Angron's personality

[Captain Idaho]

One of the things I find a pretty compelling notion is the primarchs changing their opinion of the Emperor over the course of the Heresy, as they grow as characters and come to understand the intricacies of the universe better.

 

Or indeed mis-understand the intricacies of the universe. :)

[A D-B]

One of the things I find a pretty compelling notion is the primarchs changing their opinion of the Emperor over the course of the Heresy, as they grow as characters and come to understand the intricacies of the universe better.

 

Or indeed mis-understand the intricacies of the universe. :)

 

Which is indeed much likelier.

 

"40K: In the Grim Darkness of the Far Future, Everyone's Wrong in Different Ways."

 

Not a punchy marketing slogan, mind.

[Azekai]

"40K: In the Grim Darkness of the Far Future, Everyone's Wrong in Different Ways."

 

The above also applies for the fan base. :D

[Captain Juan Juarez]

"40K: In the Grim Darkness of the Far Future, Everyone's Wrong in Different Ways."

 

From now on, can you pop up with this in all those circular fluff arguments that crop up?

[jeremy1391]

You know A-D-B the more I look in the world eaters the more I find them to be very human in some ways, Angron is a superior being but he seems to have PTSD on an ungodly scale thus hulking out, not because he wants to but because he need to to make the buzzing stop..... It's tragic, I never thought I would say this but I actually sympathize with the big guy, he is a fighter not a tactician or wizard or perfectionist. He is a brutal up the middle kick ass take names and lop off as many heads as fast as possible and move on type of guy.

 

I recant my statement about Angron being unfit to lead, his legion seems to do alright following in the wake of this red butcher and the cooler heads of those like Khârn seem to keep the legion from losing itself (at least so far). The legion IS A TERROR WEAPON so they are actually fulfilling the role I thought Angron should fill in my original post. Problem solved!

[Pulse]

"40K: In the Grim Darkness of the Far Future, Everyone's Wrong in Different Ways."

:)

[The_son_of_Dorn]

tbf i think we can all sympathise with Angron, at some point all of us have wanted to throw civility and strategy to the wind and just kick the living $**t out of our foes.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I recant my statement about Angron being unfit to lead, his legion seems to do alright following in the wake of this red butcher and the cooler heads of those like Khârn seem to keep the legion from losing itself (at least so far). The legion IS A TERROR WEAPON so they are actually fulfilling the role I thought Angron should fill in my original post. Problem solved!

 

The thing is though, this seems at odds with the War Hounds prior to the rediscovery of Angron; granted we never really get a sense of the Legion pre-Angron but the snippets from things like After Desh'ea don't give the impression of them being a terror weapon.

 

I now have no recollection of what my point was but i have a new one to make! Prior to Angron there doesn't seem, from the limited information we have, to be anything that marks the War Hounds/World Eaters out as "this Legion" in the way that the Emperor's Children are the perfect Legion or the (and I know some will despise me for this :tu:) that the Space Wolves are the "executioner" Legion.

[jeremy1391]

Well with a name like "war hounds" I would imagine they would be an in the thick of it kick ya in the nuts type of legion. When hunting with hounds for example you have them on a leash then when they have the scent you release them to either tree or take down your prey. Sounds like the world eaters we all know and love.

 

Also Angron was a monstrous gladiator even before he had his implants installed, hell there is old fluff of him offing a squad of aspect warriors as a babe! Since marines take after their primarch based on gene seed wouldn't his predisposition for close combat be genetically ingrained in his sons?

[Wrath of Terra]

I recant my statement about Angron being unfit to lead, his legion seems to do alright following in the wake of this red butcher and the cooler heads of those like Khârn seem to keep the legion from losing itself (at least so far). The legion IS A TERROR WEAPON so they are actually fulfilling the role I thought Angron should fill in my original post. Problem solved!

 

The thing is though, this seems at odds with the War Hounds prior to the rediscovery of Angron; granted we never really get a sense of the Legion pre-Angron but the snippets from things like After Desh'ea don't give the impression of them being a terror weapon.

 

I now have no recollection of what my point was but i have a new one to make! Prior to Angron there doesn't seem, from the limited information we have, to be anything that marks the War Hounds/World Eaters out as "this Legion" in the way that the Emperor's Children are the perfect Legion or the (and I know some will despise me for this :thanks:) that the Space Wolves are the "executioner" Legion.

 

In one of the snippets he's shown us for Betrayer (possibly the intro) Khârn is speaking to someone about why they stopped calling themselves the Warhounds. He basically says that the Wolves shouldn't be called wolves as after they've been let off the leash they'll always come to heel when called. The Warhounds didn't/wouldn't so the hounds part of their name was inappropriate for them and more suited to the Wolves.

 

It's a great little snippet and if the Warhounds went to greater extremes early on than even the self-proclaimed Emperor's executioners, the Wolves, then that sounds exactly like they were a terror weapon from pretty much the outset.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Well with a name like "war hounds" I would imagine they would be an in the thick of it kick ya in the nuts type of legion. When hunting with hounds for example you have them on a leash then when they have the scent you release them to either tree or take down your prey. Sounds like the world eaters we all know and love.

 

Except that hounds, of any stripe, have often had cahracteristics such as loyalty at the forefront of description.. Ironic given the epithet of Khârn and the events surrounding the Legion as a whole.

 

Since marines take after their primarch based on gene seed wouldn't his predisposition for close combat be genetically ingrained in his sons?

 

Space Marines are influenced by their primarch but I don't think to so great an extent as that; in the story I mentioned they short dialogue there was hinted at more intelligence and thought than is potrayed in the World Eaters with Angron leading them.

 

That's not to say murderous rage and slaughter mean there was no intelligence involved, someone still had to plan at the beginning, but it just doesn't jive with me the more I think about it.

 

EDIT: Wrath, I now fully admit to forgetting that bit and I feel like my whole house of cards has come tumbling down over one unremembered fact.

[Aegnor]

I don't agree with the characterisation of Angron as a poor military leader. There's no fluff I'm aware of that supports this idea, just the preconception that his assumed style wouldn't work well. The World Eaters weren't slavering berserkers until after their fall. They were brutal, not given to half-measures, and not prone to seeking alternatives to mass bloodshed. As someone said before, Angron was probably a terrible candidate to be the leader of the Council of Terra, or the next Guilliman, but as a lethal, scary, commander of shock troops to be let loose against hard targets that you want destroyed, not captured, he's your man. Maybe his approach wouldn't work as we can envisage it, but he's a genius warrior demi-god, and I'm guessing he is fairly effective in finding ways to make what he does work.

 

Think about the World Eaters we've seen who weren't at Isstvan. Skraal in Battle for the Abyss, the guys from Outcast Dead, Khârn in After De'Shea. They are shown as having absolute commitment, unflinching focus, and huge savagery, but they aren't idiots. In Butcher's Nails, Angron says "I've never lost a war" and his legion isn't exactly in ruins as a consequence.

[Sublime Heresy]

I agree with the above. There is no evidence at all of Angron being a poor commander...in fact, he is VERY good at winning. Overwhelming savagery and force is a perfectly valid tactic, and his legion is hardly crippled so he can't lose that many men.

 

Lets not forget that he's hardly alone among Primarchs in having preferred methods of war. His might LOOK more straight forward and simple, but I'm willing to bet it takes a ton of tactical skill to pull of his tactics the way he does, ever lose a war, AND mantain a fully viable combat force all at the same time.

 

The best method of war is the one that wins most effectively, and he does that nicely.

[Sublime Heresy]

I just realised a good comparison on the "is he a good commander" thread of the discussion...

 

Georgy Zhukov. Famously brutal and uncompromising, and he specialised in massively aggressive, fast moving, overwhelming frontal attacks which often overran opposing troops with melee charges. At the same time however he cared about his troops deeply (or at least keeping them in fighting shape) nnd managed to keep many, many more of them alive than previous Soviet generals despite his tactics that were (on the surface) very straight forward and simple.

 

Many lists would place him in the top 10 (and almost all in the top 50) military Commanders of all time, and he didn't get there by stealth attacks or anything like that.

[Rik Lightstar]

Also, worth considering that it takes a LOT to kill a Space Marine, so while "casualties" might be really high, "fatalities" may not be, and by the time they're re-deploying after weeks/months of warp travel, they're all fighting fit again or fitted with the appropriate bionics.

 

A marine force would be far more forgiving of these tactics on that level, the Med-Bay might be permanently full but that's not terrible.

 

Rik

[Wrath of Terra]

I just realised a good comparison on the "is he a good commander" thread of the discussion...

 

Georgy Zhukov. Famously brutal and uncompromising, and he specialised in massively aggressive, fast moving, overwhelming frontal attacks which often overran opposing troops with melee charges. At the same time however he cared about his troops deeply (or at least keeping them in fighting shape) nnd managed to keep many, many more of them alive than previous Soviet generals despite his tactics that were (on the surface) very straight forward and simple.

 

Many lists would place him in the top 10 (and almost all in the top 50) military Commanders of all time, and he didn't get there by stealth attacks or anything like that.

 

I like the comparison between Angron and Zhukov in terms of tactics. Very astute.

 

And I especially like that it leads into a tangent about Stalin being the Emperor (which according to lore he may have been). Eisenhower would be Guilliman - the arch-organiser, the level headed leader of the most powerful all-round force.

 

Russ could be Rommel - feared and respected by friends and foe alike. Fighting to a code that's somewhat out of place to his surroundings.

 

The hard part would be deciding which preening narcissist would be Fulgrim; Monty or Patton :lol:

[Wade Garrett]

Vulkan is Omar Bradley. More concerned with "Do the job and keep my troops alive" than "cover myself in laurels of glory".

 

I vote Monty as Fulgrim, Patton can be Lion El Johnson, with both of them having somewhat odd beliefs (Reincarnation, The Watchers in the Dark) and (justified?) paranoia about those theoretically on their side (The Soviets, The Ultramarines.)

 

Dorn is...Douglas MacArthur maybe? I'm seeing paralells between Dorn running things on Terra while Dad was mucking around with the Webway and Doug's Shogunship of Japan. (Although that leaves us with no small number of candidates for Perturabo, who had their hard work overshadowed by the giant pedastal big brother Rogal built to put himself on).

[jeremy1391]

Dorn is Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller! The man who made it happen several times in the pacific!

 

best quote by him

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things."

 

The island campaigns of world war II were for the most part sieges.

[Kazak1920]

Jesus, what are you talking about :tu: Zhukov was an incompetent idiot, he only throw masses of "soldiers" on German lines despite of great casualties. This is only reason he won - he got almost infinite peoples compare to Germans.

Stalin - he was murderer, animal and devil. I hope he's burning in hell for all he done to many nations enslaved by communists.

Comparing these two soviet bastards to Emperor, or even Angron is an insult for them. Imperium before HH was prosperous and rich, ZSRR was a ruin. Even 20 years after its fall, many countries from eastern block can't stand on their feet.

 

But that proves one thing - soviets was good at propaganda.

[Sublime Heresy]

I never mentioned Stalin, but that was clearly a comedy comparison. The internets lack of a "humour font" strikes again <_<

[randian]

One of the mysteries here is why the Emperor, super-genius that he is, didn't remove or disable Angron's implants. If the World Eaters could create crude copies, the Emperor presumably could have done better. Much better. Angron clearly detests them, even though by the story in Aurelian he comes to like the "calm in the storm" part of their effect. Of course, that's the thinking of a child, which he basically was when implanted. An adult wouldn't confuse that with the peace of proper rest and sleep.

 

I'm still trying to figure out how the implant docs ever got them to work, Angron's mind is structured nothing like a human mind, and they didn't have any plans to work with. Just hammering them in place and hoping for the best shouldn't have gotten them anything but a drooling near-corpse.

 

Khârn and the rest of the WEs weren't stupid-insane until after Angron ordered them to accept the implants. The deleterious effect they had on Angron were plain to see, so I wonder why there was so little objection to them. "Yeah, boss, we'd like to be as screwed up as you are."

[Wade Garrett]

Khârn and the rest of the WEs weren't stupid-insane until after Angron ordered them to accept the implants. The deleterious effect they had on Angron were plain to see, so I wonder why there was so little objection to them. "Yeah, boss, we'd like to be as screwed up as you are."

 

I won't go that far. In After De'Shea, Khârn mentions that the War Hounds would practice decimation (kill one man out of every ten) on allied Army units they felt disgraced the Legion in battle, and they were already close quarter combat specialists with a focus on chain axes. In my opinion, the enhanced strength and durability they were granted by the Butcher's Nails were felt to benefit their preferred style of combat enough that it outweighed the drawbacks. Most likely, units that chose the Nails began to outperform those that did not, to the point that the entire Legion felt being implanted with Nails would make them more effective.

[yhta]

angron fight in his way and he made sure that combat goes the way he likes. this is the kind of guy who insted of bring a pistol in a sword fight made sure that you have to use a sword wharever you like or not. he fight with his rule and made sure that his rule stay. or a least that is the way i see

[randian]

In my opinion, the enhanced strength and durability they were granted by the Butcher's Nails were felt to benefit their preferred style of combat enough that it outweighed the drawbacks.

How does rage improve your durability? Your skin isn't any tougher, your skull no thicker.

 

Living in a state of total exhaustion because the implants won't let you sleep seems like a huge honking drawback to me, as does their constant interruption of your train of thought. The implants appear to work much like heroin does: you feel horrible all the time until you get your next hit, and in the long run it's going to kill you.

[Billuriye]

One of the mysteries here is why the Emperor, super-genius that he is, didn't remove or disable Angron's implants. If the World Eaters could create crude copies, the Emperor presumably could have done better. Much better. Angron clearly detests them, even though by the story in Aurelian he comes to like the "calm in the storm" part of their effect. Of course, that's the thinking of a child, which he basically was when implanted. An adult wouldn't confuse that with the peace of proper rest and sleep.

 

I'm still trying to figure out how the implant docs ever got them to work, Angron's mind is structured nothing like a human mind, and they didn't have any plans to work with. Just hammering them in place and hoping for the best shouldn't have gotten them anything but a drooling near-corpse.

 

Khârn and the rest of the WEs weren't stupid-insane until after Angron ordered them to accept the implants. The deleterious effect they had on Angron were plain to see, so I wonder why there was so little objection to them. "Yeah, boss, we'd like to be as screwed up as you are."

 

All correct and irrefutable plot dents. Angron is a mess.