New, with questions.

[Captain Idaho]

You'll play Marines for 10 years and still find tactics to use for them (at least, I do).

 

You will need:

 

1) Psychic Defense

2) Anti Tank

3) Anti Horde

4) Scoring Units

5) Manouverability

6) Some CC

7) Shooting

8)...and my favourite: an Alpha Strike/Suicide unit.

 

Please note that Codex Marines ARE NOT a Close Combat army -they are an all round, flexible army with some effective CC units.

 

So:

 

1) Librarian -100 points without upgrades =Excellent support unit.

2) Mid range = Multi Meltas (Mainly on the AWESOME Attack Bikes or Land Speeders).

Long Range = Lascannons (Predator Tanks rock).

3) Anti Horde = Template Weapons (flamers, Missiles, Thunderfire Cannon, etc).

4) Troops = Tactical Squads

5) You'll need vehicles to transport your men (and for some added protection) - sorry.

6) Assault Terminators in a Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer is the factory Standard. Nothing else in the Codex needs to apply (Ironclads are ok -ish).

7) Sternguard. Sternguard. Sternguard. Sternguard. Sternguard.

8) Drop Pods (1 or 3) loaded with Sternguard and/or Ironclads with the trimmings.

 

Codex Marines is a Man's army. You learn how to fight and win without fancy deviations/rules/mutations. You fight as the god Emperor intended. With guts, blood and brains.

 

Good Luck.

 

I agree for the most part. The only parts I don't agree with is 1) since we have neglible defences for 6th edition now, so forking out 100pts on a Librarian is extremely cirucmstantial on it's effectiveness.

 

I also would like to clarify your reference to Mid ranged weapons - Multi-Meltas are best as close ranged heavy firepower whilst assault cannons are mid ranged.

[Schultzhoffen]

@Captain Idaho

 

Agreed wrt to MMs (I should have said shorter range for maximum effectiveness) - although I've never really used Assault Cannons and I like MMs.

 

The Librarian's Psychic Powers are also excellent, I find Chaplains fairly tame/bland (sadly) and Captains are a moderate CC unit compared with other CC armies (and requires an army build around a CC ideal -which I feel is wrong for Marines). I feel that a naked Librarian is (point wise) the best HQ we have.

[Axagoras]

Lysander and Vulkan are our 2 best HQs, both are tough as nails and can help the army immensely.

[Schultzhoffen]

They also cost bucketloads. I did make the point about cost-effectiveness.

[BlackLorren]

Axagoras: HQs. Funny that you write this, as this is where my focus has fallen. It seems to me that in many cases, the HQ unit really dictates the feel and combat style of a Space Marine army. Thus far, I've looked pretty hard at Vulkan, Lysander, Pedro Kantor, and a couple of different generic characters. Lysander is holding my attention, simply because he looks like he'd be a handful to deal with in combat(especially if supported by some Vanguard or Assault Terminators), and his Bolter Drill and Bolster Ruins look like good buffs for a shooting-based army. I've also considered Vulkan, but I think he'd be an HQ shoehorned in or replacing someone else after the fact, if I had stuffed enough flame weapons and hammers in to make him worthwhile. I haven't had a chance to look at some others(Dante, Astorath, Logan Grimnar, Draigo, etc) aside from the GW models, because I haven't got the books.

 

Do you select your HQ and then build your army list around the perks they offer? Do you built an army list and find an HQ to fit? Or do you treat your HQ independently? Are you better off using your HQ as a supporting character to your army, or as a front-line war machine? I'm considering the latter school of thought myself. I've got an image of a counts-as Lysander leading a group of melee fighters to challenge the enemy lines, supported by a heavy gun line, with a secondary group of jump-packed close-quarters fighters to either reinforce Lysander's melee thrust, or to counterattack melee units engaging my firing line. Maybe a Thunderfire Cannon for longer-range shooting, as the Techmarine seems like it may have some benefits as well. It seems like a better bet than the Whirlwind, anyway, and looks nicer to boot.

 

Anyway, thanks for the thoughts thus far. I guess the primary question right now is regarding "order of selection", so to speak. Where do you tend to start when selecting specific units for an army list? With your HQ? Troops? Somewhere else? I've got an established idea of what I want to do, but now I have to figure out how to get there.

[Schultzhoffen]

If you want a CC army choose BA or (maybe) SW.

 

If you go C:SMs and want a CC HQ, you'll have to build your army around this character.

 

For example: Lysander dictates Terminators and 'Raiders (for transport/protection). This can be effective but will result in a substantial points investment (and smaller armies tend to suffer).

 

Sadly, Assault Marines with Jump Packs are rather meh and not really worth it (at least they are Troops in the BA Codex). Vanguard are a better option (but very expensive).

 

Thunderfire cannons can be excellent.

 

Personally, my HQ has a supporting role. I have a balanced list to deal with all situations. I start with x2 Tactical Squads in rhinos, then a sniper scout unit. In other words, my troop selections come first.

 

I then go to heavy support, elites and fast attack. My HQ comes last. I have found that the proper application of a well-balanced army wins games NOT an HQ choice (at least, not with C:SM).

 

Perhaps Blood Angels would suit you better? They are a CC army with Assault Squads and their Assault Terminators can be accompanied by Priests for Furious Charge and Feel No Pain Buffs. Furthermore, Mephiston is a beast, Death Company are an outstanding CC unit and they have access to fast tanks.

 

C:SM requires a very flexible mind-set. You need to be smart and put the testosterone on hold. They are not the kind of army that crushes the enemy in CC (unless you're facing an incompetant general/IG or Tau).

 

Silent Requiem wrote an excellent Tactica about the Way of The Water Warrior some years back. It was really about the (then) GKs and it is somewhat outdated but the principles remain the same. This is the most effective I've found C:SMs to be.

 

I've had BTs, BAs and Chaos. I've run a stock standard Ultramarine list for 10 years with hardly any change to roster despite new rule sets. They are a middle of the road army that requires finesse and experience to bring the best out of.

[Axagoras]

I put Lysander with 10 tactical terminators with 1 chainfist and 2 assault cannons, because his bolter drill will do you no good in a assault terminator squad, and you are correct in my last battle Lysander took on a t9 hivetyrant and smashed it. :( I start off with an HQ because if your gonna use a named character you want to build the list around the chapter tactics.

[BlackLorren]

If you want a CC army choose BA or (maybe) SW. I've actually suggested previously that I'm looking at a more guns-focused list.

 

If you go C:SMs and want a CC HQ, you'll have to build your army around this character. The more I thought about that, the more it seemed like it needed to be that way.

 

For example: Lysander dictates Terminators and 'Raiders (for transport/protection). This can be effective but will result in a substantial points investment (and smaller armies tend to suffer). A smaller force is something that I'm aiming for.

 

Sadly, Assault Marines with Jump Packs are rather meh and not really worth it (at least they are Troops in the BA Codex). Vanguard are a better option (but very expensive). I like the look/feel of Vanguards on paper, but I'll have to find some tactical information. There doesn't seem to be a lot of it around.

 

Thunderfire cannons can be excellent.

 

Personally, my HQ has a supporting role. I have a balanced list to deal with all situations. I start with x2 Tactical Squads in rhinos, then a sniper scout unit. In other words, my troop selections come first.

 

I then go to heavy support, elites and fast attack. My HQ comes last. I have found that the proper application of a well-balanced army wins games NOT an HQ choice (at least, not with C:SM).

 

Perhaps Blood Angels would suit you better? They are a CC army with Assault Squads and their Assault Terminators can be accompanied by Priests for Furious Charge and Feel No Pain Buffs. Furthermore, Mephiston is a beast, Death Company are an outstanding CC unit and they have access to fast tanks. I'm trying to minimize tanks included and restrict my CC forces in favour of shooting infantry.

 

C:SM requires a very flexible mind-set. You need to be smart and put the testosterone on hold. They are not the kind of army that crushes the enemy in CC (unless you're facing an incompetant general/IG or Tau).

 

Silent Requiem wrote an excellent Tactica about the Way of The Water Warrior some years back. It was really about the (then) GKs and it is somewhat outdated but the principles remain the same. This is the most effective I've found C:SMs to be. Going looking for this...

 

I've had BTs, BAs and Chaos. I've run a stock standard Ultramarine list for 10 years with hardly any change to roster despite new rule sets. They are a middle of the road army that requires finesse and experience to bring the best out of.

 

 

I put Lysander with 10 tactical terminators with 1 chainfist and 2 assault cannons, because his bolter drill will do you no good in a assault terminator squad, and you are correct in my last battle Lysander took on a t9 hivetyrant and smashed it. :huh: I start off with an HQ because if your gonna use a named character you want to build the list around the chapter tactics.

 

This is an idea that occurred to me as well. But I'm considering swapping out some of the Tactical Terminators for Assault Terminators for more of a close-combat force. Run the Assault Terminators and Lysander up the centre in a Raider, with the Tacticals trudging along as a covering-fire unit, and the rest of my army advancing on the flanks, in line with or slightly behind the Tacticals. A centrally-located, highly-mobile assault force that can respond to melee attackers anywhere along my line. This is a rough plan, and obviously needs some applied math to the points totals to work out exactly what's possible, but this is the general idea coming to my head.

 

And for Schultzhoffen, I'm aiming for a smaller force, and am prepared to spend more points-per-model as a result. I also haven't entirely written off the idea of a cheaper, generic HQ, but I'm now fixed in the idea that I'd like to use my HQ as a front-line unit, and have him supported by a group of melee fighters. Things that are immediately coming to mind are Lysander and Shrike, or a generic Chaplain, Captain, or Chapter Master, supported by Assault Marines, Vanguard Veterans, or Assault Terminators. I'm a little iffy on Shrike, just because I'm not sure how much swapping Combat Tactics for Fleet will be of benefit, since I'm trying to remain on the shooting side of things, although there's something to be said about an early-game assault on a choice target.

 

Now, how important is dictation of speed in this game? I always learned through sports when I was a kid how important it was to control the tempo of the game. I'm not sure if this applies here. Turns don't happen super fast, and an opponent has his own time to consider his moves. Is it more important to play your own game strongly, or find a way to interfere with his?

 

I'm going on the basis here of starting with an HQ and supporting forces, and then building the army out from there. So now I'm aiming to build a melee threat around an HQ, to fit into a firing-line army at 2000 points or less. I feel like I'm getting somewhere. Thanks for the contributions thus far.

 

Black Lorren

 

EDIT: A dose of absinthe does wonders for my ability to spell. Wow.

[Captain Idaho]

The Librarian's Psychic Powers are also excellent, I find Chaplains fairly tame/bland (sadly) and Captains are a moderate CC unit compared with other CC armies (and requires an army build around a CC ideal -which I feel is wrong for Marines). I feel that a naked Librarian is (point wise) the best HQ we have.

 

I agree the Librarian is amazing in the right circumstances for for their points, I was just contesting the notion Librarians were essential for a Codex army's Psychic defences due to the new Psychic rules.

 

Lysander and Vulkan are our 2 best HQs, both are tough as nails and can help the army immensely.

 

Lysander is cool in the right army and all but Vulkan certainly is situational and not out best character in any shape or form. His rules are great for a themed army but you HAVE to theme your army to utilise his rules or else he's over rated.

[Schultzhoffen]

If your heart is set on a CC HQ your best bet is probably Lysander with an Assault Terminator Bodyguard in a Landraider Crusader/Redeemer (or a generic Terminator Captain if you wish to save points). I am also hearing good things about Honour Guard.

 

Your army list could dictate playing style but I like to get into the middle of the board/enemy zone asap to give him nightmares (drop pods are perfect for this). I use suicide units for this job (basically any unit that's available -remember: the MISSION is paramount, forget casualties). While he's worrying about/dealing with your suicide units (I use an Ironclad and a 10 man Sternguard Squad with the trimmings in drop pods for this job), the rest of your army seizes the objectives. In other words, I Alpha Strike the hell out of him in my first Turn.

 

I have heavy fire as support in the form of x2 Predators (Auto/Las), a Vindicator and the ever wonderful (x2) MM Attack Bikes. Tactical Terminators with a Cyclone ML advance in support.

 

If you let your opponent dictate you'll probably lose. Force him to react to YOU. Force him into making mistakes. Give him a lot a headaches (smaller armies CAN NOT do this).

 

The concern with a small army is that it is easy to shoot apart/swamp in melee or simply avoid/feed exendable troops to.

 

No plan/list/tactic is fool proof and the bottom line is that you'll need to play/experiment/learn through trial and error. I'd suggest using your first 10 games for this -forget about winning, simply see what works for you.

 

Furthermore, before buying much, borrow units from mates or proxy -the last thing you want to do is buy a unit you'll use once.

[Axagoras]

If your using assault terminators use vulkan... He master crafts their thunderhammers, if your using regular use lysander for his bolterdrill

[Captain Idaho]

Calgar goes well with Assault Terminators too, and he has super-morale better than Stubborn will ever be. He also smashes apart the enemy pretty good.

[Gideon999]

I would take a look at Space Wolves as well. I know you mentioned you have briefly looked at them, but they bear a close look if you want good utility in a low model count with low vehicle count.

 

Long Fangs - the best heavy weapon unit in the game, bar none. 6 in a squad with 5 missile launchers is one of the most versatile and powerful squads you can get in a marine army for the points.

 

Grey Hunters - like a standard vanilla codex tactical squad, but with 2 attacks base (2 close combat weapons), counter-attack (so you can rapid fire him and then let him charge you and still get your +1 attack), banners to let you reroll all 1's in a single turn of assault, and dual special weapons (so you can get better unit synergy). Also they are cheaper than tactical marines before you add upgrades.

 

Logan Grimnar - allows you to take Wolf Guard (who can take terminator armour) as troops. Allowing you to get LOTS of very powerful infantry on the table with a lot of customization options. Also he has some wonderful special rules that work well with virtually any army build (though he is expensive).

 

Wolf Guard - your vets. These guys are flexible and powerufl in many roles.

 

Plus if you like space vikings, these are your guys!

 

I played vanilla for years and struggled, I just couldnt get enough shooting out of them to go all gunline and I couldnt get enough close combat to go assault based. Space wolves gave me both!