes to massed wounds). Decide on a role for the unit, then make a decision between the two. Same thing comes into play when considering Purifiers over Strikes, or Interceptor squads over Dreadknights. They perform somewhat the same, but are better suited to specific roles if you can manage it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258946-gkt-instead-of-paladin/#findComment-3152584 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DinoDoc Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 This seems like a good place to ask for advice on this. Here's a list I've been toying with from 5th ed. Any advice on upgrading would be appreciated: Unlimited Pts - Grey Knights Roster - HQ: Ordo Malleus Inquisitor in Terminator Armour (1#, 119 pts) 1 Ordo Malleus Inquisitor in Terminator Armour, 119 pts (Nemesis Daemonhammer; Servo-skulls x3; Psycannon; Psyker (Mastery 1); 6E Rulebook Psychic Powers (I haven't decided which school); Upgrade to Psyker) Troops: Grey Knight Terminator Squad (10#, 470 pts) 1 Grey Knight Terminator Squad, 470 pts 1 Terminator Justicar (Nemesis Warding Stave) 7 Terminators (Nemesis Force Halberd x7) 2 Terminators (Psycannon x2; Nemesis Daemonhammer x2) Troops: Grey Knight Terminator Squad (10#, 470 pts) 1 Grey Knight Terminator Squad, 470 pts 1 Terminator Justicar (Nemesis Warding Stave) 7 Terminators (Nemesis Force Halberd x7) 2 Terminators (Psycannon x2; Nemesis Daemonhammer x2) Troops: Grey Knight Terminator Squad (10#, 470 pts) 1 Grey Knight Terminator Squad, 470 pts 1 Terminator Justicar (Nemesis Warding Stave) 7 Terminators (Nemesis Force Halberd x7) 2 Terminators (Psycannon x2; Nemesis Daemonhammer x2) Troops: Grey Knight Terminator Squad (10#, 470 pts) 1 Grey Knight Terminator Squad, 470 pts 1 Terminator Justicar (Nemesis Warding Stave) 7 Terminators (Nemesis Force Halberd x7) 2 Terminators (Psycannon x2; Nemesis Daemonhammer x2) Total Roster Cost: 1999 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258946-gkt-instead-of-paladin/#findComment-3152818 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Yeah, Knightwing is pretty fun. Its especially good to move the Inquisitors to the surviving squads once their original unit dies, as they can keep buffing and getting 'Look Out Sir!' rolls. edit: Always always always take Divination on your TDA Inquisitors, and take the Primaris power, 'Prescience'. Re-rolls on TDA blobs are just brutal, you hit harder than Paladins. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258946-gkt-instead-of-paladin/#findComment-3152827 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted August 19, 2012 Author Share Posted August 19, 2012 I'd drop the Staves for another OM Inq in TDA/Psycannon. And probably drop a coupel of NDH for PML1 on him as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258946-gkt-instead-of-paladin/#findComment-3152932 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Nemesis hammers are free on Terminators dude :P at best he can drop the staves and go with a non-psyker Termie Inquisitor (still get an extra hammer and psycannon out of that, and Stubborn Ld10 for the squad, not bad). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258946-gkt-instead-of-paladin/#findComment-3153294 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted August 20, 2012 Author Share Posted August 20, 2012 Doh! Even dropping the 3 Skulls would leave you 1 point short, woudln't it? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258946-gkt-instead-of-paladin/#findComment-3153343 Share on other sites More sharing options...
worloch Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Played a game last week with Paladins, and it was quite evident that Dragio is a force multiplier for Paladins in more ways than just making them Troops. In terms of sheer survivability - Toughness, Armor Save, Invulnerable Save, and Wounds - Paladins come out on top over GKT for the simple fact that they have a 55/2 Points to Wound ratio, while GKT have a 40/1 ratio. Everything else is the same. Except if you're being targeted by St 8 or higher weaponry. Then the extra wound on the Paladins doesn't matter, and you're losing higher point cost models at the same rate as the lower point cost models. Having Draigo to help soak those wounds with his 3++ and Eternal Warrior is a huge boon to the Paladins. So, I think that in the comparison, you have to account for if Draigo is coming along with the Paladins or not. If he is not, then the GKT gain a bit in my mind. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258946-gkt-instead-of-paladin/#findComment-3155391 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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