Building A Better ASM Sgt

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Second thread in as many days, I hope I'm not spamming the board.... But I noticed an Army-list posted up by JamesI over in teh subforum and he mentioned a "PF-LC" ASM Sgt, and honestly that guy's got me thinking.


Ok first up, 40pts on weapons is expensive. No way around that--- a Terminator's worth of pts (nearly a MM attackbike). BUT you have to see the beauty of just how flexible those 40pts are! Also, your goal should be to always attempt attacking against Units, not fighting in challenges (although he's not bad-- even though he dies, he's got a really great chance to mutually-destroy whatever kills him).

However, put yourself into your opponents shoes: when charging, the Sarge packs either 4 LC attacks or 4 PF attacks, and can choose either one he'd like. Most of the time, you'll have a Prescience-buff helping those out too-- so when you charge in, do NOT issue a challenge (because most of the time you'd prefer to keep that expensive guy 'hidden'). Now, your opponent has a real dilemma-- he has to decide whether he issues a defenders challenge or not.

If he's got a Initiative-5 guy with AP3 melee, he'll certainly go for the challenge- in which case, you refuse (hopefully you have a SangPriest or Libby with Axes to help 'pick up the slack' when Sarge gets put in the back).

But if you're fighting most normal MEQ units with I4 or lower, or the only AP2-3 melee is I1 (think opposing PF Sgts) then you've got it made, and then you probably CAN issue the challenge. SO when you really, really think about it, in general there are more things PF-LC Sgt will be a threat against than things which will theaten him.

So bottom line, PF-LC is really flexible and the only 'common' things he's afraid of are:

Most HQs and Special Characters (but what Sgt isn't? Not the discussion I'm talking here lol)
Slaneesh-marked Sgts
DE/Eldar Sgts
GK challenges (facing halberd or 2++ staff)
I5 Nid Boneswords
LC/Powersword Termy Sgt
Stormshield challenges

Measure that against things he will beat or mutually destroy:

MEQ Sgts (The important biggie on this list)
PF/TH/PowerAxe challenges
Tervigons (and non-Character MCs)
Wolf Guards (unless Termy-PowerSword)
LIBRARIANS
Ork challenges
CSM challenges
Necron/IG/Tau challenges (baby-seal mode...)
All Walkers & Vehicles


So really the list of things he is afraid of are the things Sgts are always afraid of anyway. But the list of things he can beat is much longer than a Sgt who chose to go 'either LC/Sword or PF'. He's got the best of both worlds, and for +1 attack too (the missing key that made it less useable under 5th ed...)

The obvious competitor is the opposite approach: a totally naked Sgt, for 'eating' a challenge with his bargain-price and protecting his squad that way.

[JamesI]

I have only used the pf/lc sergeant once so far. He (or the other sergeant the Thunder hammer/storm shield) run in a unit with Dante and a priest so there are ways to deal with it if I get challenged by something faster.

 

Though honestly, I'm not sure the points are worth it. A single Lightning claw plus meltabomb is 20 points cheaper, or two claws and a meltabomb for a much smalller savings.

 

But it looks awesome.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

I have only used the pf/lc sergeant once so far. He (or the other sergeant the Thunder hammer/storm shield) run in a unit with Dante and a priest so there are ways to deal with it if I get challenged by something faster.

 

Though honestly, I'm not sure the points are worth it. A single Lightning claw plus meltabomb is 20 points cheaper, or two claws and a meltabomb for a much smalller savings.

 

But it looks awesome.

 

 

Great points about having a 2+ armorsave IC joined to him- greatly improves his utility.

 

The LC-MB is certainly another direct competitor. But I have to disagree about the 2xLC and MB for 35pts. 5pts more gives you better antitank (unless AV13+), FAR better anti-Monstrous Creature, and AP2 melee ability.

 

Just for the record, I know you know but I just want to set this square for the community: A Lightning Claw and a Power Fist now gives +1 attack for having two close combat weapons, because they both have the "Specialist Weapon" characteristic.

 

So 2xLC and LC-PF grant same number of attacks, always.

 

AND I totally agree the model looks awesome! I can't wait to make my own LC-PF models, esp since they 'look' the exact same size except one hand has talons :wub:

[Red Fury]

The obvious competitor is the opposite approach: a totally naked Sgt, for 'eating' a challenge with his bargain-price and protecting his squad that way.

Or worse a PW/LC sgt that will equally kill the sgt or munch on the squad, for less points.

 

 

Though honestly, I'm not sure the points are worth it.

Points are important.

 

What about a sgt with a LC and a SS that isn't afraid of challenges. Throw in a MB and he still costs a few points less but can run in against a PW opponent without the fear of mutually assured destruction.

Let the attached IC mop up the squad and then cut in on the challenge if it gets dragged out.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

The obvious competitor is the opposite approach: a totally naked Sgt, for 'eating' a challenge with his bargain-price and protecting his squad that way.

Or worse a PW/LC sgt that will equally kill the sgt or munch on the squad, for less points.

 

 

Though honestly, I'm not sure the points are worth it.

Points are important.

 

What about a sgt with a LC and a SS that isn't afraid of challenges. Throw in a MB and he still costs a few points less but can run in against a PW opponent without the fear of mutually assured destruction.

Let the attached IC mop up the squad and then cut in on the challenge if it gets dragged out.

 

 

LC/SS/MB is also 40pts... unsure your point there. And again, losing AP2 melee, ability to kill MCs, ability to ID on T4, and worse antitank (only one penetrate hit @AP1 versus 4 glances/pens @AP2)

 

The SS is a solid idea-- but you lose an attack, and you lose 'offensive' flexibility to gain defensive potential... but then you can only fight 3+. If the rest of your list is built to handle 2+, then this is cool--- but 2+ is gettin more and more popular... I like the ability to 'scare'.

 

The more decisions you force your opponent to make, the more chances he has to make mistakes. This is a basic tenet of warfare.

 

Again, think like your opponent-- what would YOU be more scared of? I for one would love for my opponent to take SS anytime-- they don't scare me. A LC-PF is a potential threat to almost anything.

[Red Fury]

Oops yeah, same number of points for the two setups (I must have been thinking of Vanilla's cheaper shields).

 

Yes you loose an attack, but you can use MBs against MCs now and I think they are way better at penetrating armor than a fist too.

 

If you are going up against something with a 2+ save and you don't have a ++ save of your own, you probably wouldn't want the challenge anyway. Most things out there would clean up. A termie sgt with claws, yep thats trouble, but at least you have the 3++ save to keep in the fight. The PF/LC Sgt would just duck out and let the squad get munched for an extra turn.

 

I think the Pf/LC is a neat idea, but I'm not sold. It would be better to have the Sgt with one and an IC with the other. I gave my VV Sgt the LC/SS setup (since no attached IC) but have just kept the Sgts with PFs and don't think they are worth any extra cost.

 

Ok, here's the problem. Against a 2+ opponent with a I4 PW, you'll get eaten before you even get to swing the Fist. What would you dot with the PF/LC? Duck out? Try the LC and get killed while swinging or try the fist and get killed before swinging a punch?

The SS makes your Sgt able to hold his own against those threats. Your 3 attacks with rerolls versus 2 coming back at you.

 

Maybe an axe and a SS is the answer to the problem then? Points, strength and AP are all good. Add in a SS and you have a pretty good chance to get the attack in.

 

Honestly, I'm not sure a RAS Sgt is worth the extra points. And I hate to give up the awesomeness of a PF. But with challenges, a PF Sgt is a dying breed that needs a new solution.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Red Fury, I like your idea of Axe and SS. Props on that.

 

My contention remains that you're focussing on what he can't handle, not what he can handle.

 

Can't handle 2+ armor that has I2+ & AP3. Can't handle I5+ that has AP3. That's a generally small set of things, mind you (but a popular one, granted point back). If you willingly send him against those, it must be because you had no other choice... JPs means we can be pretty choosy towards target selection.

 

He CAN handle anything else....literally anything else.

 

The set of things he can fight > set of things he can't fight.

 

 

Now lets examine versus his competitor, PowerAxe/SS/MB. PAxe/SS can handle a low number of AP3 attacks, therefore shines in Sgt-challenges. He has less attacks and no 'Shred' though, so he is worse versus troop slaying. He is worse against I2+ that has lots of attacks-- even Naked Sgts might 'slip one in' on him. MB can put one wound on a MC (probably just use the Axe versus most MC) or might explode one tank-- but at AP1, 50% causes explodes and 50% is not explodes. So you get one try.

 

Now the other competitor, LC/SS/MB is looking better towards MEQ troops and isn't afraid of naked sgts anymore, but loses his AP2 melee-- but as we've both pointed out now, RAS that is in melee with 2+ enemy is usually having a real bad day anyways. Shred means losing Str5 from Axe isn't such a bad deal. Reflecting critically about this, LC/SS probably beats out Axe/SS.... and just resign yourself to alternate means of handling 2+.

 

It's also worth discussing there are 2-types of 2+ armor: Singles (Heroes, Monsters) and Units. I think we both know that fighting RAS versus 2+ Units is a really really poor idea. When I've been discussing "able to do 2+ Melee" in my earlier replies, I've subconsciously been referring to 2+ Singles--- I apologize for not verbally clearing that up sooner.

 

There's a lot of situational ambiguity that arises when examining your RAS Sgt--- commonly: will he have Prescience Support and/or SangPriest Support? If PF/LC Sgt has Prescience, he becomes your go-to MC killer AND/OR Troop killer (reroll hits&wounds...yum). If he has Sang-Priest support, then Strength9 PF charges are an amazing vehicle and walker killer (yes, 4x Strength9 AP2 attacks > 1 MB, esp with Hull points attrition to consider). And for those who say '40pts too expensive'--- thats 4x Str9 AP2 punches. Equivalent to 4x Lascannon shots. A tad apples-to-oranges, but worth mentioning.

 

 

So best options discussed so far appear to be:

Defensive MEQ Fighter: LC/SS/MB: 40pts

Fragile Killer-Destroyer: LC/PF: 40pts

Lukewarm Approach: LC/MB: 20pts

Challenge-Patsy: Naked or MB: 0 or 5pts

[Jorre]

I love the idea simply for the model building idea alone!! Although the points cost scares me a little!

[DominicJ]

Its not wrong, so much as different

 

i have written a one k list, with four naked assault squads, a jumpy rec and a jumpy medic.

 

Cutting my medic to arm a sergeant is insanity.

 

If you only have two squads, buffed by priests and chaplains and librarians, well, its a different matter, you need to squeeze out every kill.

[Paulochromis]

Hi guys,

 

I'm new to C:BA (owned the codex less than 2 weeks) so maybe I've missed something, but...

when comparing the RAS sergeant's options to, for example the sternguard sergeant's, I see one important difference:

-- sternguard says "may replace xx and/or yy with ..."

-- assault squad says "may replace xx/yy with ..."

I infer from this that the RAS sergeant can only take one of the listed upgrades (melta bombs and combat shield are in separate list).

This would make the LC/PF sergeant illegal (in a RAS).

[Septicon]

I have modelled one with PF/SS for when I play against a friends Deathwing Army, for the sole purpose of trying to coax his TH/SS Belial into a challenge and hopefully splattering him... The way I see it my sergeant has the same chance of surviving as his 100 odd point Belial.

 

Hmmm now how to make him take the bait...

[Drunken Angel]

Picking fights with BA Sgts carrying a Power Fist /Storm Shield combo is a bad idea

 

Sanguinary Priests, if are we comparing whether a BA Sgt will still be there at the end of a combat against an opponent with AP3 weapon S7 or less keep that 5+ FNP in mind.

A BA Sgt with a storm shield has a 66% chance on his Invun then a 33% chance of staying around just on FNP, a storm shield and a hammer/fist combo lets you do that, nothing else does. The Sgt swings back with a S8/S9 response that instagibs most IC's.

Unless the guy picking fights with the Sgt has an instagib weapon that bypasses the SS or high toughness the BA Sgt with a hammer and storm shield looks like a bad idea to challenge.

 

If I was going against a BA RAS squad what would bother me in a challenge would be that SS sgt with a fist/hammer. With prescience being a more common power in support of RAS who really wants to mess with a guy the only thing bypassing FNP means hitting at the same time as the Sgt at I1 but the Sgt is re-rolling hits. The Sgt with a SS does not care about high initiative anything he only cares if he loses that FNP and prescience helps makes up for the loss of attacks.

 

I know it is possible there will be no libby and no priest handy but our army is about synergy, why would you not position those guys nearby when looking at challenges and where they are coming from.

 

I reckon the Thunder and Lightning Sgt is an awesome project and I will put one on the table I am magnetised anyway but for closing out challenge option and general utility storm shield Sgts with S8 S9 weapons are still better.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Hi guys,

 

I'm new to C:BA (owned the codex less than 2 weeks) so maybe I've missed something, but...

when comparing the RAS sergeant's options to, for example the sternguard sergeant's, I see one important difference:

-- sternguard says "may replace xx and/or yy with ..."

-- assault squad says "may replace xx/yy with ..."

I infer from this that the RAS sergeant can only take one of the listed upgrades (melta bombs and combat shield are in separate list).

This would make the LC/PF sergeant illegal (in a RAS).

 

WOW brace for impact!!

 

Well ain't this a can of worms. I literally have never, ever seen this come up. Everyone I know (and the programs 'Army Builder' and 'Battlescribe') take the '/' to implicitly mean and/or.

 

Well, to dive in head-first:

 

Interweb quote: "Avoiding verbosity is a worthy goal. But "and/or" creates more problems than it solves, because it's inherently ambiguous. (It's also considered jargon, not standard English.)"

 

Another legal website: "And/or is considered poor legal drafting and has been much criticized by the courts. It is to the law as the square root of 2 is to mathematicians, an 'irrational' word. It has been called a 'pestilent' and a 'monstrous linguistic abomination'."

 

Unfortunately, google search tells me the useage of "and/or" in legalese is pretty common. Its use in general writing of course means "one or the other or both"

 

 

 

As far as the definition of a lone forward slash [also called a virgule, solidus, or diagonal-- example: word/otherword], things get really muddy. Many websites say it exclusively means 'or' (as you contend). Other sites say it is ambiguous, and requires context connontation.

 

Webquote: "Except for the term 'and/or,' the use of the slash is discouraged between words and abbreviations, as the intent of the solidus is ambiguous. Several possibilities for its meaning exist, among them "and," "or," "and/or," and "plus." We require that more precise, and therefore more meaningful, conjunctions be used."

 

Webquote: "Virgule: Used to separate alternatives (and/or), dates (01/28/99)"

 

 

 

So Paulochromis, you have extremely strong evidence as a base for argument. However, there is just as strong of an argument that BOTH must be replaced in order to take an PW, PF or etc from that menu. (Sergeant can replace pistol/chainsword with the following..... LMAO!!)

 

I honestly can't fathom why ArmyBuilder/Battlescribe and generally all hand-writer lists I know haven't ever brought this up before. It is a highly ambiguous situation--- and we HAVE to go with codex entry as written, it doesn't matter at all that every single other Sergeant in our entire codex uses "bolt pistol and/or chainsword".... the fact is the RAS Sgt entry says "bolt pistol/chainsword"

 

Uggghhhh... brain meltdown.

[DominicJ]

So everyone's pf sergeant has one empty hand?

[knife&fork]

...and terminators doesn't have terminator armor... :wub:

[Drunken Angel]

I think like most people I will just get on with putting 2 seperate weapons/and or items on my RAS Sgts. One in each hand, but I am known to be relaxed on things like that. Where does this omitted and or leave the letter of the wording guys. LMAO :) :lol: :D

[JamesI]

I'm pretty sure the removal of and/or for just / was entirely done to conserve space on the page.

 

GW's own figures have RAS sergeants with 2 upgrades.

[Brynjolf Irontooth]

I'm pretty sure the removal of and/or for just / was entirely done to conserve space on the page.

 

GW's own figures have RAS sergeants with 2 upgrades.

 

I was thinking the same as replacing '/' with 'and/or' would ask for an extra line on that page, and there just isn't any room left. All other units (sternguard, tactical marines, ...) use and/or so I think they just shortened it here.

 

You could argue about it, and normally I rather go with the worst answer for my own army (being sure i never abuse some rule), but I think here you can safely say it counts as and/or.

[Dallas Drake]

It's a formatting error.

 

I also think tooling up a 1 wound model with 40 odd points of gear is too much. Maybe as a one off on one unit for coolness factor. I also think PF & SS is the way to go if you do this, most MCs are I5 & with PF/LC you're dead, plus you don't want to refuse & have the MC stomp all over your squad, you want to at least feed him your Sergeant to stall him a turn whilst you counter charge with DC/Termies. All my Sergeants get Meltabombs & are expected to put their heads in Hive Tyrants' mouths for the good of my army :)

 

- Dallas

[CitadelArmyGuy]

It's a formatting error.

 

I also think tooling up a 1 wound model with 40 odd points of gear is too much. Maybe as a one off on one unit for coolness factor. I also think PF & SS is the way to go if you do this, most MCs are I5 & with PF/LC you're dead, plus you don't want to refuse & have the MC stomp all over your squad, you want to at least feed him your Sergeant to stall him a turn whilst you counter charge with DC/Termies. All my Sergeants get Meltabombs & are expected to put their heads in Hive Tyrants' mouths for the good of my army ;)

 

- Dallas

 

All excellent points! In fact, I'm thinking the PF-LC Sarge matches well if a Sgt in a sister-RAS squad is naked, so their points cancel out. Hahaha no no even I don't think you'd ever want to run ALL RAS Sgts with the LC-PF; in fact, probably just one is all you'd need, maybe 2 at 2000+ pts. That way you have a better chance to match him up against the one real great target he wants to get at.

 

Of course, argument being take 2 Sarges with 20pts instead of 1 @40 and 1@zero. I really don't like this balanced approach though--- JP Units are among the most mobile units in the game, so matching up the Naked dude against a patsy-challenge and matching up the PF-LC versus the target you want is easier than other types of units attempting to do this.

 

PF and SS at 45pts is an awesome idea, I like it even better than Axe-SS. See, lots of people get hung up about ~40pts of gear on a 'fragile' guy like a RAS Sgt, but you must understand that with that loadout he has a really great chance of easily making his points back. One tank, one walker, 3 Marines, any IC, or any MC and bingo--- worth his points.

 

Also, there are 21 Monstrous Creatures in the game. 9 are not Characters. Of the 12 that are Characters, 8 are I5+ (or 2+ Sv & I2+).

 

So PF-LC Sarge can't fight 8 out of 21 MCs in the game (5 of those are Chaos Princes of various types).

 

Ok well I have two games this Saturday scheduled, I'll playtest him in both games and I'll be sure to report my findings.

[Drunken Angel]

It's a formatting error.

 

I also think tooling up a 1 wound model with 40 odd points of gear is too much. Maybe as a one off on one unit for coolness factor. I also think PF & SS is the way to go if you do this, most MCs are I5 & with PF/LC you're dead, plus you don't want to refuse & have the MC stomp all over your squad, you want to at least feed him your Sergeant to stall him a turn whilst you counter charge with DC/Termies. All my Sergeants get Meltabombs & are expected to put their heads in Hive Tyrants' mouths for the good of my army ;)

 

- Dallas

 

All excellent points! In fact, I'm thinking the PF-LC Sarge matches well if a Sgt in a sister-RAS squad is naked, so their points cancel out. Hahaha no no even I don't think you'd ever want to run ALL RAS Sgts with the LC-PF; in fact, probably just one is all you'd need, maybe 2 at 2000+ pts. That way you have a better chance to match him up against the one real great target he wants to get at.

 

Of course, argument being take 2 Sarges with 20pts instead of 1 @40 and 1@zero. I really don't like this balanced approach though--- JP Units are among the most mobile units in the game, so matching up the Naked dude against a patsy-challenge and matching up the PF-LC versus the target you want is easier than other types of units attempting to do this.

 

PF and SS at 45pts is an awesome idea, I like it even better than Axe-SS. See, lots of people get hung up about ~40pts of gear on a 'fragile' guy like a RAS Sgt, but you must understand that with that loadout he has a really great chance of easily making his points back. One tank, one walker, 3 Marines, any IC, or any MC and bingo--- worth his points.

 

Also, there are 21 Monstrous Creatures in the game. 9 are not Characters. Of the 12 that are Characters, 8 are I5+ (or 2+ Sv & I2+).

 

So PF-LC Sarge can't fight 8 out of 21 MCs in the game (5 of those are Chaos Princes of various types).

 

Ok well I have two games this Saturday scheduled, I'll playtest him in both games and I'll be sure to report my findings.

 

I dont look at it as a zero sum equation I always put a SS and either PF or TH on Sgts with FNP now working on everything except instant death that SS Sgt was buffed even further. He is less fragile he gets 2 saves on power weapons not causing instant death where in the past he got only one. If he was worth it in 5th he is absolutley worth it in 6th now.

Taking the storm shield and a fist assures a high chance of mutual destruction on whatever picks on him, you have a priest around right? the priest or the libby is the guy that everyone really wants to kill in a challenge but no one wants to deal with Sgt Bulletcatcher and his fist of death. Anything thats T4 just does not want to take a chance on Sgt Bulletcatcher stepping up.

SS Sgt with shield is even better at end game. Most players try to preserve their high strength low AP weapons you are more likely to encounter lower volume low AP attacks at end game which is exactly when you want that SS 3++. If you are not getting them its because Sarge has already done his job and saved his squad.

The last marine stopping that kill point in my RAS squad always has a 3++! I have had a SS Sgt soak 4-5 AP1 shots at end game, while people are desperately trying to get that last KP they are not shooting anything else.

I guess lightning claw fist sgts are difficult in normal CC but in the wider role Sgt Bulletcatcher with his hammer and storm shield is the enforcer and allround thug I want in there to subdue challengers.

[Dallas Drake]

Yeah; Avatar, Bloodthirtster, Keeper Of Secrets, Swarmlord/Hive Tyrant, Daemon Prince. I play all of them at least once a month so I'm thinking if I ever spend points on a RAS Sergeant it'll be PF&SS.

 

The only issue with PF&SS I see is that against a naked Sergeant or whatever (IG heavy weapon squad killed my 2xLC VV Sergeant last game!) your 3++ is no better than you 3+ so you could still get unlucky & fail your 3+ save. Pretty embarrassing to lose that model to a bayonet :) so I guess we're back to the one wound thing again...

 

- Dallas

[CitadelArmyGuy]

So it seems PF-SS (in general) is a better all-rounder, and provides an even better challenger than 'ol Naked Patsy versus low-Attacks expensive nasties.

 

When you expect a challenge, you want to be either Naked or SS. I agree with all the cases made for that.

 

Now, PF-LC can still be used as a "one-of" in your list. The caveat is that he is largely useable only outside challenges-- so you must have a better challenger attached OR in the same combat. Its worth knowing that Mephiston is a GO here-- he can issue and/or receive challenges if he is part of the same combat.

 

Pretty much, versus most opponents, PF-LC Sarge mostly requires you to have Dante, Astorath, Mephiston, Corbulo (if Rhino/Land Raider RAS) or an Allied-beatstick Challenger in your list, and they run joined or close by to him. Dare I even say...... Sanguinor? ugh... don't like him haha. Honestly Sanguinor would be saved for a list where ALL Sgts should have PF-SS (so his Blessing finds a good recipient).

 

But I want to air a grievance--- Why are BA so bad at challenges? Our lack of artificier armor for our ICs is a truly crippling shortcoming. We are practically forced to take a Named Character or Allies if we want competent challenge winners. I....... hate that. /end whine :)

[Arthanor]

Also, there are 21 Monstrous Creatures in the game. 9 are not Characters. Of the 12 that are Characters, 8 are I5+ (or 2+ Sv & I2+).

 

So PF-LC Sarge can't fight 8 out of 21 MCs in the game (5 of those are Chaos Princes of various types).

 

Ok well I have two games this Saturday scheduled, I'll playtest him in both games and I'll be sure to report my findings.

 

Of the 12 "Monstrous characters" how many have toughness high enough that they can handle the PF&LC sergeant? Can't hurt a wraithlord with the LC even if you bypass his armor save and if you rely on rerolling 6s on T6-7 that's a bit risky (60pts of sergeant to cause.. 1-2 wound?). Add to that all the characters who will have power weapons striking first, or cheaper sergeants with a power weapon for mutual destruction, it seems like a cool build on one squad that you try to aim well but not much more.

 

That being said, I am a big fan of "tag teams" of characters and this guy is quite versatile and would combine well with others.

 

But I want to air a grievance--- Why are BA so bad at challenges? Our lack of artificier armor for our ICs is a truly crippling shortcoming. We are practically forced to take a Named Character or Allies if we want competent challenge winners. I....... hate that. /end whine :)

 

You BAs are lucky having so many characters and options (looks at his crusader squads with no characters and only 2 options: PW or PFist on a 1A model). You get elite priests ICs, elite chaplains and very strong sergeants. You just have to play the challenge game differently, by presenting bad matchups (like the TH/SS sergeant) to buffed characters instead of "out-rocking them". A character who strikes at i1 will think twice before getting involved with many of those, and if he strikes at initiative, just throw a squad of sanguinary guards at him. In a sense, every BA character is a potential hero but it may involve his sacrifice (ex.: lowly TH&SS sergeant taking nasty warlord with him through ID). Knowing your Primarch, that's fitting, isn't it?

 

Gotta leave something to other marines! Wolfes are more about the personal combat prowess and their HQs are better (although their wolfguards are good too.. so who knows?) and Templars... we may have the best HQs but they are our only characters, so they better be! ;)

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Of the 12 "Monstrous characters" how many have toughness high enough that they can handle the PF&LC sergeant? Can't hurt a wraithlord with the LC even if you bypass his armor save and if you rely on rerolling 6s

...

That being said, I am a big fan of "tag teams" of characters and this guy is quite versatile and would combine well with others.

 

PF-LC can fight inflict his points-cost worth of damage onto the following:

 

Tyrannofex, Harpy, Tervigon, Trygon, Mawloc, Carnifex, Canoptek Spider, C'tan Shard (maybe), Talos Pain Engine, Cronos Parasite Engine, Great Unclean One (probably).

 

Lets remove Mycetic Spore from the list of 21 too...lol.

 

That's 11 of 20 total MCs. Good call Arthanor.

 

 

 

For 'Tag Teams', you are quite spot-on. Units are far, far better when they have either TWO or NO characters. If they have two or more, then one should be cheap as possible or survivable as possible.... or a Beatstick.