How the mighty hath fallen

[adamv6]

I was reading Vash's analysis of our army options on the thread about being a GK new starter (thread here), and, couldn't help but pick up on 'In the previous edition these where for most Grey knight players a "must have"'

 

My own experience of using the Psi-rifle in 6th has not been great.

• Firsty, AV12 is pretty easy to glance for most armies. 3 hull points don't last long at all.
  
• Second, AV12 is easy to penetrate for most armies. Considering alot of ST8 or above weaponry is AP2 or higher, the dread becomes dust really easily
  
• Thirdly, (and most costly IMHO), it gives your opponent a really easy victory point (on Big Guns Never Tire, 2 easy points) if they go first. Each time my opponent has gone first, my Dread hasn't seen my shooting phase ;)
  

 

The role of the Psyrifle in my army is heavy support, to take out AV11 > 13 at a distance. Dreadnoughts were not given the skyfire rule (which I don't understand why not, you would think a dreadnought would have advanced targeting systems) so are no use against flyers, which on average are only AV11 anyway.

 

What did strike me as a simple solution to the problem was the following;

 

Instead of deploying the Dreadnought 1st turn, put it in reserve and deliver it using a Stormraven and the Shadow Sky rules. OK, you have to roll for deepstrike, but, he can still shoot that turn.

 

What are your opinions on Dreadnoughts in 6th? Is deployment from reserves a must with Dreadnoughts now?

[Toasterfree]

i think the dreads still have a place. av12 isnt that hard to crack, on the same side it can be fairly easy to crack. the only ap2 s8 stuff i can think of is short range (24") when compared to it so its relatively safe from that. just not from the s9 ap2 las cannons. deployed CORRECTLY on turn 1 you can hide it behind something and it not be shot at, you can hide it behind your vehicles and give it a cover save, or take a techmarine or two and repair lost weapons and hull points.

[thade]

I see Dreadnoughts being used in city battles very effectively...on tables where there's a LOT of vertical cover and rough terrain (that would stick up normal vehicles). But then, I saw the same thing last edition too...either as long ranged firing platforms or as back-alley flankers (on cluttered maps with lots of vehicle cover).

 

Cover is easier to get in this edition now too (only needing 25%) and - honestly - the only dread I had that would endure more than three hits to the face was my Venerable from my old vanilla marines force. I feel the same way about Rhinos...if a Rhino took three hits, it was immobile and had no guns on it, best case. Not much has changed, from my perspective. :blink:

[RedemptionNL]

Yeah, Dreadnoughts still work fine in my experience. Their ability to stay out of range of a lot of weapons and their small frame which makes it easy to get cover saves or hide out of LOS makes them durable enough. Only the Venerable Dreadnought took a big in survivability.

[adamv6]

There is alot of ST8 and above weaponry with at least 36" range. Lances are 36". Heavy Gauss is ST9 and 36". Prism Cannons are 60".

 

On a standard 6x4 ft playing board, there should be 18 pieces of cover minimum, but there is nothing saying there will be any of them that provide you enough cover in your deployment zone.

[thade]

There is alot of ST8 and above weaponry with at least 36" range. Lances are 36". Heavy Gauss is ST9 and 36". Prism Cannons are 60".

 

On a standard 6x4 ft playing board, there should be 18 pieces of cover minimum, but there is nothing saying there will be any of them that provide you enough cover in your deployment zone.

The take-away here, for me, is that Dreads aren't well-suited for all-comers lists. Honestly that's the way I saw them before too, at least in my marine army. If there's not substantial cover for them, better to take infantry or tanks. If there is a LOT of terrain and sufficient cover, well they negotiate difficult terrain like infantry (instead of potentially getting stuck on it like tanks) and can fire heavy weapons on the move and charge at need...whereas infantry would be snap-firing their heavy weapons and vehicles can't dive into melee. :wub:

[adamv6]

The take-away here, for me, is that Dreads aren't well-suited for all-comers lists.

 

Thade, I think that is a really valid point.

 

I am trying to build a list for a campaign weekend and each time I test it the Dreadnought is a major weakness. I am going to try deploying it via a Stormraven, and see whether I can negate some of the problems I have with it being on the table from T1.

[thade]

Presenting your opponent with other targets are good ways of keeping that Dread up to do it's job; also consider what that Dread's job is. (If it's just in the list to be cool, that's okay...but don't sweat it if it bites it, in that case.)

 

NDKs and/or Interceptors can shunt to intervene/support/draw-fire when your Storm Raven comes in to drop off it's cargo, your PAGK can deploy or emerge from cover and really lay down fire, etc. I see every model in my list being used to force choices on my opponent. The harder those choices are for them to make, the better it is for me. Better still if almost every choice is a "bad one" for them...they shoot down the SR, my NDKs tear them apart. They shoot down the NDKs, the SR's cargo arrives and picks up the slack. If they take it all down, well, that's the dice for you. Can't really blame my list for dumb luck there.

[worloch]

I find the opposite to be true - Dreads are an excellent all-comers list addition, and the Psyfleman is still a worthy addition in most lists.

 

6th edition has put a hurt on vehicles, so Dreads have gone down in survivability from 5th, but not to the point of worthlessness.

 

 

AV 12 is actually one of my favorite AV's. High enough to flat out ignore small arms fire, requiring dedicated AT weaponry to be used, but denying your opponent the advantage of Lance weapons, all while not paying for the higher AV levels. On a Dread, that means that most infantry need dedicated AT CC weaponry as well, since they use their frontal AV 12 and not their rear AV 10 (at least until they are Immobilized).

 

 

Why I like Dreads:

 

1) Can move and still fire two ranged weapons at no penalty - Pop out from behind cover, advance towards CC while laying down fire, etc. It works well

2) Moves like Infantry (can run, difficult terrain tests, etc) - No 1/6 chance to immobilize yourself moving through a forest or ruin for cover.

3) Can fight in Assaults - Most vehicles will get torn up in assault in 6th, but Dreads still have a good chance to lay some smack down

4) Good upgrades - Dreads can take on a variety of roles via their upgrades. From long range fire support to assault, they have options to accomplish their mission.

5) Not too expensive - generally speaking, I find them effective for their point cost

 

 

The psyfleman in particular has been a popular choice for GK's because it fills a role in the army that few other units can, for a relatively low cost. 4 TL'ed St 8 Ap 4 shots on the move at 48" range has been the downfall of many an armies lynchpin units. Taking out Transports, glancing Tanks to death, insta-killing To 4 or less infantry, forcing saves on MC's ... heck I even charge my in to CC to hold up enemy units, if those units haven't got proper AT CC weapons (lots of xenos units don't).

 

 

As Thade said, you do have to construct your list to consider what the Dread is doing, and how the rest of your army is supporting him doing it. Even taking a couple of Rhinos to provide cover for your Dreads is a consideration. Taking more than one works wonders, providing redundancy, multiple targets, and the ability to pour more firepower downrange at multiple targets.

 

If you're taking a single Dread, and not presenting your opponent with other dangerous targets to point his AT weaponry at, the Dread is toast. 2 Dreads, 2 Razorbacks, and perhaps a Landraider or Stormraven looking to deliver a Purifier squad, is a lot harder for your opponent to react to.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

PsyDreads are still a great unit, but they may be less required depending on Allies (which we can't discuss here at all).

 

I still take mine, but usually a counterpart to my Vindicare.

[Bartali]

Psyfile Dreads are still fine. You should be having cover from turn 1. Pretty much anything gives them cover now, Rhinos, Razorback, Terminators etc

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Venerable class is a waste of points now that it has no effect versus glancing hits. It's pretty easy to score three glances for a lot of armies versus AV12. Psyflemen are still very cheap pointswise for what they can do though so they still have a place but they aren't what they were in 40k5. I would much rather field a Vindicare now... He can go to ground in cover for a 2++ and the 4d6 rending shot can easily pop most any tank.

 

G :(

[adamv6]

Well, played with my psirifle yesterday, testing deployment by Storm Raven.

 

Worked a treat :)

 

Most of scenery I keep playing on it woodland, so 5+ cover is not reliable as cover.