New, with questions.

[BlackLorren]

Hey, all.

 

I'm brand-new to this rather interesting world of tabletop gaming. A couple of new friends introduced me to this, and my interest was piqued. Doesn't look like a bad way to spend an evening. Some dice and a six-pack sound like something easier on the wallet(and the body) than some of my existing hobbies.

 

Anyway, I went out, and it turns out there's a Games Workshop local to me, that sells all of this stuff. Never even knew it was there, but Google does, in fact, know everything. Anyway, I grabbed a rulebook, and the Space Marines codex, and a bunch of other stuff. Now, I'm trying to get started.

 

I've given the basic rule book a couple of once-overs. Same with the Codex. I now understand the basics of the game, although I'll have all kinds of questions regarding the finer points later on in life. I picked the Space Marines, simply because they're awesome. Cool to look at, cool to read about, generally badass guys. Sounds like the team I wanna play for. So now, I've actually gotta pick up some models to game with(I bought a handful of models, mostly just to learn how to paint. Side note: some of the painting info in here is great.). But, here's the deal. After buying my codex, I have learned that there are, in fact, other Space Marine armies with chapter-specific rules. I'm sure you already know that, but it was new to me. Anyway, I figure the rules differ based on different styles of playing and all of that. That's where I need some help.

 

Here's what I imagine in my Space Marines army. A small group of warriors, each painted to a high degree of detail, holding a patch of ground, kicking ass and chewing bubble gum. The key note here being small. The three guys that I would be regularly playing with all have a ridiculous amount of models, and can field armies big enough to fight battles in a 10'x20' living room floor. I've actually seen them do it, somewhat. After about hour 3, I was bored, and they were only beginning turn 2 or 3. Doesn't interest me. I'm looking to keep to the 2000pts and under margin, and rather than have a trash can full of half-painted, spray-bombed models, I'd like to keep a small army that I can put on a shelf in my den, painted to the point that I'm not embarrassed when other people see them.

 

Now, herein lies the problem. I am, by nature, an extremely competitive individual. I like to play, and I like to win. I'll accept a hard-fought defeat, but I'm always aiming to come out on the winning end. So, I need some help here from some more experienced gamers(because, as much as I like these guys, they're poor teachers). I need a crash-course in game dynamics at the 1250-2000-point range. What units/weapons are better-served in large scale games, and what shines in smaller settings.

 

The end goal here is to write an army list and build an army according to it. With that in mind, this is kind of what I'm aiming for:

1) An army with a total final value of 2000 points.

2) An army with a competitive edge, balanced to take on whatever is thrown at it(because these guys have too many models for just 1 army).

3) An army that leans more toward a lower model count, and higher points-cost-per-model(just seems like the Space Marines way to go). I'd give an example here of a model count, but I'm not quite sure what it is.

4) An army that sticks within the stories written by Games Workshop("fluff", I believe the term is.). Basically, it seems that when you build a Space Marine army, you build according to a specific Chapter. So I'd like to stay within the bounds of what would be considered the norm for that chapter. As an added problem, I don't know what that chapter is yet. I'm looking at a couple of different Codex chapters, but the Space Wolves also look appealing. Then I see those Dark Angels and the Deathwing, which looks like the epitome of a low-model-count army. Thus far, the only chapter I've seen that really turns me off is the White Scars(those bike models look ridiculous).

 

As far as stuff I'd like to include and stuff I don't, I'm thinking along the lines of an infantry strike force, with little by way of vehicles. I'm sure they have their uses and all, but most of the models aren't that appealing. Whereas I look at Terminators, Vanguard Veterans, Techmarines, and the bulk of the infantry models, and I just think, "wow, gotta get me some of that." So, number 5) would be that I'm looking to stay light on vehicles, or without altogether. Drop pods kind of appeal, though.

 

Now, obviously I've covered too much stuff here to do in a single thread. This is just the overall kind of idea I've got. What I'm looking for to start with:

 

1) Is this a feasible concept? Can a low-model-count army with minimal vehicle support be competitive?

2) Is there anything specific to the 1250-2000-point game size, specific to Space Marines, that I should know? It seems like just about every army list I've looked at on this site shows that below 1000pts, all Space Marine armies start to blend together.

3) Am I best off sticking with the Space Marines codex, or in order to stay more competitive, should I be looking at a different book(Space Wolves, Blood Angels, etc.)?

4) Is it a Warhammer faux pas to create an army and play it under a different set of rules(ie. An army painted to look like Ultramarines, following the Space Wolves set of rules)?

 

I'm sure some of these belong in an FAQ section somewhere. If someone can point me to it, or link it, then that works well too. For the mods/staff, if this is the wrong place for an intro, my apologies. I realize I've written quite a bit, but if you've managed to get through it all and aren't too fed up to reply, thanks a bunch.

 

Black Lorren

[Feste]

Hey dude, welcome to 40k. Hope that you have a good time.

 

1. 
   [1] The

Grey Knights are pretty much exactly this. In fact currently one of their most competitive builds doesn't have much more than 10 or so guys in it. It's called Draigowing, and you should find some examples on these here boards I'd imagine.
[2] Can't help you here, I'm just getting into marines myself. Sorry. The Tactica boards might have some good threads to read.
[3] Again I can't help you too much here, but my understanding is that while the Codex:Space Marines armies are pretty good with some varied builds, they're no longer quite top tier. Space Wolves and Grey Knights are a bit more competitive. That said, C:SM might be a good learning army as it doesn't have some of the weirder play styles.
[4] Depends on who you play with really. It's often called a 'count-as' army, and as long as you're clear on what everything is represented as then you should be fine. Space Wolves are often used as the basis for a count-as army :)

Good luck with your army!

[awfulawful]

[words] Grey Knights [words]

 

 

Bingo. Feste nailed it.

[Elric the Silvercoat]

You really seem to be looking for a Draigowing list. In the army you will be using a unit called Paladins which are upgraded marines. With a higher Weapon Skill, Wound, and Leadership than standard. Its an army in Terminator Armour aswell. They are high in point cost so you will be field a small amount compared to something like Tyrnids or Orks.

 

A good starting build for Draigonwings is:

 

Lord Draigo

 

10 man Paladin squad

 

5 man Paladin squad

 

Two Dreadknights.

 

This should be less than 1700 points if I am not mistaken but others on the Grey Knight board can help with that. Nurglez has a list like this at 1750 with upgrades so you can do alot more with an extra 250 points. But this is all about if you want to play this army.

 

Vanilla Space Marines can do great aswell. The most competitive build for them, in my opinion, is doing a Salamander army using Vulkan as an HQ to upgrade all Melta and Flamer weapons and Thunder Hammers aswell. I am not sure on the build for the army but you can find some examples of the list on here.

[narf]

Space wolves can also do low model, high points cost armies, with slightly more variation and models than Grey knights, simply as one of their characters allows terminators as troops, also each model can be built & painted to be an individual, with its own weapons, one of the ultimate personalised armies

 

Dark Angels have the same sort of thing, though their terminators are slightly more mundane in their weapons choices

 

What play style attracts you most? long range fire power, short range firefights, followed by assaults, or just hand to hand combat?

 

Grey knights are a hammer, and will smash just, but may also fail absolutly

 

Space wolves Terminators and death wing terminators are more like a sword, and have more tactics involved, as well as more models.

 

Any space marine army taken in a balance is like a scapel, and can do pretty much anything it puts its mind too

[Leonaides]

At the 2000pt or less you might want to consider blood angels, either as Dante and his golden friends, all jump troops - mitigates one of the big problems of an all infantry force by retaining manouvrability- or lots of terminators with some priest support... Have you looked at the baal predator or the stormraven? If you're looking for competative, you'll prob want some kind of flyer at the moment...

[The Emperor's Champion]

Any space marine army taken in a balance is like a scapel, and can do pretty much anything it puts its mind too

This is pretty much the key idea.

 

And remember guys, it doesn't have to be just Terminators to get a low model count. You can do Tactical Squads to save points and then spend those points on things like Thunderfire Cannons and Land Raiders.

You can't get a much lower model count than an army with the maximum possible Land Raiders....

That'd be like:

• 175ish pts for an HQ
  
• 5x Terminators +Land Raider
  
• 5x Terminators +Land Raider
  
• 5x Tactical Marines
  
• 5x Tactical Marines
  
• Land Raider
  
• Land Raider
  
• Land Raider
  

=2000pts

 

Not saying I necessarily recommend that army build, but that's only 26 models.

Just sayin' we can think outside of the "only Terminators" box.

[Feste]

Well another way to get a low model count would be a Master of the Forge led Dreadnought list. It'd provide a good excuse for techmarines as well, and could help lower the model count. A few terminators would be a nice honour guard for the forge master, but so would some vanguard coming out of a land raider.

 

This discussion in the Tactica section is currently looking at the Master of the Forge. He's a handful in assault.

[Legatus]

4) Is it a Warhammer faux pas to create an army and play it under a different set of rules(ie. An army painted to look like Ultramarines, following the Space Wolves set of rules)?

It is kind of like playing an elf warrior in Dungeons & Dragosn but using the racial stats of a half orc because you prefer the strength bonus over the usual elven agility.

[pyroknight]

I will try and keep this short.

 

 

Although 2,000 points is the American standard game size; start off with smaller point games until you build up. Most my 2K games take at about 3-4 hours to finish.

 

1) Space marines generally have a lower model count. While you don’t need a lot of vehicles, having a handful of vehicles can do a good job of rounding out your force.

2) Space marine armies do blend together a little at under 1,000 points but the devil is in the details. Even though two armies look the same, they will play differently.

3) Note: in an effort to be short I will speak in general terms.

a. Codex: space marines in my opinion is an easy side to learn and a very difficult side to master. Space marines are easy to learn because they perform well at everything. Space marines are hard to master because they best at nothing. There is no set way to play vanilla space marines; the same army build could have completely different tactics from one battle to the next. Their power is in their adaptability, and if you try to brute force with space marines you will find them lacking.

b. Codex: Grey knights is an elite force of space marines with a very low model count. Greyknights excel at mid-range shooting. They are strong in close-combat but lack serious artillery. Because of their mid-range role, Grey knights are easy to play and also easy to win with. They also get a lot of customization options on their models. This seems like a good choice for you.

c. Codex: Dark Angels can field armies of mostly terminators (heavy armored soldiers). Dark Angels can be fun to play but their codex is very old and due for an update. A new codex is supposed to appear before the end of the year.

d. Codex: Space wolves is similar to vanilla space marines but sacrifices some of its versatility to gain special skills.

e. Codex: Blood angels is very similar to vanilla space marines but sacrifices its versatility for speed and close combat power. Blood angel armies should expect to rely on close combat.

 

4) I would encourage you to try and make your own color scheme. Then when you decide which branch of marines you wish to play, you can make your lore/fluff appropriate.

[BlackLorren]

Wow, that's a lot of responses for less than 24 hours.

 

Thanks to all for contributing information. From the top:

 

Feste: I'll have to check out the Draigowing. Looking at the models, the Grey Knights didn't appeal greatly(a little flashy for my tastes), but you make an excellent case for exactly what I'm trying to accomplish.

Elric: I'll actually pop over and check out the details on a couple Draigowing lists shortly, but thanks for the primer.

Narf: Thanks for offering some alternatives. Space Wolves appeal quite a bit(I like the Viking-type lore), so that warrants further inquiry.

Leonaides: I was afraid the manuveurability issue was going to bite me in the ass. Are you implying that more defensively-minded, static forces tend to suffer from the dynamics of the game, or that they aren't a particular forte for the Space Marines?

The EC: I like the quotation there. And I like that you've really tried to keep things from tightening up around the "just Terminators" mentality. I'll keep an open mind going forward.

Feste again: I'm actually perusing that article right now, looks kind of like my flavour. I'm interested.

Legatus: I thought that might be the case(although I've never played D&D). Duly noted.

Pyroknight: Of course. I'm intending on building up over time, probably by 250-point increments or so between 750 and 2000(and perhaps not even that high). Regarding self-created colour schemes/lore, I'm afraid I'm just not that creative.

 

Anyway, I'm going to be taking a closer look at Space Wolves, Dark Angels Deathwing, Grey Knights Draigowing, and the Master of the Forge dreadnought army concepts. Is there some agreement that on an even skill/experience footing, lists modeled roughly after these ideas could all be equally competitive, or does one in particular(Grey Knights, for example) shine as more of a points-efficient, meat-grinder kind of a list?

 

Black Lorren

[ShadowHaunt]

Another option for low model count, and few vehicles, that remains fluffy would be a Raven Guard force. Raven Guard are a Codex chapter, so they'd work with the rules you've already purchased. They're a chapter known for stealthy tactics, guerrilla warfare, and pinpoint drop pod assaults. Although they have no rules requiring them to avoid vehicles, many Raven Guard players building fluffy lists stick to lighter vehicles, such as Land Speeders, over tanks, and use Drop Pods rather than Rhinos for their main troops.

 

You can further reduce the model count at any given points level, by taking more Sternguard or Vanguard, and easing up on the normal tactical marines. As Raven Guard are also known for extensive use of scout squads, you can actually build a force that is focused around the veteran infantry, and meet your core troop requirements solely with scouts, and still be quite solidly within the lore with the list.

[The Emperor's Champion]

4) Is it a Warhammer faux pas to create an army and play it under a different set of rules(ie. An army painted to look like Ultramarines, following the Space Wolves set of rules)?

It is kind of like playing an elf warrior in Dungeons & Dragosn but using the racial stats of a half orc because you prefer the strength bonus over the usual elven agility.

To answer that question in what I feel is a bit more clear of a way - it really depends on how you do it and why.

 

40k is based around the idea of creating your own army

There will be plenty of completely made up armies that look nothing like Space Wolves but use the Space Wolf Codex, even though it's really primarily intended for Space Wolves.

There will be plenty of completely made up armies that use the Space Marines Codex, because the Codex:Space Marines is the Codex meant to cover the vast majority of the unnamed Chapters throughout the Imperium AND most of the famous ones too.

^Those are completely expected ways of doing it.

 

Sometimes a player of one of those Chapters Of Legend, that are supposedly covered in the Codex:Space Marines, will find that another Codex will allow him to field an army that is significantly closer to what is presented as the Chapter's style in the army's background fluff. For example, you will find some Iron Hands players have elected to use the Codex:Space Wolves for fielding their Iron Hands, instead of the Codex:Space Marines where the Iron Hands are actually listed.

 

Sometimes a player will have a sub-force of a Chapter that they can't properly represent using that Chapter's primary Codex, so they will turn to whichever Codex is best able to make a legal version of that force. For example, if you wanted to field just the Ultramarines 1st Company, you couldn't do it with the Codex:Space Marines because you can't take Veterans or Terminators as Troops choices. Therefore, a lot of 1st Company Ultramarines armies will use the Codex:Dark Angels in order to get access to Deathwing Terminators for their Troops choices, and then they take Veterans as their Elites choices.

 

And then there are players who simply want to use other Codices because they have basically the same things except more powerful, or for less points. THAT is what annoys people.

However, IF the army's actual Codex is known to be unfairly weak, then this can be seen as a legitimate stop-gap measure for keeping your army playable until GW gives it a much needed update.

 

 

 

So, basically, the answer is more or less that people will be cool with it if you've got good legitimate reasons. It's the powergaming-type reasons people don't like.

[NemFX]

well.. 2000 points and 'small army' isnt exactly feasible for space marines.

 

but.

 

if you want a competitive army for space marines, thats fairly small on numbers, that i can do.

 

master of the forge

3x venerable dreadnaughts

10 space marines in two five-man squads

3 thunderfire cannons

 

thats 1065 points right there.

[Orlunu]

Under the new rules I believe that you could field both GK and SM together for 2000pts

 

GK Champion 100

GK Terminator squad(10 men)*2 800

SM Kor'sarro (sans bike) 160

SM Command squad 115

SM Tactical squad*4 360

 

1335

 

GK Vindicare assassin 145

GK Interceptor squad(10 men) 260

GK Stormraven 205

 

1945

 

Men 58

 

33.534482758620689655172413793103 pts per man (ignoring Stormraven crew)

 

GK to "hold the line", SMs outflank and envelop/grab objectives. If you want even fewer men, replace Kor'sarro with Pedro and two of the tactical squads with one of sternguard. The third block is what I think shouldn't be changed at all, Vindicare when used well can take out 500+ points. Interceptors in a stormraven make a brilliant decapitation force. Long range heavy weapons? Drop GK assault troops on them from the sky, no more problem. Then use their teleporters to charge into another. Stormraven is also required to try and counter enemy fliers.

 

No upgrades taken, and so you would probably reduce the size of a few squads to recoup points, so there will be fewer models if you turn this into a list. These troops units are vital in the newer editions, many have been the times when I have come up against Draigowing and rolled objective based missions. When they realise that I only have to kill six of their models to render them incapable of taking any objectives, they are not happy bunnies.

 

If you have many fewer than this you won't have enough by way of troops and you will be taken to pieces either by melta and plasma fire or to the bucketloads of dice from a fifty man IG squad with flashlights sneaking a couple past your saves.

 

Just my two points worth.

[rpnightsend]

Well this has only been adressed briefly and feels should probably warrant a little more discussion: What do you want your army to look like? You said you care about their looks and thats Grey Knights are too flashy, so here's my two cents on this topic based on what armies have been mentioned:

Grey Knights: Very flashy, pristine look. They're the Emperor's Golden Boys and they wear the fanciest, shiniest, holiest armor they can possibly make.

Space Wolves: A little bit drab in coloring (Usually grey or grey/blue) but characterful in looks. They usually have a lot of interesting decorations, especially symbols of wolves and weapons.

Dark Angels: Also a bit on the drab side (Their terminators are Bone-white, their bikes are black, the rest of their guys are dark green) but they also are quite characterful in decoration. They were hoods and robes and use many symbols of swords and wings.

Master of the Forge Lists: These could be any Codex: Space Marines chapter, but Iron Hands jumped to mind for me. They colors are black with a good amount of metal do to their tendency to mutilate themselves and replace body parts with bionic limbs/eyes/spleens/etc.

 

Personally, I'd say go with Wolves or Dark Angels from your descriptions, as theyre a bit more forgiving for new players than Grey Knights and Dreadnought lists (at least in my opinion). I'm also a tread-head so I'd advocate bringing more tanks to reduce model count.

[Leonaides]

Leonaides: I was afraid the manuveurability issue was going to bite me in the ass. Are you implying that more defensively-minded, static forces tend to suffer from the dynamics of the game, or that they aren't a particular forte for the Space Marines?

 

Anyway, I'm going to be taking a closer look at Space Wolves, Dark Angels Deathwing, Grey Knights Draigowing, and the Master of the Forge dreadnought army concepts. Is there some agreement that on an even skill/experience footing, lists modeled roughly after these ideas could all be equally competitive, or does one in particular(Grey Knights, for example) shine as more of a points-efficient, meat-grinder kind of a list?

 

Black Lorren

 

Space marine armies benefit from being able to choose the 'who, when and where' of games since you will almost always be outnumbered across the whole battlefield. Its about hitting your opponents weak spot with the most appropriate counter-unit in your army and minmising your opponents opportunity to retalliate with blocking terrain, units, pure distance, etc. A low manouvrability army will 'usually' not be able to engage on its own terms, and will probably have to let the opponent choose which units fight where (thus allowing them to determine the match-ups). Defensive can work, but you will struggle against some other armies that can do a 'stand-off' army better (Imp Guard tanks, some Eldar/Dark Eldar, Necrons, posisbly even some Tyranids), purely because thats where their armies strengths can be focussed better.

 

You might not want to have all-jump infantry though - a couple of faster units (Jump infantry, bikes, units in transports, units in drop-pods, termies teleporting for example) can be enough to give you a bit of disruption power to stop the enemy having all the say in what happens. Also, some battles will require you to move around the board and take objectives - obviously models on foot may struggle with this more than other units.

[*Furyou Miko]

I disagree.

 

On the whole - compared to say, Eldar or Tyranids - Space Marines are very, very forgiving on the "choose your battles" side of things because for the most part, the only difference between unit types is equipment - a Devastator Marine and a Tactical Marine are both just as effective in close combat and can hold their own against most enemies, while an Assault Marine is just a Tactical Marine who gets 2 attacks in CC instead of 2 attacks at range.

[Axagoras]

My advice would be to look up the 9 loyalist legions backgrounds and find 1 that fits you, then find a successor chapter or make your own. If you choose a chapter with a book then give it a read and see if you like the rules/ play style, if not then use the space marine codex, with 8 named HQs to choose from you can field nearly what ever you need.

[BlackLorren]

Some more good info here. Thanks to the mod who moved this to a better home.

 

Regarding the army "look" that feels right to me, I'm not really about flash. I'm working on a painting style that is based more on mud-spattered, soot-covered, battle-scarred armoured little men, instead of the nice, crisp, clean heraldic details I see on Grey Knights models and the like. I'm seriously considering the Marines Malevolent, just because the name is cool, the attitude seems fitting for me, and fairly solid yellow doesn't seem like a terribly taxing paint job. The other one that appeals on an immediate basis is the Iron Hands.

 

Now, regarding maneuverability. I'm actually hoping to find a way to offset limited maneuverability by increasing ranged weapon volume. I'd like to lay most of my hurt on during the shooting phase, and just keep a dedicated assault unit or two for line disruption, harassment, and counterattacking those who get too close. Either that, or having a small, powerful group of melee fighters moving forward, perhaps in a Land Raider, with a whole lot of big-bore firepower to support the advance. Generally, when playing board games(Risk, for example), I tend to take a more cautious, defensive mindset.

 

For Axagoras, I've taken that advice and done some reading(Lexicanum) to find a force that suits me. There are a few different ones that appeal, and I'm just trying to figure out which one best suits my style. Also, I find myself self-limiting in the regards that a specific chapter should not only look like that chapter, but behave in the manner that that chapter would behave in. While I know I can say "this is my slow-moving White Scars army, because they can fight like that", or "here's the Salamanders army I've made without any hammers or flame", I find myself personally bothered by that for some reason. Salamanders should be filled with fire and hammers, and White Scars should be a very mobile group. It's really a personal limitation, for reasons I can't fully explain, and it's a pain.

 

Right now, I've narrowed things down a little further. I think I'd like to include a Dreadnought or 2, some form of drop-pod force, Terminators(preferably not Assault Terminators), and a either a Techmarine, Chaplain, or Librarian, based on some of the cool models I've seen. I find myself disinterested in bikes/land speeders, most tank models(although I'll probably end up doing a couple anyway), and scouts. Have I already hamstrung myself with these kinds of choices?

 

Black Lorren

[Axagoras]

I noticed you talked about model count, my army runs 50 models exactly and is easy to carry around ( I have a lot more but they stay in boxes). And no, you have no screwed your self over by not using those units, you just need to make sure any list you builds has enough tools for any job at hand which marines can do easily, and if you dont like speeders and vehicles I would recommend taking a look at the thunderfire cannon for support to your army, since 6th ed started ive been using 2. Anyway good luck and remember to have fun. :)

[Schultzhoffen]

You'll play Marines for 10 years and still find tactics to use for them (at least, I do).

 

You will need:

 

1) Psychic Defense

2) Anti Tank

3) Anti Horde

4) Scoring Units

5) Manouverability

6) Some CC

7) Shooting

8)...and my favourite: an Alpha Strike/Suicide unit.

 

Please note that Codex Marines ARE NOT a Close Combat army -they are an all round, flexible army with some effective CC units.

 

So:

 

1) Librarian -100 points without upgrades =Excellent support unit.

2) Mid range = Multi Meltas (Mainly on the AWESOME Attack Bikes or Land Speeders).

Long Range = Lascannons (Predator Tanks rock).

3) Anti Horde = Template Weapons (flamers, Missiles, Thunderfire Cannon, etc).

4) Troops = Tactical Squads

5) You'll need vehicles to transport your men (and for some added protection) - sorry.

6) Assault Terminators in a Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer is the factory Standard. Nothing else in the Codex needs to apply (Ironclads are ok -ish).

7) Sternguard. Sternguard. Sternguard. Sternguard. Sternguard.

8) Drop Pods (1 or 3) loaded with Sternguard and/or Ironclads with the trimmings.

 

Codex Marines is a Man's army. You learn how to fight and win without fancy deviations/rules/mutations. You fight as the god Emperor intended. With guts, blood and brains.

 

Good Luck.

[Haranin]

A good player with a bad list is more feared then a new or bad player with a netlist.

 

Netlist to get you started; but its your understanding of the game and skill that will win battles, not your army.

 

Low model count armies are unforgiving. A deviation from the norm in dice roll can flatten your army fast.

[Bannus]

Thanks to the mod who moved this to a better home.

Glad to help.

 

The one thing you must understand about Space Marines is that they do everything well, but don't really excel at anything. They are a jack-of-all-trades army. They do very well against other armies because they all specialize more or less in a particular fighting style. With Space Marines, it is a game of rock-paper-scissors. You choose to fight your enemy in his weakest category - making you the more dangerous opponent. You can pretty much be assured that you can outfight what you can't outshoot and outshoot what you can't outfight. You will be able to outmaneuver slower opponents and castle against faster ones. Experience will tell which way to go when facing other power-armored armies.

[Axagoras]

5) You'll need vehicles to transport your men (and for some added protection) - sorry.

 

Codex Marines is a Man's army. You learn how to fight and win without fancy deviations/rules/mutations. You fight as the god Emperor intended. With guts, blood and brains.

 

Good Luck.

 

I disagree with transport vehicles altogether, you can no longer get out and assault even if you stay still or get wrecked (maybe exploded but thats a whole other can of worms) but i do run a gunline because the only 2 armies marines can outfight in CC is guard and tau, small ork squads and eldar if you get the charge.

 

But if your not running tanks you will need something to deliver a punch to enemy vehicles in their deployment such as hammerheads, basilisks, and land raiders with assault termies (make em walk to you) and i recommend 2 speeders with dual multi melta, but any suicide squad will work, sternguard or ironclads can do the job but expect them to die after 1 turn.

 

 

And Schultzhoffen I have never heard truer words spoken, we dont use guide or doom, giant monsters or hordes of tanks and troops but we still get the job done, FOR THE EMPEROR!