Building A Better ASM Sgt

[Arthanor]

Counting the "maybe" and "probably" for C'tan and GuO is a bit optimistic but alright. On a side note, I usually consider walkers alongside MC since they both require similar weapons to take on and make similar attacks (although meltaguns are much better against them!) and there are no walker characters (Venerable dread, come on! Maybe Bjorn, he's not listed in the rulebook), so if you combine the number of walkers to the MCs, that would buff the statistic a little bit while still being a reasonable argument. 3-4 S8 attacks on AV12 is not bad, especially with hull points and the improved kraks against walkers. Might kill a dreadnought on the charge, while losing only 1-2 guys.

 

Back to tag teams, even the two sergeants you mentionned, TH&SS and LC&PF go well together. There's always going to be one to swing at the enemy squad and the TH&SS can take PW sergeants better, while the LC can take on ccw or PFist sergents (without SS) and be sure to kill them while having a good chance of surviving. How would two smaller RAS with upgraded sergeants compare to 2 full RAS with "reasonable" sergeants? Even playing MSU might work? 2 5 men RAS with 1 special weapon and upgraded sergeants compared to equivalent points of "normal setup" ?

 

Although finding "the best" RAS sergeant is interesting, finding the best tag teams is what is actually important when army list building. Either to go with a librarian or priest, or just to work together with another sergeant. Maybe a post for "Building better BA Tag Teams?" :)

[Drunken Angel]

As far as challenges are concerned the way I wanted to explain the points of the storm shield power fist sgt is that the storm shield is not just protecting the Sgt.

Untill he is killed Sgt Bulletcatcher has 3++ invun and a S8 fist that stands in front of any challenge to either the priest or the libby near him. From that point of veiw he is cheap, three models using one shield in CC.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

From that point of veiw he is cheap, three models using one shield in CC.

 

Dude, Awesome. I understand your comments now--- I'll be looking into taking a SS Sarge more often now, esp for the RAS that either a Libby or a Priest joins (or both!).

 

@Arthanor, I like that--- 'Tag Teams' (ie optimized Character-pairings) are something I feel melee-oriented armies cannot ignore when list building. This thread is really proving quite informative for me.

[appiah4]

It's a cying shame that the RAS sarge can't take combi weapons or strombolter.

 

C-M/LC or SB/LC would have been the ultimate cheap RAS captain. With added Melta Bomb to taste.

 

As is, I'd probably stick with a Power Sword, Combat Shield. For 20 pts you get a 6++ just in case, and enough PW attacks to deal with most PA TA units.

[Atrix]

It's a cying shame that the RAS sarge can't take combi weapons or strombolter.

 

C-M/LC or SB/LC would have been the ultimate cheap RAS captain. With added Melta Bomb to taste.

 

As is, I'd probably stick with a Power Sword, Combat Shield. For 20 pts you get a 6++ just in case, and enough PW attacks to deal with most PA TA units.

 

Yes it is. But I think it's an even greater shame that Tactical sarges can't take a lightning claw. As pointed out, the combo of combi-weapon and LC is very neat, since a single lightning claw is equal to or better than a power sword + CCW in almost all cases, and I would love to have it on my tacticals.

[Xenith]

Surely MC should be taken out of this equation.

 

MC ususally charge in alone. If they are characters, and you challenge "to avoid them killing the squad", then the rest of your squad does nothing while the serge takes a beating. The squad then gets eaten next turn, probably your turn, and this frees up the MC for your opponent's turn. VS MC, you really want the unit attacking, so having a naked serge that will refuse a challenge may be an ok idea.

 

Next, IC's. Receiving a challenge from them will most likely see your serge dead unless they have a storm sheild. The IC's I will be higher, meaning you may as well have a fist.

[Drunken Angel]

Dealing with MC's in CC is a problem no matter how you look at it, you can always choose to hopefully fail your leadership and leave a Dead Sgt behind, you can still shoot while falling back. Dont consider his death in vain, you get a turn to position shooting units if the MC is hopefully left high and dry after nom noming Sgt Bulletcatcher. The Storm shield shines when used against an T4 opponent with an AP3 weapon that is max S7 if a priest is handy Sgt Bulletcatcher gets 2 saves instead of 1 and a ID reply with the fist. That T4 profile is pretty common amongst opponents.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Next, IC's. Receiving a challenge from them will most likely see your serge dead unless they have a storm sheild. The IC's I will be higher, meaning you may as well have a fist.

 

It's interesting how this thread continually fixates itself about challenges. Is it because challenges are new to 6th ed, and the new toy is the shiniest so we are giving it the most attention? In both my experience and batreps I've read, challenges are often only game-changers with respect to ICs. Now of course, please do not get me wrong, challenges are a major dynamic in melee now-- but when looking at a Sarge in a RAS, are we really going to kit him out with only challenges in mind? (Maybe... actually even 'probably'). I think the fixation about challenges stems from this simple fact:

 

Sgts are garbage at winning most challenges.

 

Whenever we do unit-analysis, the most important factor remains examining weaknesses-- and a RAS Sarge's major weakness is definitely challenges. To mitigate this, we've discussed how a Tag Team of a strong-IC pairs best with a pure-killy Sarge. We've also talked about the flip-side of that coin, where a SS-Sarge and a weak-IC can pair up for good effect too. JP-Libbys and JP-Priests have no Invulns-- so you can almost think of a SS Sarge like a Bodyguard (aside: modeling potential?).

 

Also in my experience, many times if you don't issue a challenge then the defender won't either (unless enemy IC present). This occurs in slightly more than half of all combats (again, in my experience-- please tell me if your experience differs). So thus can we say that target-selection can also mitigate Sarge's challenge-weakness? Blood Angels struggle for challenge-winners without resorting to Named Characters. But what Blood Angels do have that most Codices don't have is the ability to take an amazing character-less melee unit (Death Company) which might attempt to hunt down opposing ICs through torrent (maybe) or alternatively we can stack a unit to the brim with multiple characters and boost the unit's combat power even if a challenge is declined.

 

Through target selection and Tag Teams list-building, you can then build your RAS Sgt with optimized, specialized roles.

 

Bodyguard- Tag Team with weak-IC: Storm Shield (20pts)

Offensive- Tag Team with strong-IC: Power Axe-MB or Power Fist or PF-Lighting Claw (20/25/40)

Lone Challenger- No Tag Team, targets ICs: SS-Lightning Claw or SS-Power Fist (35/45)

Lone Attacker- No Tag Team, targets IC-less units: MB-Lightning Claw (20) [or any Offensive loadouts]

Speed Bump- Tag Team with anything but only buys time: Naked or MB (0/5)

 

So honestly you have to consider what role you have in mind for your RAS Sgt. Rather than simply spamming the same kit-out twice, thrice or more in your list (depending on how many RAS you are actually taking) then you can come out with an optimization solution. Worth mentioning that Lone Challenger is the best all rounder, if you are truly set on taking only generalists. Also note that the only Power weapon up there is a PowerAxe-- because as previously mentioned, mathematically a Lightning Claw generates more kills than a Power Sword (on charge: LC kills 1.25 MEQ, Sword kills 1.00 MEQ)

[Dallas Drake]

Surely MC should be taken out of this equation.

 

MC ususally charge in alone. If they are characters, and you challenge "to avoid them killing the squad", then the rest of your squad does nothing while the serge takes a beating. The squad then gets eaten next turn, probably your turn, and this frees up the MC for your opponent's turn. VS MC, you really want the unit attacking, so having a naked serge that will refuse a challenge may be an ok idea.

 

Next, IC's. Receiving a challenge from them will most likely see your serge dead unless they have a storm sheild. The IC's I will be higher, meaning you may as well have a fist.

 

Really? So, you're not going to counter assault in your turn? Plus if the squad is 9 strong (Sergeant is dead), we might lose 5 or 6 & fail our LD test & lose the Init test, but all 9 in one turn? We have ATSKNF (assuming no Red Thirst), so it's unlikely a MC will kill all 9. It's never happened to me with non fearless full strengh squads (5th ed.) I've only ever seen that against Fearless units when they take No Retreat wounds.

 

I was watching a game last weekend. Tyranids vs. SMs. When the Nids players Hive Tyrant charged the SMs Terminator Squad he made no challenge, the SM player did. When he found out he had to accept & kill ONE model or not fight he was peeved off. Still, unsaved wounds done count towards the assault result.

 

- Dallas

[CitadelArmyGuy]

@Xenith and Dallas Drake: I actually agree with Xenith, but for the wrong reason you both are talking about.

 

MC usually do not charge in alone. A MC that is operating unsupported its usually a sure sign of a bad player-- which means you should beat them regardless. :whistling: MCs generally don't have enough attacks to munch away an entire 10 MEQ by themselves within less than 3 or 4 melees, just as Dallas described. A good player knows this, and will either be part of a multicharge or else charges alone as a fixing force until friendlies arrive. Its the friendlies PLUS the MC which will attempt to wipe the squad.

 

Nota Bene! Not to stray from topic but the same principle goes for using our own Furioso Dreadnoughts with Blood Fists. Also note using a Speed Bump Sgt can also act as a fixing force, again as Dallas described.

 

Edit:

 

When he found out he had to accept & kill ONE model or not fight he was peeved off

Actually units composed of only 1 model cannot refuse challenges. So that goes for Mephiston too.

[Marik]

Actually units composed of only 1 model cannot refuse challenges. So that goes for Mephiston too.

 

 

Mephiston isn't a character so a challenge can not be issued by him or against him.

[knife&fork]

Actually units composed of only 1 model cannot refuse challenges. So that goes for Mephiston too.

 

 

Mephiston isn't a character so a challenge can not be issued by him or against him.

 

inf, character. Not being an independent character has nothing to do with it.

 

 

 

I think we are overlooking one factor in the discussion so far. Precision strikes and shots.

[Bonzi]

I think most people here are missing the KISS solution to this problem. A power weapon and a bolt pistol. Cheap enough not to cry when you throw him away in a delay challenge, threatening enough to force the PF or the LC/PF Sgt into hiding or offer mutually assured destruction for cheaper points. Can he kill IC's with +2 or high T enemies...no, but it's 5th edition thinking that these things are a Sergeants job. You can drop a boatload of points onto you Sgt so they can maybe be the rock to somebodies scissors or you can save the points and use them to buy more units or cheaper weapons that will carve through those tougher opponents.

[Dallas Drake]

When he found out he had to accept & kill ONE model or not fight he was peeved off

Actually units composed of only 1 model cannot refuse challenges. So that goes for Mephiston too.

 

He had a few Tyrant Guard too but I couldn't be bothered mentioning them, good spot though.

 

The point I was trying to make is that most (bad?) players expect their MCs to 'munch squads' a suicidal Sergeant mitigates this for at least one assault phase. Also consider stuff like Broodlords, Archons, Lucius etc. models with high numbers of attacks & high initiative can be 'tied up' for a short time at no real cost.

 

- Dallas

[DominicJ]

CAG

Thats pretty much my view

I personally, only challenge when its fluffy to do so.

 

My sergeants will remain with fists.

Cheap, ish, very good at squishing, well, everything, and holds that instant death card over quite a lot of very expensive stuff

[MadMek83]

CAG

Thats pretty much my view

I personally, only challenge when its fluffy to do so.

 

My sergeants will remain with fists.

Cheap, ish, very good at squishing, well, everything, and holds that instant death card over quite a lot of very expensive stuff

 

True my Srgt with combatshield and powerfist was able to put 2 wounds on marneus calgar and kill honour guard champion in duel (making unbelievablke 6++ save against the power weapon) but next time... I'll add the 15P to squad and upgrade combatshield into stormshield... For my assault sargt's on jump packs: fist and shields are way to go, while in footslogging assault marine srgts go for Power Axes and shields (combat or storm depending on points but usually combatshields) Powerfist is still generally quite good do it all tool: kill marines and infantry, threat tanks, termies, super tough units and IC's.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Oh my lord, just got finished with a 5-game blitz-- played all day, versus Space Wolves every time. I took one PF-LC Sarge in every game. Should I start a new thread giving semi-detailed summary of all 5 battles? (no pics taken at all, so wouldn't be proper batreps....) Or should I just post up my Sarges' performance here? Either way, gotta wait for morning, its 0200hrs (local) here so I'm off to pass out.

[Morticon]

Actually units composed of only 1 model cannot refuse challenges. So that goes for Mephiston too.

 

 

Mephiston isn't a character so a challenge can not be issued by him or against him.

 

Hes listed as "unique" which is later described as being a special character.

In addition the character rules refer to him specifically as a character.

In addition, Warlord traits are compulsory yet only available to HQ characters. If you choose Mephy as your sole HQ, you break this rule.

[Morticon]

Or should I just post up my Sarges' performance here? Either way, gotta wait for morning, its 0200hrs (local) here so I'm off to pass out.

 

I reckon distill the info! And disseminate here!!

[Dallas Drake]

Or should I just post up my Sarges' performance here? Either way, gotta wait for morning, its 0200hrs (local) here so I'm off to pass out.

 

I reckon distill the info! And disseminate here!!

 

I agree. Let us have it CAG. You play more games in a day than I play in a month!

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Alright, distilled information on Sergeant performance only then... which is better, esp since batreps without pics are fairly tedious lol.

 

For all games, my list is very similar is most respects: JP-Libby, JP-Priest, 20 JP-RAS, 2 to 6 MMattbikes depending, Meph or Astorath, and JP or Pod DC (or both)

 

Game 1 (Scouring- 1850pts): Opponent took mech-SW list (2 Razors, 1 LR, 1Pred, 2Dreds). PF-LC Sarge (with Prescience and FC) charged the Land Raider Crusader hoping to use his Strength9 powerfist (meltaguns in the squad knocked 2 HP off but no kill...dang). Glanced 1 HP off, so LR lived to unload WolfLord-Arjac-Bloodclaws. Arjac kills Sarge in counter-charge challenge (I didn't want Arjac swinging on squad, and did not want to sacrifice Libby or Priest). Still won that game handily (7-0 in VPs). Never got to use the LC option of the PF-LC combo (wasted pts).

 

Game 2 (Relic- 2000pts): Opponent nearly same mech-SW again. Crusader holding a 660pt WolfGuard Terminator unit with Lord and Arjac this time. WG deathstar charges turn 2 to kill my MMattbikes (bait... LOL!). I counter-charge like I mean it (spoiler- I beat the WG deathstar easily, took 3 melee turns though): Astorath w/8DC (2Axes), 10RAS (Prescience) with Libby and SangPriest-- only that RAS sarge only had a SS (Bodyguard). Man I wished he had taken a PF-- bc my SS Sarge issued the challenge, so opponent accepted with an AssaultCannon WG. Three melees later they are still whacking each other with no effect, until Axe-Libby does Heroic Intervention and the WG fails SS save. PF-LC Sarge in this game fisted the hell out of a Razor, then mutual killed in a challenge with a FrostSword WG (made his pts back for both weapons). Won the game 3-0 in VPs.

 

Game 3 (Emperors- 1850pts): Opponent tries 3xVindis and single-droppod Lord-Arjac-GHs with razor-mech GH to fill out. Turn2 Vindis all dead-- PF-LC Sarge took one, 10xRAS krak grens took other one, and MMattbikes killed the 3rd. He rolled amazing difficult terrain move AND charge, so Lord-Arjac GH unit countercharged RAS that had Libby-Priest-PF/LC Sarge. PF-LC Sarge accepted the Lord's challenge, PF put one wound (dang SagaofBear!!) and died. Never used LC option, so pts wasted. Interesting note, Mephiston took 3 melees to kill 5xGH with WG. Means Meph got charged and head kicked in by Arjac... but his job was to 'pull' Lord&Arjac away from his obj, so I contested his obj on turn5 and held mine. Victory, 4-2.

 

Game 4 (Crusade- 1500pts): Opponent tries 90 Blood Claws and a Lord. I tabled him on Turn5. PF-LC Sarge has a field day, since no WG means no challenges. I used LC when 'prescienced', and PF otherwise-- definitely made his points back, arguably didn't need both weaps but the +1 attack was really nice. Killed the Lord by simply refusing challenges and dragging him down with DC Axes.

 

Game 5 (Big Guns- 1850pts): Opponent is tired of getting chewed to pieces and losing 4 games in a row. I invite him to write a tailored-list, specifically against my lists I've been using. He comes at me with Heavy Bolter Spam, 33 HBs so 99 shots per turn. Also, 3 AssaultCannon dreadnoughts (1 was Bjorn). He got first turn, and in his first turn he got hot dice whereas I had slightly below average on my armor saves/FnP. I was all but tabled by Turn4. Sarge with PF-LC actually took good swings at Bjorn and killed him through Hull Points (we determined to use 3 HP). During counter-charge by GH, his LC was useful as Prescience was still active-- so even though I lost horribly, that one PF-LC Sarge at least made his points back.

[Arryn]

@CAG: thanks for the write up, so what are your thoughts overall? Im thinking fist/SS...

[daboarder]

I'm a fan of the SS/AXE set up,

 

Reasonably cheap, effective and a danger to anything when combined with FC.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Well my final thoughts overall have been further flavored by playtesting. I've been gearing towards Tournament play because I am "on the market" looking for a Tournament to participate in this coming holiday season (either on in TX in Nov, or in NC in Dec).

 

For tournament play, points are far far too tight to be profligate with Sergeant loadouts. In friendly games, I've been loving my PF/LC Sarge because he's loads of fun, the model looks great, and he inflicts great damage against almost any target (fragile bugger for his points but fun).

 

But for tournament lists I've been playtesting, I've been taking simple PowerAxe on 50% and Lightning Claw on 50% of my RAS-Sarges, with MBs if magically I have 5pts (I stress over each and every little point spent for a Tourny list). A simple PW offers damage with the lowest potential for waste, and you can 'match' targets to apply the LC versus MEQ PF-Sarges and the Axe can aim for Characterless units. On the 'Tag Team Principle' (thanks Arthanor! That's all I can ever think of it now ;)) I run a Sanguinary Priest with Axe and a Librarian with ForceAxe. So when my Sarge has an Axe too, often the opponent will offer challenge and I'll refuse, meaning a WS5 axe won't swing but the Sarge will. If I think I can 'trade pawns' with another Initiative 1 character then I might use the Sarge to accept.

 

I've begun to lean away from the Stormshield, but I'll revisit it to see if I was just having poor luck (or mis-applying it). That 3++ just kept failing the first round, and so Sarge would have been a better 'bodyguard' just having no gear at all (or just taking a PowerAxe and using 'challenge denial' so that He can attack but the IC with him won't).

 

One thing I've noticed is that the 'Saturation Priciple' for characters in melee almost exactly matches the way saturation works for Tanks or Fliers in shooting. For every character over two that you have in a combat, the better and better they saturate the fight and you opponent will lack ability to mitigate their effectiveness. So for me, I'd rather have a Sarge that can inflict damage at a low points cost, then pair him with as many other characters/ICs as possible.

[Arthanor]

That's interesting! and I'm glad the "tag team" principle is sticking for some :tu: It seems to be perfect for BA and their awesome sergeants and priests. Too bad it doesn't work so well with BT (~100 pts/char and no sergeant makes it hard to make a team...).

 

That being said, running two axes (Libby/Priest + sarge) puzzles me. It goes against the principles of the tag team offering you a counter for everything. I guess in exchange for redundancy? But in general, LC sarge + PAxe libby/priest sounds to me like it could do more. Unless you intentionally target 2+ save units but with a RAS, that's crazy.

 

As for storm shields, they are good, on average. On a 1W model or even characters susceptible to ID, I am not particularly keen to use them, especially along with a i1 weapon. Models who benefit the most from them are T5 or EW and 2+W. For a sergeant, I could see SS+LC for a stand alone squad. This guy needs little back up and can take on any enemy squad leaders. Interestingly, since he will be striking first against an unwieldy weapon, the matchup is also not unfavorable against even a TDA&PF wolfguard. On the charge, 19-22% chance of getting a wound through (depending on FC or not), the wolfguard has 27% chance of killing the sergeant, if he gets to strike.Combining the two probabilities mean that the sergeant has a 19-22% chance of killing the WG and 22% chance of dying, they are about equal!

 

The only other SS build would be SS&PF where the intend is to scare enemy ap2 non-EW warlords with mutual annihilation. Something the LC&PF sergeant does too and probably better (1 more attack is better for the chance of killing than the 3++ for surviving since a warlord should have enough attacks to get the kill despite the 3++). I don't think many people field tooled up captains who may risk ID any ways, so that build is less interesting.