Allies and Transports

[PewPew]

So here's a discussion i had earlier today. If there is an IC joining an allied unit (which he is allowed as battle brother) and that unit embarks in its dedicated transport, can the IC join, as he becomes part of that unit "for ALL rules purposes", BRB6. I think this is a higly ambiguous topic and I can understand where opposite opinions may come from, but just saying "battle brother cannot embark in allied transports" doesn't cut it here, as i would argue, that they became part of the unit due to IC special rules (see page 39).

 

Anyway, attached you will find an rather exhaustive explanation. I'd be happy about any input etc. Please, discuss:

 

There is a rule, that states, that an IC becomes part of an unit for all purposes unless stated otherwise in the IC rules. As it is, there is nothing in the IC special rules that says anything about an IC not counting as part of an allied unit with regard to transports, thus, the IC still counts as part of the unit (even when that unit is only an allied unit) when it comes down to transport possibilities. So as a part of that unit (which is able to board its own transports) the IC too can board an allied transport.

So in short: There is a rule that says IC becomes part of any unit they are allowed to join (A is part of . Allied units can board allied transports (B a is part of C). Thus, by extension the IC can board the transport. (A is part of C). The rule about battle brothers not allowed to enter transports, imo, does not apply here anymore, as the IC rule overrules this. Your argument would apply if the IC was still a battle brother, but as stated, due to the rule that literally says that. See BRB6, page 39, IC box, last sentence in the first column.

 

But I grant you, this rule definitely is ambiguous ( I guess the IC rules have been written before the Ally section had been finished, resulting in vagueness, that is hard to remove from such complex systems as the rules for 40k). I would gladly have this discussion in another thread with more input and more opinions as well as a timely clarification by GW. I shall move this to the rule discussion forum.

[Seahawk]

"Not even Battle Brothers can embark in allied transport vehicles." (p.112)

 

"...counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes" (p.39)

 

I'd say he's allowed onboard.

[Seneschal of the Seventh]

I would argue that the BB is still not allowed in the transport. I'll use an analogue to attempt to make my point.

 

An IC in terminator armor joins a unit of tactical marines who are trying to embark on their dedicated Rhino. He is "part of the unit for all rules purposes," but he still cannot boad the transport, because he has another rule stating that he cannot (in this case, the rule that terminator models may not board Rhinos and Razorbacks). Simply being a member of a unit is not sufficient to allow embarkation in this scenario.

 

I would argue that the above logic could be applied to a BB ally joined to a similar unit. He may be a "part of the unit," but it's not unit rules preventing him from embarking, it's the Battle-Brother restriction, which is not modified by any rules pertaining to ICs and units.

[stephane4985]

I would argue that the BB is still not allowed in the transport. I'll use an analogue to attempt to make my point.

 

An IC in terminator armor joins a unit of tactical marines who are trying to embark on their dedicated Rhino. He is "part of the unit for all rules purposes," but he still cannot boad the transport, because he has another rule stating that he cannot (in this case, the rule that terminator models may not board Rhinos and Razorbacks). Simply being a member of a unit is not sufficient to allow embarkation in this scenario.

 

I would argue that the above logic could be applied to a BB ally joined to a similar unit. He may be a "part of the unit," but it's not unit rules preventing him from embarking, it's the Battle-Brother restriction, which is not modified by any rules pertaining to ICs and units.

 

Seems logical, I agree with that.

[DarkGuard]

I agree with Grey Paladin here. The IC is still an allied unit, and do falls under that restriction. It's certainly something I think will be FAQed against.

[PewPew]

I would argue that the BB is still not allowed in the transport. I'll use an analogue to attempt to make my point.

 

An IC in terminator armor joins a unit of tactical marines who are trying to embark on their dedicated Rhino. He is "part of the unit for all rules purposes," but he still cannot boad the transport, because he has another rule stating that he cannot (in this case, the rule that terminator models may not board Rhinos and Razorbacks). Simply being a member of a unit is not sufficient to allow embarkation in this scenario.

 

I would argue that the above logic could be applied to a BB ally joined to a similar unit. He may be a "part of the unit," but it's not unit rules preventing him from embarking, it's the Battle-Brother restriction, which is not modified by any rules pertaining to ICs and units.

 

That is an interesting view and a well argued point. Alas, the terminator armor is part of the model/IC, by joining the unit the status/condition of the armor does obviously not change.

An IC though, when joining another squad, takes up all properties of that squad as stated in the IC special rules (see above). On could argue, that it doesn't, that it works just like the terminator armor example. But this is mere interpretation.

 

I have a somewhat vulgar example to support my point:

Assume you and some aquaintances of you want to go to the mall and you plan on taking your car. Then you realize one of them is to fat to fit in your car, obviously, he can not join you and the others and has to stay behind.

Now assume, you and your aquaintances want to go to the mall but you still have to do the dishes. Your aquiantance, whom you do not know all that well, suggests to drive to the mall all by himself and to return with the stuff you needed. Since you are the suspicious type you have to decline him politely but assure him that you definitely will take him to the mall as soon as you have finished doing the disches.

Now do you see my point (here's a clue: the fat guy wears a terminator armor and the other guy is a battle broter) ;)

My point proper is: apply logic, what would make sense. There is a reason why not all astartes codizes have storm ravens, because some UNITs are not meant to arrive by storm ravens. But with battle brothers your IC can join a unit, that is allowed to use one of these transports and might just hitch a ride.

Also consider the reason for the battle brother transport rule: I guess GW didn't want armies to buy the cheaper, faster, sturdier or in whatever way fancier transport of their allies, which might have excessive effects on gameplay (imagine space marines pouring out of a Eldar transports etc.)

 

I argue (as does the Rulebook itself) to apply common sense when both the rules and logical deduction do not provide a non-ambiguous result.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

How about this?

 

IC become part of the unit for all intents and purposes. IC rules are basic rules (no, not really, but bear with me).

 

BB cannot embark on allied transports. Allies are advanced rules.

 

If there is conflict (there is), then the advanced rules overrule the basic rules.

 

My 2 cents Imperial.

 

EDIT: I feel like elaborating.

 

There is an obvious conflict between the rules here. IC can join units, and become part of said unit for all intents and purposes. This is even spelled out in the Allies rules. BBs can be joined by Allied ICs. However, further down the same page it says that BBs cannot embark on Allied transports. The way I see it is that the later exception overrules the earlier statement, the same way that Jump rules modify and change the basic rules for Infantry.

[PewPew]

Good point, too.

So, it is interesting to see, that such a broad consensus against joining battle brother's transports has manifested itself. All suported by good reasoning. Though i wish it woud be otherwise and though the rules are def not clear on this subject, i am convinced (for now until GW hopefully addresses this in a FAQ) and stay corrected.

cheers for all the great input.

[Toasterfree]

i see it clear as day. there is no question to ask. its not the unit rules that is preventing him from joining, its the allies rules.

 

think of it this way, each opertaion that you do during a turn has certain checks. IE unit A wants to shoot, is unit A pinned/fleeing/running in a circle chasing a snotling? No Unit A can shoot as normal. Unit B wants to shoot, is unit B pinned/fleeing/running in a circle chasing a snotling? Yes (to at least 1) Unit B can only snap fire.

 

In this case the IC has to check his operations. IC wants to embark on transport. Is the IC a BB quality ally? yes. Is the IC part of the unit? yes. Can BB allies embark on transports? no. Sorry Billy, but for 3 of 3 needed to jump in our ride to go to the SoB camp to pick up some honnies, you miss out on one.

[dswanick]

I would argue that the BB is still not allowed in the transport. I'll use an analogue to attempt to make my point.

 

An IC in terminator armor joins a unit of tactical marines who are trying to embark on their dedicated Rhino. He is "part of the unit for all rules purposes," but he still cannot boad the transport, because he has another rule stating that he cannot (in this case, the rule that terminator models may not board Rhinos and Razorbacks). Simply being a member of a unit is not sufficient to allow embarkation in this scenario.

I agree with this assessment. Further, the IC is a member of the unit for all purposes and also the squad is part of the unit for all purposes - reciprocity. An IC is TDA prevents a non-TDA unit from embarking in a Rhino because of the TDA restriction and a TDA squad prevents a non-TDA IC from embarking in a Rhino - while joined. Equally an Allied IC prevents a Primary unit from embarking in a Transport because of the Allied restriction and an Allied unit prevents a Primary IC from embarking in a unit - while joined.

[Toasterfree]

You still have to check if conditions are met, and the BB rule disallows them from joining the unit in the transport. BB simply cannot embark on a transport.