Blood Angel Librarian BRB Power Selection

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Ok Gentlemen, I run a Librarian leading my BA--- but I do not use the Epistolary upgrade. Even the few times I've used it, I didn't end up really 'needing' it very much. Of course, I've been rolling both powers on Divination, and every single time I'll swap for Prescience and the other power ends up being not very useful. For baseline reference, most of my Army Lists use 20 JP-RAS and 4x MM AttBikes the core with either JP-DC, Pod-DC, or THSS Terms as favored 'rocks'.

So basically IMO there's a 66% chance on the Divination table that your 50pts will be 'wasted' on a power not worth 50pts. ALSO, if you do not take Epistolary, there are very very few powers you'd ever consider casting instead of Prescience, or have a usage under special circumstances (ie a utility skill such as Gate of Infinity for last-turn objective grabbing, etc). For this consideration, both Forewarning and Misfortune are 'as good as or better' than Prescience.

The more I think about this, the more disorganized my thoughts became so I figured I'd make a chart (I like charts.... lol) to show a completely generalized table of "BRB Powers Usefulness for a Melee-Unit Support Libby"

There is a metric TON of opinion tied to this table-- but when you are rolling randomly on the table, there's no way to say "well in this ONE situation versus this ONE certain unit from ONE specific codex, this X power is actually awesome." So generalizations will have to do.

Also note, that I went ultra-efficiency mindset drawing up the table. Some powers are 'nice to have' but still got a 'NO' for costing 50pts. One baseline I kept in the back of my mind was "would I rather have this power, or another MM Attackbike in my list?"

CLICK TO VIEW FULL-SIZED, EASIER TO READ:

So the first and second columns help me in deciding on which table to roll my 2nd power when I have a NON-Epistolary. Note that with a non-Epistolary, I'd be casting Prescience probably every turn anyhow-- it simply highlights that when there would be absolutely no usage for Prescience, that that given power would give me an 'out' to still use my warp charge (measure of effectiveness doesn't matter, since any effect is infinitely more than no effect [not casting]). Final qualifying note, some of these powers got a NO since there would never be a time where you'd cast that power and not Prescience (when not needed = nullset).

The 2nd column *roughly* gauges the strength of each power. Prescience being the gold-standard, it analyzes the fact that sometimes other powers might bring something else useful to your forces.

The 3rd column helps me decide whether to buy the Epistolary power, and if I do, what table to roll on. I'd want to roll on the table primarily with the most powers 'worth' 50pts (comes out roughly equal honestly), followed by which table has the best of columns 1 and 2. Note that Epistolary still always takes Prescience vis-a-vis Divination, but getting the most usage out of that 2nd dice means taking another 'sure thing'. Interestingly then, I feel Telepathy comes out on top when taking an Epistolary. Roll once on Divination, and once on Telepathy because the Primaris is something you can always cast alongside Prescience.

Gauging the strengths of the Primaris Powers is something the table really doesn't show well unless you look for it, but goes far towards justifying a roll on that discipline table.

What did I miss? I understand potential combos that an Epistolary could unlock, but since you can't ever rely on gaining those combos you have to look at each power separately and dispassionately instead.

But is there a column that could be added to the table which would greatly enrich 'understanding' each discipline?

EDIT: Updated table.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Not to be the first to reply to myself, but I just noticed USR: Strikedown does not affect MCs, and ICs can Look Out Sir! the beam hits.

 

So ASSAIL would have been good... but now it's worthless. Downgrade that table accordingly.... dang shame, since OBJURATION MECHANICUM is simply amazing versus Ork-shooting (ie Lootas), Tesla-units, Canotek Wraiths, Genestealers, Scout Snipers, Ratlings, Rangers/Pathfinders, Harlequins, Daemonettes, Razorwings, Wulfen, Assault Cannons, Killa Kan squads, Land Speeder squads, Sentinel squads, Warwalker squads....... and anything that might shoot at your flyers.

 

Such a great power... hidden inside such a terrible discipline. With ASSAIL being bad now, Telekinesis only has 2/7 good powers, and is relegated to 'unuseable' for Epistolaries.

 

However, if using a non-Epistolary, perhaps 'throwing away' your 2nd dice on this table if facing Necrons or mass-Rending might be worth it anyhow.... since again, you'll just be casting Prescience every turn anyway (and 2/6 chance to get a good power might be worth trying for).

[John_f]

I've been thingking along the same lines but not being equally systematic =) The conclusion I have reach is that I might give the codex powers a second chance. If you use the codex powers you KNOW for sure witch powers you are going to get. And with Unleashed Rage being precidence "light" you could choose a second power that is really usefull for a CC oriented libby (like sword or shield). Also Shield give a 6" bubble but forewarning only targets a single unit.

 

On another note, can you cast Unleached Rage in your turn and then Shiled in your opponents turn without buying the epi. upgrade?

[Xenith]

"Ok Gentlemen, I run a Librarian leading my BA--- but I do not use the Epistolary upgrade."

 

"your 50pts will be 'wasted' on a power not worth 50pts."

 

"The 3rd column helps me decide whether to buy the Epistolary power, and if I do, what table to roll on."

Erm. You seem to be under the impression that the Epistolary gets an extra power?

 

He only gets two. The Epistolary upgrade just makes the librarian Mastery:2, meaning he gets more warp charge per turn.

[Marik]

"Ok Gentlemen, I run a Librarian leading my BA--- but I do not use the Epistolary upgrade."

 

"your 50pts will be 'wasted' on a power not worth 50pts."

 

"The 3rd column helps me decide whether to buy the Epistolary power, and if I do, what table to roll on."

Erm. You seem to be under the impression that the Epistolary gets an extra power?

 

He only gets two. The Epistolary upgrade just makes the librarian Mastery:2, meaning he gets more warp charge per turn.

 

 

I took his statement to mean that the third column was those powers that are worth being able to use virtually every turn in addition to presidence since both powers don't have to be from the same table.

[Drunken Angel]

Librarians are 100 pts each at 150 an epistolary is nice but why not just take 2 x 100 pt librarians and be done with it ? Thats 200 points for 2 HQ's that will more than likely have exactly what you want or close enough to it and generate force multipliers across the table. I am experimenting with 2 JP libbys. One or both roll divination depending on what you want.

[CrimsonMajick]

"Ok Gentlemen, I run a Librarian leading my BA--- but I do not use the Epistolary upgrade."

 

"your 50pts will be 'wasted' on a power not worth 50pts."

 

"The 3rd column helps me decide whether to buy the Epistolary power, and if I do, what table to roll on."

Erm. You seem to be under the impression that the Epistolary gets an extra power?

 

He only gets two. The Epistolary upgrade just makes the librarian Mastery:2, meaning he gets more warp charge per turn.

 

Good point. You still get to roll for two powers whether you get the Epistolary upgrade or not.

 

I usually only run Mephiston and after a very few games trying out these powers I went right back to the ones from the codex.

 

I have been toying with adding a Librarian, no upgrade, and going straight for Prescience. I completely agree that having to roll for the powers is balls. Too much trash or powers with minimal use.

[IK Viper]

IMHO the BRB powers are the way to go against most things since Precience is just so dang good, on the off chance to do get a 4++ or the ability to nerf and enemy squad it just makes the situation that much better, and you effectively have 2 chances to roll that if you roll double Divination I like those odds. also I would only go Epistilary with a Codex powered Libby since you know what your getting for sure, and in the days before the BRB it was pretty standard practice to NEVER take a blood angel epistilary libby since you were going to take shield and something elso to use in your turn . . . no upgrade needed.

[John_f]

IMHO the BRB powers are the way to go against most things since Precience is just so dang good, on the off chance to do get a 4++ or the ability to nerf and enemy squad it just makes the situation that much better, and you effectively have 2 chances to roll that if you roll double Divination I like those odds. also I would only go Epistilary with a Codex powered Libby since you know what your getting for sure, and in the days before the BRB it was pretty standard practice to NEVER take a blood angel epistilary libby since you were going to take shield and something elso to use in your turn . . . no upgrade needed.

 

Right, so you could save 50p and STILL get to use two power (shield and whatever) if you pick from the codex. But then you would have to make your peace with the fact that you don't get to use precidence. So I'm torn.

[Xenith]

In all, if you are going codex powers, the Epistolary upgrade is not really worth it, as you can take rage and shield, and be able to cast a spell in both your and your opponents turns.

 

Taking a Libby exclusively for prescience is a bit of a crutch, as he just casts that spell. Very few of the RB powers are ones that you can cast in your opponent's turn, IIRC, meaning you only get 1spell/game turn. You pay 100pts to get prescienece going every turn.

 

The 50pt upgrade to Epistolary gets the extra warp charge, which allows you to cast 2 spells in your own turn, meaning you prescience your dudes, then the librarian can also maledict the opponent, or something else useful like Objuration Mechanicum when your storm ravens come on the board.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

In all, if you are going codex powers, the Epistolary upgrade is not really worth it, as you can take rage and shield, and be able to cast a spell in both your and your opponents turns.

 

Taking a Libby exclusively for prescience is a bit of a crutch, as he just casts that spell. Very few of the RB powers are ones that you can cast in your opponent's turn, IIRC, meaning you only get 1spell/game turn. You pay 100pts to get prescienece going every turn.

 

The 50pt upgrade to Epistolary gets the extra warp charge, which allows you to cast 2 spells in your own turn, meaning you prescience your dudes, then the librarian can also maledict the opponent, or something else useful like Objuration Mechanicum when your storm ravens come on the board.

 

Yes, but have you used Prescience yet? Um, it is amazing. Also, now that 'terrain-setup' is a set piece phase and part of the game, I have never once wish I had taken Sanguinary Shield since I've always been able to place strategic terrain to cover my approach, OR I've used my Attbikes 'blood rodeo' style (tourny situations where you won't get terrain setup).

 

Ok so you take codex powers and then get an effect in your turn and your opponents turn. Well Prescience lasts your turn and your opponents turn too. Trust me, when you get 'stuck-in' against a unit with Fearless/Stubborn/ATSKNF you are really really going to want those rerolls.

 

Prescience greatly helps your MM Attbikes as well on your approach turn 1-2. If any unit ever needed TL shooting, its those bad boys.

 

Also, you always get your codex powers. You don't have decide until deployment whether you want to swap for BRB powers.

 

And you aren't paying 100pts for Prescience. You are paying 100pts for Prescience, a LD10 IC, WS5 ForceAxe (only attacks squads, never fight challenges) and a Psychic Hood bubble.

 

@Marik, you are completely correct that is exactly what I meant: I understand that normal Libby's get two BRB powers, and Epistos get two BRB powers.

 

My bottom line for the thread was "For non-Epistos, if I cast Prescience 95% of the time, how is the best way to get a power that is still useful to use the other 5% of the time." And for Epistos, "what is the best way to get two good powers I would want to cast concurrently."

[Dallas Drake]

In all, if you are going codex powers, the Epistolary upgrade is not really worth it, as you can take rage and shield, and be able to cast a spell in both your and your opponents turns.

 

Taking a Libby exclusively for prescience is a bit of a crutch, as he just casts that spell. Very few of the RB powers are ones that you can cast in your opponent's turn, IIRC, meaning you only get 1spell/game turn. You pay 100pts to get prescienece going every turn.

 

The 50pt upgrade to Epistolary gets the extra warp charge, which allows you to cast 2 spells in your own turn, meaning you prescience your dudes, then the librarian can also maledict the opponent, or something else useful like Objuration Mechanicum when your storm ravens come on the board.

 

Yes, but have you used Prescience yet? Um, it is amazing. Also, now that 'terrain-setup' is a set piece phase and part of the game, I have never once wish I had taken Sanguinary Shield since I've always been able to place strategic terrain to cover my approach, OR I've used my Attbikes 'blood rodeo' style (tourny situations where you won't get terrain setup).

 

Ok so you take codex powers and then get an effect in your turn and your opponents turn. Well Prescience lasts your turn and your opponents turn too. Trust me, when you get 'stuck-in' against a unit with Fearless/Stubborn/ATSKNF you are really really going to want those rerolls.

 

Prescience greatly helps your MM Attbikes as well on your approach turn 1-2. If any unit ever needed TL shooting, its those bad boys.

 

Also, you always get your codex powers. You don't have decide until deployment whether you want to swap for BRB powers.

 

And you aren't paying 100pts for Prescience. You are paying 100pts for Prescience, a LD10 IC, WS5 ForceAxe (only attacks squads, never fight challenges) and a Psychic Hood bubble.

 

@Marik, you are completely correct that is exactly what I meant: I understand that normal Libby's get two BRB powers, and Epistos get two BRB powers.

 

My bottom line for the thread was "For non-Epistos, if I cast Prescience 95% of the time, how is the best way to get a power that is still useful to use the other 5% of the time." And for Epistos, "what is the best way to get two good powers I would want to cast concurrently."

 

I'm sold. Just built up a second Librarian & undercoated him :(

 

Both are going into melee (one leading 9 x DC & one leading Corbulo & 5 x TH/SS Terminators) so I'll have to decide if it's 2 rolls on Div or 1 roll on Div (i.e. Prescience) & a roll on Bio/Tele.

 

- Dallas

[Drunken Angel]

Its hard to beat re-rolls to hit on a DC dread with blood talons or blood fists tumbling out of a raven along with the DC. Prescience from a DC attached libby can be cast to boost the dread

 

Edited for accuracy thanks Brynjolf Irontooth

[Brynjolf Irontooth]

Its hard to beat re-rolls to hit on a DC dread with blood talons or blood fists tumbling out of a raven along with the DC. Prescience from a DC attached libby has a bubble that boosts the dread too and if your lucky the multi melta attack bike escort.

 

Presience only targets a single unit. So no bubble (though it has a range, so unlike rage you can cast it on another unit, and it also allows rerolls on shooting).

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Librarians are 100 pts each at 150 an epistolary is nice but why not just take 2 x 100 pt librarians and be done with it ? Thats 200 points for 2 HQ's that will more than likely have exactly what you want or close enough to it and generate force multipliers across the table. I am experimenting with 2 JP libbys. One or both roll divination depending on what you want.

 

I think this idea is spot-on. In small games 1000-1500, I'd go for one standard lib, and for heavy lists (1750+) gives good room for taking two standard libs.

 

I'm really beginning to feel the idea that 1x power from Divination and 1x power from Telepathy is generally the best way to go. Since Invisibility/Hallucinate are Warp Charge 2, that means the table is only 25% chance per-power if Mastery1 psyker (also Tele has a useable Primaris, which is really the kicker behind taking Telepathy)

 

So again, a standard Lib will just cast Prescience every turn--- but roll Puppet Master and you can use the opponent's tanks or shooty-MCs against him (directional shooting-wounds might bag you a Sgt or a Heavy Weapon or the rear armor on an opposing tank, if your opponent got careless). Roll Terrify and now you will wipe the floor by Sweeping Advances against Nids and Orks (plus good chance to immediately break any Ld8 or lower units- may have good use versus IG/Tau even). Dominate and Mental Fortitude probably just swap for Psyhic Shriek.

 

So again, while Prescience will be the default use-power, if the Libby finds himself standing alone or in severely attritioned units (where rerolls are less bonus) then he can still have a useful backup power. Puppet Master being the best one but with Psychic Shriek being useful too.

 

50% to roll a useful backup power (with 100% chance due to usable Primaris) is something the other disciplines can't match. So if you like a 'sure thing' and want consistent playtesting performance, Pick Divination and Telepathy. Better powers potentially exist, but this combo is consistent and reliable.

[Dogstar34]

I hate to derail the conversation, but lets have a reality check here. Prescience is good and all, but are you all really spending 100 points just to get rerolls to hit? This doesn't seem like an efficient way to spend your points:

 

1) We already hit on 3+. Rerolling makes it even more assured, but you are not shoring up a weakness, you are bolstering a strength. Do we really need it that bad?

 

2) A basic librarian dies to a single krak missile/powerfist or the equivalent, which are found in abundance. No invulnerable save, and no mobility without an upgrade which makes him more of a point sink.

 

3) A librarian is little better than a basic marine in melee, and certainly not better than the 5 marines his points would buy.

 

4) The upgrade to Epistolary or the Terminator armor + Storm Shield upgrade pushes his cost up even more - if you could take a basic librarian, give him Terminator armor and the epistolary upgrade, would you then pay 75 points to give him an upgrade to Mastery level 3, S and T6, WS and I7, and 5 attacks? Cause you just bought Mephiston, who does a librarians job way way better than a basic librarian and can actually make a difference in combat.

 

I'm not suggesting you should only ever buy Mephiston, but I have to shake my head when I see people suggesting 2 basic librarians, especially 2 JP librarians...you just paid for Mephiston, and those 2 librarians won't come anywhere close to doing what he can. IMO, one of the best uses for librarians is to shut down opposing death stars and units we cant beat with our traditional strengths - Terminators and Nob bikers, for instance. Powers like Hallucination (and the accompanying Warp level 2, hint hint) are outstanding for this, since rather than trying to break a 2+ save and/or high toughness we can simply circumvent their defenses and force them to rely on a 6+ DTW.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

I hate to derail the conversation, but lets have a reality check here. Prescience is good and all, but are you all really spending 100 points just to get rerolls to hit? This doesn't seem like an efficient way to spend your points:

 

I'm not suggesting you should only ever buy Mephiston, but I have to shake my head when I see people suggesting 2 basic librarians, especially 2 JP librarians...you just paid for Mephiston, and those 2 librarians won't come anywhere close to doing what he can. IMO, one of the best uses for librarians is to shut down opposing death stars and units we cant beat with our traditional strengths - Terminators and Nob bikers, for instance. Powers like Hallucination (and the accompanying Warp level 2, hint hint) are outstanding for this, since rather than trying to break a 2+ save and/or high toughness we can simply circumvent their defenses and force them to rely on a 6+ DTW.

You are not paying 100pts for Prescience. You are paying 125pts for Prescience (easily worth 75pts IMHO), a Jump Pack, a WS5 ForceAxe, a Psychic Hood bubble (5+ DtW), and a Ld10 IC. Also, at 125pts he is the cheapest mandatory HQ--- which is funny because he's one of the best!

 

250pts for Mephiston, or 250pts for the two of those JP Libbys. This is not an apple to apple comparison--- it ALL depends on how your list is constructed. If your list benefits from Force Muliplication, then Prescience is better. If your Army does not have an answer to 3+ Sv Monstrous Creatures or Nob Bikerz or something of that nature, then Mephiston is better.

1) We already hit on 3+. Rerolling makes it even more assured, but you are not shoring up a weakness, you are bolstering a strength. Do we really need it that bad?

Who are you fighting in melee that WS4 Marines are hitting on 3+? :confused: Most of the time my Marines hit on 4+ :( ..... so Prescience grants re-rolls to-hit for both shooting and melee in both your turn and your opponent's following turn. It helps with Overwatch after winning an assault, it helps with multi-turn melees, it helps with hitting Flyers, it helps with sticking Grenades onto tanks, it helps melta-shots hit home, it helps your expensive Power Fists hit better..... it literally makes anything you try to do work better. Dude I'm not sure why you don't understand that Prescience is tied for 4th most flexible and powerful Force Multiplier that exists in the Game (behind Enfeeble, Doom, Invisibility and tied with Misfortune).

2) A basic librarian dies to a single krak missile/powerfist or the equivalent, which are found in abundance. No invulnerable save, and no mobility without an upgrade which makes him more of a point sink.

Which is why, as a Support IC, you hide him at the back, Look Out Sir!, and refuse all challenges. Seriously his survivability does nothing to prevent him from casting which is why you take him in the first place. Psyhood and Ld10 works just fine from the back too.

3) A librarian is little better than a basic marine in melee, and certainly not better than the 5 marines his points would buy.

Straight-out incorrect. 10 Marines re-rolling hits for 2 melee phases will outkill 15 Marines with no rerolls. That's a fact.

 

10 Assault Marines and Libby with Prescience have 31 normal Attacks/ 4 ForceAxe Attacks on the charge, 21 Attacks/3 ForceAxe Attacks (still prescience) in next phase

15 Assault Marines have 47 attacks on charge, 32 next phase.

 

10 RAS and Libby kill a total of 11.38 Enemy MEQ

15 RAS kill a total of 6.58 Enemy MEQ

4) The upgrade to Epistolary or the Terminator armor + Storm Shield upgrade pushes his cost up even more - if you could take a basic librarian, give him Terminator armor and the epistolary upgrade, would you then pay 75 points to give him an upgrade to Mastery level 3, S and T6, WS and I7, and 5 attacks? Cause you just bought Mephiston, who does a librarians job way way better than a basic librarian and can actually make a difference in combat.

145pts for a Terminator Libby with SS is an amazing bargain... again not sure what you mean by too expensive. However I agree with you that the Epistolary is not very good. His only problem is mobility, or else he'd be an auto-include to every list. 2+/3++ is as good as it gets, especially in 6th Edition.

 

You have quite some interesting ideas mate.... they kindof go against what the Tournament Winners here on the forums have reported as being solid choices. Not to troll, please know that! I don't want to come across as snide here.

[Dogstar34]

No offense taken, differences of opinion are okay!

 

I will agree 100% that Prescience is a great force multiplier and I know my first roll in Divination is safe because I can get Prescience. I just don't like that I need a 100 point platform to stick it on - 100 points is too much for what you get and the upgrades that shore up those weaknesses are half his cost again. I feel the Terminator armor + storm shield is a great upgrade, but when Im looking at 145 points, combined with a truly mediocre statline esp for a marine character I just cant help thinking its only 100 more points for the Lord of Death. I guess my problem is with the Librarian's cost than with Prescience.

 

Who are you fighting in melee that WS4 Marines are hitting on 3+?

I dont fight anyone in melee, if I can help it. :( I don't know what your tournament winners are saying, but MSU short range shooting is the order of the day for me.

 

I run a mechanized list, and I use Mephiston as my counter charge. Everyone knows what he can do so I wont go into that here, but every time I think it would be nice to have 2 librarians jumping around, casting Fear the Darkness and Shield of Sanguinius I just dont think they could equal what one Meph can in terms of combat support and Warp charge - being able to use Hallucination and/or Invis is spectacular for shutting down a deathstar, and you can't get that from a standard Librarian. What I said about a Librarian not being better than his equivalent points is absolutely correct, and its the synergy of the Librarian buffing himself and his squad that lets him be of any worth whatsoever - god forbid someone brings an allied Farseer with RoW and you fail to cast, which is not uncommon. The whole WS5, force axe LD10 thing sounds great until you said to hide him in a challenge :D

[CitadelArmyGuy]

No offense taken, differences of opinion are okay!

 

I don't know what your tournament winners are saying, but MSU short range shooting is the order of the day for me.

 

Oh. Well that is something entirely different. You must understand that the whole entire discussion about Libby powers changes radically when using an MSU shooty-army. MSU shooty is the exact complete opposite of a list that benefits from force multiplication-- the multiplication is built into the list itself.

 

Force Multipliers like Prescience benefit more when you have large units with large amounts of dice to throw (ie multi-phase melees with lots of attacks)

 

I guess I did a poor job pointing out that key line in my original post: "BRB Powers Usefulness for a Melee-Unit Support Libby."

 

An entire different thread would be required if we start discussing Shooty-support Libbys.

[Morticon]

Great chart, great thread.

 

In my mind it looks as though, if im running a non-meph Epistolary, its more fortuitous to have telepathy as secondary.

[Ushtarador]

I ran two libbis with epistolary in most of my games now, and I have come to similar conclusions as Mort. I tend to make my first roll on divination, if I get Forewarning or Misfortune I keep, else swap that for rerolls. Then either pick rerolls or go to telepathy - against armies with big, expensive deathstars, hallucination is one huge "I win"-button, else I take the basic power, which also is quite good against most things.