Number of attacks included in profile?

[crackspyder]

Hi guys, Im new to 40k, and i've finally decided to stop lurking on your board and ask some silly questions about the rules, and a couple mechanics that seem a little murky. By the way, In case it's all been asked and answered elsewhere, let me say that i swear i tried to forum search my little heart out before posting. Anyway...

 

Right now, I'm a little confused about how to determine a model or unit's total number of attacks in close combat.

 

The pertinent info that I've found on the subject in the 6E book, is on page 2, where the "Attacks" characteristic is explained as "the number of times a model attacks during close combat." Simple enough, so far so good. Page 22 explains the bonus attacks during the assault phase: +1 for charge, +1 for 2 weapons. The 2 weapon bonus is where I start scratching my head.

 

The problem I'm having in the interpretation of the SM and BA codexes, is trying to figure out in the case of certain units, if this bonus is factored into the profile already based on the included wargear, or if it is applied afterward. Part of the confusion seems to be that there are no units with absolute zero close combat weapons (pistols included) and there are no units with A=0.

 

Example 1: A tactical squad member is equipped with a bolt pistol (1 CCW) and has A1. Obviously, he doesn't get his A1 as a bonus. He has 1 CCW, and his A1 is inherent to the profile, since a bonus attack would only occur if he had a second weapon, like the sergeant, who goes from A2 to A3 when a chainsword is added to his profile.

 

However...

 

Example 2: An assault squad member is equipped standard with a bolt pistol AND a chainsword, yet his profile gives him A1. Since they are supposed to be close combat specialists, this is a case where it seems like the +1 bonus for 2 weapons should be applied IN ADDITION to the line stats, regardless of the fact that it's with equipment that comes standard. Also because the opposite would seam to mean that the poor bastard that gets stuck packing the flamer would have NO CC ATTACKS once he forfeits the +1 for having one or zero CCWs. He gets shanked with a box cutter by the first gretchin that jumps on his back.

 

Example 3: Terminators have A2, with 1 CCW. However, Assault Terminators have the same A2, even though they come standard with 2 lightning claws. This means that either the bonus attack for a second lightning claw has to be added to the profile (A3) or terminators with TH/SS forfeit one swing for losing a CCW (A1), and the guys with claws dont do any better in CC for having 2 CCWs instead of a storm bolter and fist. If the later is true, and applied to example 2, again, the guy with the flamer is useless in CC.

 

There were more examples, but these 3 illustrate the issue I'm trying to address. I guess i need someone to either point out the obvious line that i missed in the 6E rulebook, or explain the clear-cut way to read and interpret all unit entries, and how bonuses are either added or subtracted.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

If bonus attacks are already included in the unit/models profile it will clearly say so in the unit/model's entry. If it doesn't say they're already included, they get added to the base characteristic.

 

An Assault Marine, armed with a BP and CCW gets 1 base Attack, +1 Attack for having two CCWs and potentially +1 Attack for charging too.

 

An Assault Terminator with twin-LCs gets 2 base Attacks, +1 Attack for two CCWs and again, potentially +1 Attack for charging. A TH/SS Terminator wouldn't get the extra Attack for 2 CCWs because a Thunder Hammer is an 'Unwieldy' weapon but could get +1A for charging.

[Acebaur]

What Res Ispa said, except that a TH being Unwieldy has nothing to do with attacks. Unwieldy makes you strike at I1. A TH is a Specialist Weapon which can only gain +1 attack from another specialist weapon, which a SS is not. So no bonus attack. Just thought I would clear that up. :huh:

 

 

PS Yes that means a model with a PF and a LC would get a bonus attack for whatever weapon he decided to use that round. ;)

[crackspyder]

If bonus attacks are already included in the unit/models profile it will clearly say so in the unit/model's entry. If it doesn't say they're already included, they get added to the base characteristic.

 

Good to hear. Otherwise, I wouldn't see much point in assault squads, even in a BA army. Is that kind of noted/pre-included bonus more common in other codices? I don't recall seeing examples of those in the two in question.

 

PS Yes that means a model with a PF and a LC would get a bonus attack for whatever weapon he decided to use that round.

 

Interesting. I thought they had to be the SAME weapon. Id like to see a model with an LC and TH.

 

Thanks for the help guys ;)

[dswanick]

If bonus attacks are already included in the unit/models profile it will clearly say so in the unit/model's entry. If it doesn't say they're already included, they get added to the base characteristic.

 

Good to hear. Otherwise, I wouldn't see much point in assault squads, even in a BA army. Is that kind of noted/pre-included bonus more common in other codices? I don't recall seeing examples of those in the two in question.

It is more common in some Codexes - the first one to come to mind is the BA Furioso and DC Dreads. One has A2(3) and the other A3(4).

PS Yes that means a model with a PF and a LC would get a bonus attack for whatever weapon he decided to use that round.

 

Interesting. I thought they had to be the SAME weapon. Id like to see a model with an LC and TH.

In 5th this was true. The wording of the 6th Ed rule for Specialist weapon leaves it open to LC/TH, LC/PF, etc - but I expect it will probably get Errata'd soon.

[DarkGuard]

The Tyranid Codex also and sort of has bonus attacks included in their profiles. Basically, they'll never get +1 to attacks for two weapons, so don't let a Nid player con you there.

 

But in general, if the bonus attacks are included it'll say. Most don't include them, so feel free to add a bonus attack to your Assault Marines if they have two weapons.