Building A Better ASM Sgt

[DominicJ]

"a warlord should have enough attacks to get the kill despite the 3++)."

 

Thats always my worry about SS on a Serge.

Even with it, an enemy hq WILL kill him 90% of the time.

 

A PF serge will die to a TH/SS captain, or Claw Captain, or any captain he is likely to face.

But he has, lets say a one in three, chance of mutual destruction.

 

And I am more than happy to swap three pf serges for your captain.

[Drunken Angel]

Just back from a weekend tourney, The stormshield powerfist Sgt tar pitted a Demon Prince for three turns and slew Dante, he was a standout performer.

Other Highlights were my one wound Librarian going toe to toe in challenge with a terminator chaplain and slaying him with an axe. Note to self, never ever bring an AP 4 maul to a fight against 3+ PA axe models even if you are a terminator.

I am sold on storm shields and power fists or at least a SS and an axe.

[Arthanor]

Indeed, the chance of mutual destruction is what PF (and potentially SS) is for. Note that if the enemy HQ has a weapon that strikes at initiative 5, whatever the gear he is unlikely to strike (unless he's a super lucky sergeant like Dunken Angel's against the demon prince). If the enemy strikes at initiative, just send something with a 2+ save and laugh. He's not inflicting instant death and he's not likely to go through the armor save either. (Barring new ap2 demon weapons that strike at initiative, against those and MCs.. I guess TH&SS terminators without characters are the way to go)

 

I would never field SS and axe. SS&PF is scary because you can ID enemy HQs, essentially trading your (expensive) sergeant for a (much more expensive) HQ. I'm sure you did not inflict 3 separate wounds on Dante. The axe is good for damage output on single wound models paired with a pistol, it is not a good weapon for challenges against T4 HQs, the fist is much better, especially with a storm shield where it does not even lose attacks.

 

The challenge highlights something to note about weapons: a S6 power maul against 3+ save is worse than a S5 power axe against 4++ save. But only slightly worse (28% for the mace to inflict an unsaved wound on a hit versus 33% for the axe) and it strikes at initiative. Given that the librarian had 1 wound left, he was lucky!

[Demoulius]

Has anyone considered a power spear on a RAS sgt? Keep him near a priest and hes S6 AP3, hitting on initiative on the charge :lol: since you want to do as much damage as possible on the charge anyway that might be a possible route to go?

 

The only other weapons capable of that destruction are the power axe and powerfist, who both hit at I1. Although they both keep their interesting bonuses till after the charge I generally find that the charge is often the most important point of combat. It makes or breaks how later parts of the combat looks. If you can kill 3-4 MEQ on the charge (with the reroll from precience not hard to do I think) then thats alot of attacks your not getting next turn. In short turn it into a battle off attrition.

 

If you want to have a "challenge spunge" I suggest just giving him that SS + chainsword. Cheapest option and with FnP ontop of that 3++ he might stay around alot longer then you think ;) and the model will most likely look pretty awesome as well :tu:

[Arthanor]

There are only a few things that can happen to a sergeant, assuming you charge:

 

Not challenged: The sergeant will survive this round, an axe has the same output as the spear, plus it is S5 ap2 in later rounds. Axe wins.

Challenged by a squad leader: Sergeant may very well die, striking at initiative and being ap3 is important: Lance wins, but not by that much. Sword or LC hold up better off the charge and are usually chosen.

Challenged by an IC: Sergeant will probably die. Power fist if opponent is unwieldy is good, otherwise it does not matter. The sergeant is probably killed before he gets to strike.

 

That being said, on a model with jump pack and wings with a power lance can look awesome. It would make a great diorama inspired from Michael and the dragon/demon. Game-wise, not so good, unless you pack a squad with many lances and add Dante to them :D

[Drunken Angel]

The thing about the Sgt was that he challenged and held the Prince for 3 turns till he died, enough time for me to react and reposition. The same Sgt walked up to Dante and challenged him removing Dante from the assault and the remaining SG faltered and died, from axes. The Sgt was always able to take out 1-3 models in CC and weather some nasty shooting. In another game he would have been the model to take the avatars charge for another stalling challenge. I found out what Death Company with 4++ invuns from lore can do to avatars. The axe is good but its a option when points are tight a fist is very scary for every T4 model without eternal warrior. Yes my libby was lucky but the difference was two fold, first axes and mauls are not strong enough to deny FNP on a blood angel. Second the libbys axe was AP2 and the chaplain had only his 4++ to fall back on the libby had both his 3+ and 5+ FNP. Power fists go through all that and the shield is the only way to ensure that the Sgt may be there to hit back on IC charges and challenges. He may not live but there is a strong chance the shield will allow him and thats enough to make people think twice with slay the warlord points on the line. I will always take a PF/SS Sgt in at least one squad and position him for challenges usually with my priest or libby in the same squad.

[SamaNagol]

45/50pts for Storm Shield + Fist/Hammer is just too much to stomach in 1750 or less games

[Sir Blayse]

I'm starting to think the SS/Axe combo might be the best way to go for RAS sgt now. Of course you shouldn't really be pitting him against an enemy HQ unless your planning to beat the enemy squad with your own HQ and don't want to risk losing him in the challenge. In most games I'm only having to risk one save on the shield from a PF. Enemy with axe is worse, since you will probably have to make two saves. The ten point discount over the fist is another bonus, since you can put that towards other upgrades somewhere else. I'm looking at running two SS/Axe sgts and two PF/IP sgts. ( those PF might get changed to axes later, but for now the PF helps with T4, multi-wounds like Tyranid Warriors and enemy vehicles... if I go with Axe, then I will buy Meltabombs for anti-armor.) I think the difference in points helps with the fact that the guy is basically a suicide unit for your squad. Since you know he is going to face death pretty much every game, then you might want those extra points.

[Demoulius]

There are only a few things that can happen to a sergeant, assuming you charge:

 

Not challenged: The sergeant will survive this round, an axe has the same output as the spear, plus it is S5 ap2 in later rounds. Axe wins.

Challenged by a squad leader: Sergeant may very well die, striking at initiative and being ap3 is important: Lance wins, but not by that much. Sword or LC hold up better off the charge and are usually chosen.

Challenged by an IC: Sergeant will probably die. Power fist if opponent is unwieldy is good, otherwise it does not matter. The sergeant is probably killed before he gets to strike.

 

That being said, on a model with jump pack and wings with a power lance can look awesome. It would make a great diorama inspired from Michael and the dragon/demon. Game-wise, not so good, unless you pack a squad with many lances and add Dante to them :P

If your only concerned about challenges (and theres a difference between IC's or MC's challengin) then initiative plays a big part in the equation as well imho... Alot of MC's are T6 3+ save and its highly unlikely your sargeant will survive the first to begin with thus its best to do as much damage as possible as you wont be be hitting at later turns anyway (well, most likely anyway...)

 

Take a Carnifex for example. WS3, T6, I1 (possibly I3 if hes charging, but thats not what were discussing here...), S9 attack with (depending on weapons) reroll to hit. You hit him on a 3+, and with the spear wound him on a 4+. If all your hits hit AND wound hes dead as he only has 4 wounds (IIRC) Axe and Spear are indeed indentical in their performance in this scenario. Against alot of other MC's or IC's your however hitting last no matter what weapon you take since they have higher I compared to our sargeant or have a weapon that lowers our (like lashwhip on a Nid prime or Hive Tyrant) in those cases its unlikely that you wil survive the first round of a challenge (not impossibe mind) so in that case its again a (somewhat) tie...

 

The poweraxe has AP2 though which can flip alot of situations in its favor. Against 2+ saves the axe will simply be king, no contest compared to the other weapons. Against terminator armoured targets its very unlikely that you will be hitting before they are to begin with (possible exception beeing powersword/lightning clawed termy sargeants) and the lack of AP would be harmfull then hitting at I would be helpfull. Against I5+ IC's and MC's you surviving to hit them might be down to alot of luck with FnP rolls/SS rolls (or badluck on part of your opponent) as we simply dont have much staying power on our sargeants..

 

I still think that a powerspear/lance is far from useless though. Hunting a Carnifex (like I used as an example above) or other T6 3+ save MC could be pretty usefull and while PF's and PA's can do that as well (but at I1) I think the prospect of hitting at initiative isent something to ignore lightly...

 

Come to think of it, the powermaul hits at initiative to (but sadly is AP4) and gets +2S.... Did anyone consider using one on a sargeant? While not as usefull as the other powerweapons im interested to see if people saw a use for them... Tbh the only place id use them are on my chappies who are stuck with them to begin with :) most things that have a 4+ save we dont have trouble wounding to begin with...

 

On another note, the more I think about the SS/chainsword sarg the more im taking a liking to it :D Im fairly often running a small (5-6 man) assault squad in a razorback. Specialy in such a small squad it could be helpfull! use grenade to attack MC's and use the SS to hang around for far to long :devil:

[SamaNagol]

If a MC challenges your Sergeant unless the moons and stars align he is dead regardless of what saves he has. Most likely true with a heroic level IC as well.

 

There comes a point where you have to accept this fact and just try and get the most mileage you can out of him. Cos if you spend 40+pts on his wargear and he still dies first round of combat that is an utter waste. Whereas just giving them a LC so they can kill rank and file models or other Sergeants is beneficial.

 

It is entirely dependent on whether you will have a 2nd character in the unit such as a Priest or HQ. That's why I give units I know will have Priests in a Sergeant with a LC and the Priest gets the Fist. Sergeant always accepts the challenge and the Priest swings a WS5 2A fist at the Unit at I1 step from the safety of the back of the assault.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

So I just did a bit of testing in Vassal. I pitted a PF/SS Sergeant vs. a Captain/Chaos Lord level character (ie; WS>4 S&T4 A3 W3) with Power Sword and another CCW. I assumed that the Sergeant got the charge and that he had FNP available because if he doesn't have both the charge and FNP you're doing it wrong. I also made a mistake and gave the opponent a 3++, despite giving him two CCWs and the +1A for such. Bear that in mind. I ran it ten times. Yes, I know that ten isn't really a good enough sample but I CBA to do it any more.

 

Anyway, the Sergeant died three times before swinging taking one unsaved wound each time. He survived the other seven times and IDed the opponent three times of those seven. Not too shabby.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Did it again, this time PF/SS Sergeant vs. TH/SS Captain, correcting the extra A mistake from above. Sergeant survived five times out of ten, mutually destroyed Captain once, beat Captain once and went into a second round of combat four times.

[JamesI]

Thanks Res. Not a bad sample, though as you said 10 is too few to be too meaningful.

 

I would expect to lose the sergeant in that fight if it happened, but I would be hoping for the mutual destruction.

[Arthanor]

In terms of odds, it is very close between the sergeant and the captain. If the sergeant charges, all that the captain has going for him is his higher WS. Off the charge is in brackets.

 

Sergeant: 3(2) attacks * 1/2 to hit * 5/6 to wound * 1/3 to fail save = ~42% (28%) to kill

Captain: 3 attacks * 2/3 to hit * 5/6 to wound * 1/3 to fail save = ~56% to kill

 

Combining the two probabilities we get:

23(15)% chance of mutual annihilation

19(12)% chance of sergeant killing captain and surviving

32(40)% chance of captain killing sergeant and surviving

26(32)% chance of both surviving

 

It's not that bad of a showing for the sergeant, who should cost a fair bit less than the captain. Of course, nobody really should field that captain as there are much better options (with EW, T5 or librarians). That challenge should also not happen, your opponent should feed the "captain wannabe" a sergeant who can strike at i4 to hopefully kill him before he strikes. Still, if you are fielding only librarians and priests, having one such sergeant may be useful as a challenge deterrent.

[SamaNagol]

Why would the Captain/Lord not be swinging a weapon utilising his I5? And killing you before you get to swing anything.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Why would the Captain/Lord not be swinging a weapon utilising his I5?

 

He was the first time I ran it.

[Arthanor]

Why would the Captain/Lord not be swinging a weapon utilising his I5? And killing you before you get to swing anything.

Because he was built with the idea of being S8 ap2 to kill other characters? Any ways, I already mentioned that it is not that good a build if you can't get EW and captains are not that good of an HQ to begin with. A "wolverine" captain with lightning claw and chainfist would be more entertaining. Can take out 3+/3++ sergeants at i5 with the weight of wounds, kill grunts before they strike and about even odds with a TH&SS character in most cases, given the extra attack versus "only" a 4++.

[appiah4]

Why would the Captain/Lord not be swinging a weapon utilising his I5? And killing you before you get to swing anything.

 

Because he rides a Bike and wields a Thunder Hammer.

 

His name is Captain Joey DeMaio and he is the Thunder on Wheels!

[nevaenuffbass]

Reading through this forum inspired me to make some comments.

 

In my opinion the IDEAL RAS SGT carries 2 plasma pistols. His number one gunner carries a plasmagun and another guy in the squad carries krak grenades (well duh).

 

The reasoning - you can't assault out of a razor on the turn you disembark. Even if it doesn't move. If it gets destroyed, and you are forced to disembark, you still can't assault.

 

Hence, giving the RAS SGT assault weapons makes him expensive for a bunch of stuff you probably won't use. Do the gunslinger option and you have 5 high strength, 4 low AP shots coming out of a the unit. Support them with a jumper SGT with whatever combo takes your fancy.

 

Just my 2c.

[appiah4]

Support them with a jumper SGT with whatever combo takes your fancy.

 

Just my 2c.

 

You just gave the unit a 150pt+ wargear upgrade because a 15pt upgrade doesn't work as well as it used to. Not particularly efficient or clever.

 

A couple of points:

1. Just because you won't be able to use a wargear on the turn you disembark doesn't mean it won't be useful later on.

2. Just because you won't assault on the turn you disembark doesn't mean you won't assault later on.

3. Just because a unit works differently doesn't mean it's now useless.

 

My 2c: If you disembarked near a unit that will fold you on their turn, whether through shooting or assault, this was not a right target for the unit. You couldn't expect to throw RAS into every unit and hope them to perform in 5th edition and this has not changed. Target selection criteria changed and you have to live with it. Use your RAS to hit things they can withstand one round of shooting or counterassault from. Use your RAS where they can shoot at targets of opportunity (armor) when they disembark. Don't use your RAS to disembark in front of genestealers.

 

As for what you propose, I'd rather not use RAS like this than use them at all. If I'm supporting a scoring unit with a scoring unit, that means I'm doing something wrong. If I want low AP high S firepower like this, I'd take 5 Sternguard and use them to support my jumping RAS, not the other way around.

[knife&fork]

If I want low AP high S firepower like this, I'd take 5 Sternguard and use them to support my jumping RAS, not the other way around.

 

Giving a squad good firepower isn't a bad thing in itself. People get way too hung up on the "assault" part of assault squad when they should consider trading bolter shots for better mobility. The double plasmagun jump squad for example makes for a nice and mobile scoring unit. Plasma pistols on the sarge takes the cost a bit over the top imho but I've only tried that combo twice.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

I agree PG and 2xPP in a LC/TLPG Razorback is not bad on paper; At 200pts it certainly defines glass cannon! lol ---- my only concern is it follows MSU doctrine. I myself have been drifting further and further away from MSU, not because it isn't effective, but because I don't prefer the playstyle.

[nevaenuffbass]

Support them with a jumper SGT with whatever combo takes your fancy.

 

Just my 2c.

 

You just gave the unit a 150pt+ wargear upgrade because a 15pt upgrade doesn't work as well as it used to. Not particularly efficient or clever.

 

A couple of points:

1. Just because you won't be able to use a wargear on the turn you disembark doesn't mean it won't be useful later on.

2. Just because you won't assault on the turn you disembark doesn't mean you won't assault later on.

3. Just because a unit works differently doesn't mean it's now useless.

 

My 2c: If you disembarked near a unit that will fold you on their turn, whether through shooting or assault, this was not a right target for the unit. You couldn't expect to throw RAS into every unit and hope them to perform in 5th edition and this has not changed. Target selection criteria changed and you have to live with it. Use your RAS to hit things they can withstand one round of shooting or counterassault from. Use your RAS where they can shoot at targets of opportunity (armor) when they disembark. Don't use your RAS to disembark in front of genestealers.

 

As for what you propose, I'd rather not use RAS like this than use them at all. If I'm supporting a scoring unit with a scoring unit, that means I'm doing something wrong. If I want low AP high S firepower like this, I'd take 5 Sternguard and use them to support my jumping RAS, not the other way around.

 

 

Yeah fair enough, I can see most of your points.

 

I beg to differ though. I rate my RAS multi-plasma squads. They are 200pts a pop, which yes, is hefty, but only a few more points than a meltagun / powerfist RAS, and a whole lot cheaper than the sternguard unit you are talking about.

By suporting one assault unit with another, both can survive. At least that is the strategy I am currently using. I have a lot of experience playing mechanised eldar, and you tend to need to co-ordinate disembarks with them, and i am finding that this works with the marines too. Many units stand up a little to well to an assault for me, so softening them up with 6 plasma shots (2 from the razor) is pretty effective, or using 2 RAS at once for 12 shots can leave very little of the unit to counter attack with.

 

Your way of using RAS works with the multiplas line up. 4 x S7 is pretty good against light - med armour, also in 6th I am seeing more and more elite infantry.

 

I acknowledge the comments about MSU. The multiplas is totally MSU. But isn't RAS MSU?

[CitadelArmyGuy]

I acknowledge the comments about MSU. The multiplas is totally MSU. But isn't RAS MSU?

 

AH! I see now that my old acronyms have gotten me in trouble. I really must stop using RAS.

 

You see, RAS = Regular Assault Squad (in our last codex version, there was RAS and VAS for Veteran Assault Squad).

 

I can see you took it to mean 'Razorback Assault Squad.' lol not your fault mate, I just need to stop using the old acronym.

[nevaenuffbass]

I acknowledge the comments about MSU. The multiplas is totally MSU. But isn't RAS MSU?

 

AH! I see now that my old acronyms have gotten me in trouble. I really must stop using RAS.

 

You see, RAS = Regular Assault Squad (in our last codex version, there was RAS and VAS for Veteran Assault Squad).

 

I can see you took it to mean 'Razorback Assault Squad.' lol not your fault mate, I just need to stop using the old acronym.

 

 

Everything makes so much more sense now. I did indeed think that RAS = razorback assault squad.