Vindicator Tactica (6th Edition)

[rpnightsend]

So I've been wanting to write a Tactica one my favorite tanks - the Vindicator - for awhile but I decided to wait until I was a couple dozen games into 6th edition to do so. I took a look around with the search and didn't find a similar thread. If I missed it, could a mod please move this then?

 

That being said, here's my overview of Vindicators in 6th Edition:

 

Pros and Cons

Pros:

• S10, AP2 - This is the reason you take a vindicator. It has a big gun. Most importantly, 6th edition made 2+ saves and FNP harder to ignore, both things that the Vindicator will have little trouble getting over with its Demolisher Cannon.
  
• Templates always hit vehicles at full Strength - A vindicator's presence alone may keep your opponent from bunching his tanks up now.
  
• Front Armor 13 - S7 will have a tough time glancing this to death from the front, and even S8 and S9 won't be ripping it apart easily from the front
  
• Hull Points - Before, any glancing hit put the Vindicator out of commission for a turn, if not the whole game. Now that hail-mary glancing hits won't be making it useless, the Vindicator is a lot more useful on the field.
  
• Randomized Weapon Destroyed Results - Even on a successful penetration, the vindicator won't be necessarily losing its big gun to one lucky roll anymore.
  
• Siege Shields - Almost always worth it, an immobilized Vindicator is very often a useless Vindicator
  
• 5+ Base Cover Save - With cover saves on the whole much lower, the vindicator is much more reliable against enemies crouching behind a tree.
  

Cons

• 24" Range - Although you can easily be within firing range on your first turn, the Vindicator needs to be pretty close to the enemy to use its primary weapon.
  
• Side Armor 11 - Side Armor 11 is nothing impressive, and even worse with the Vindicator's low range. Any anti-tank unit with a modicum of mobility will be able to get around to the side of it and give it some trouble.
  
• Smoke Launchers - The cover save nerf worked both ways, and if your vindicator is forgoing its shooting to protect itself its a bit less likely to survive.
  
• With only one primary gun and such low range, the Vindicator can be disabled fairly easily if you aren't careful with it.
  

 

General Tactica

List Building

• The most important point of the vindicator for list building purposes is that its weapon is a jack-of-all-trades. It can competently handle vehicle or infantry, especially heavy infantry. This means the main consideration for the rest of your list should be how they help keep it alive, rather than whether it plugs holes in your list offensively.
  
• The Vindicator fills a very different role than a Whirlwind or Predator, and all 3 fill different roles in the army. It's point cost is comparative to both of these other primary offensive tanks. The Vindicator also costs about as much as most minimized infantry squads in C:SM.
  
• All of the Vindicator's upgrades can be useful, even if some of them are situational. The closest one to a no-brainer is the siege shield, but this can depend on the rest of your list (See Using Terrain below). The worst would be the Extra Armor, which has been made less useful by the new vehicle damage rules. Hunter Killer missiles can give you extra one-turn punch against vehicles if you lack anti-armor in your list, and the storm bolter can provide a little extra insurance against losing your main gun.
  
• The Vindicator is going to draw firepower. A lot of it. This makes it ideal for vehicle-heavy lists, where it will draw fire from other assets. Even more importantly, take 2. Unless your opponent has an incredible amount of long-range anti-tank (or is in particular favor with the dice gods), they should have difficulty disabling, let alone destroying, both vindicators before they can do some damage.
  
• Of the other Marine vehicles, the Vindicator has the best synergy with Land Raiders and Predators. Predators and Vindicators draw the same kind of anti-tank fire, and predators can be kitted out for a long ranged anti-vehicle or anti-infantry role, allowing the Vindicator to perform the other from short range. Land Raiders are good for screening Vindicators' abysmal side armor while Vindicators provide a deterrent from enemies trying to approach a Land Raider to use melta or attack it in close combat.
  
• Hiding a techmarine behind a Vindicator can be a good idea, as he will be capable of keeping up with your gun-on-treads and will significantly increase the survivability of a unit that will almost indefinitely be a fire magnet.
  

Deployment

• Deploying the Vindicator can be tricky, and mostly depends on the rest of your list.
  
• If it is your primary fire support unit (or worse, your only vehicle(s)) then you may want to keep it back a bit to ensure it survives long enough to provide fire support when needed.
  
• If your list is vehicle heavy and you can screen it with rhinos, dreadnoughts or land raiders, its front armor will usually be adequate to keep it alive through a turn of shooting and let you start using its gun as soon as possible.
  
• Holding the Vindicator in reserve is a good option in missions that deploy on long table edges. It has a 30" threat range on the turn it comes in and can be a bit of a surprise for an opponent attempting to line up a charge against you.
  
• Remember, the very presence of a vindicator will give your opponent pause when deploying his units. He'll be far less likely to try to screen his units (especially vehicles) with his other units. It may also force him to put vital units in cover or even reserve to protect them.
  

Using Terrain

• Depending on how you equipped your vindicator and how the rest of your list looks, terrain will be your best friend or worst enemy.
  
• With a siege shield the Vindicator can shoulder aside most terrain to get into good fire position while providing cover for itself.
  
• Even with a siege shield though, moving the vindicator into cover means you may be providing your opponent a cover save against your cannon, something you should be trying to avoid when necessary.
  

Picking Targets

• The Demolisher Cannon's all-around usefulness can make picking targets difficult because any opponent seems viable. Once again, its important to consider the rest of your army and your opponents tactics.
  
• Very few weapons, or even entire units, are reliable against common deathstar units such as Paladins, Nob Bikers and Thunderwolf Cavalry. That should make these a priority target for your vindicators as the rest of your army will probably have trouble dealing with them, and even then you may want to soften them up with a Demolisher Cannon shot or two to ensure the rest of your forces can handle them.
  
• Anything with T5 and FNP and/or multiple wounds (Plague Marines, Nob Bikers, Paladins, Ravenwing, Thunderwolf Cavalry) should also be a priority target, as they can be outlandishly difficult to hurt.
  
• Many players like to bunch their vehicles up to screen more important vehicles with transports. if your opponent does this, the vindicator will have little trouble disabling or even destroying several of your opponent's vehicles in the first turn.
  
• Deep-striking shooting units are also an excellent target. The presence of the vindicator will force them to decide whether to try to spread out or shoot and risk being annihilated by the demolisher cannon. If they stay bunched up, unless they aren't threatening anything immediately near them, the vindicator should have little trouble destroying most of them.
  
• One of the only bad targets for a Vindicator is high-toughness multi-wound enemies, specifically monstrous creatures. Without the ability to instant death them, the Vindicator's shot is best used elsewhere. In an emergency (or if there are no other targets) the vindicator could be used to soften these kind of enemies up for an assault (and hope you don't hit whatever unit you'll be using to charge that monstrosity), but they should still be a low-priority target.
  

Movement (Thanks to Ming for his suggestions on this section)

• Always keep mobile. There are few reasons to keep a Vindicator static. You want to be keeping your opponents just out of assault range and with only one gun that's really worth firing, you can move 6" every turn without really having a penalty.
  
• In the event you lose your Demolisher cannon, the Vindicator can still serve a purpose. With its good front armor it can be useful for tank shocking units into position to be hit by your other units (with little fear of a lucky Death or Glory! finishing it off) or even to try to move enemies off of objectives. Unlike Predators and Whirlwinds, it should always be near enemy units so it won't be driving halfway across the battlefield to make use of this.
  

 

Well that covers most of the important points. I'm interested in hearing everyone else's thoughts and discussion.

Cheers! :D

[Warsmith IV]

All this advice, combined with a Siege Assault Vanguard army list (Vindicator squadrons and 4 heavy support slots means up to 12 Vindicators - theoretically 24 at 2000+ points!!) makes for some scary tank...

[rpnightsend]

All this advice, combined with a Siege Assault Vanguard army list (Vindicator squadrons and 4 heavy support slots means up to 12 Vindicators - theoretically 24 at 2000+ points!!) makes for some scary tank...

Then use it well and kick some butt brother. I'd think staring down 3 vindicators would be bad enough...

[Lord Ragnarok]

Thank you for this. I'm planning on taking two and a LRC so this is helpful advice for me.

[Paulochromis]

you seem pretty keen on the siege shield.

apart from how cool it looks, what does it offer over and above the dozer blade?

Especially if the points saved can buy you the additional weapon to improve the chances of keeping the demo cannon firing after a Weapon Destroyed! result.

[WarriorFish]

Looking cool is reason enough ;) The ability to outright ignore cover when moving is pretty rare and useful anyway but factor in the Vindicator has a shorter range and weak side armour and it becomes very handy as it allows it to manoeuvre without fear to better position itself. I've always taken Siege Shields and never regretted it :cuss

 

Anyway, this was a good topic to read so thanks for taking the time to write it. I love my Vindicators but in 5th they often provided more use to me by the amount of attention they received rather than how much killing they did which always made me sad. I'm hoping that with the new 6th rules this will change but only time will tell :)

 

 

While we're discussing has anyone got experience using them with a Thunderfire Cannon? I'm assembling mine now (the old metal one - Emprah give me strength) as I've wanted to use it for ages anyway but it feels like a a diverse weapon that might support the Vindies well. Especially the ability to slow down enemies and therefore (in theory) help protect the Vindicators for example a unit trying to flank them.

[rubix41]

I love Vindicators - I always run my army with two; I might even go to three but I rather keep my versatile Dev unit - but I concur with the last poster:

 

apart from how cool it looks, what does it offer over and above the dozer blade?

Especially if the points saved can buy you the additional weapon to improve the chances of keeping the demo cannon firing after a Weapon Destroyed! result.

 

The Siege Shield is nice but, for a few points, the Dozer Blade is good enough for the re-roll. Why? Because you want those extra weapons! Seriously, the new Weapon Destroyed rules dictate a RANDOM weapon is destroyed - the Vindicator has two standard: the Demolisher and the Storm Bolter. That's 50/50 each way - add another Storm Bolter, that's only 1 in 3 chance it will be the cannon. I take those odds - even better when I take a HK missile - where it becomes a 1 in 4 chance.

 

The Vindicator is going to draw firepower. A lot of it. This makes it ideal for vehicle-heavy lists, where it will draw fire from other assets. Even more importantly, take 2. Unless your opponent has an incredible amount of long-range anti-tank (or is in particular favor with the dice gods), they should have difficulty disabling, let alone destroying, both vindicators before they can do some damage.

 

If someone is shooting my Vindicator's, it's because they have the rear or side armour in sight. With the right positioning and cover, firing Krak missiles into the front will be 5+ to glance and a minimum of 5+ on cover saves for my Vindicator. And, if you have two, its a lot of long range fire to attack you. What I am scared of is the deep striking/outflanking melta's into the flank and rear where it can pop you in one shot. Best way to cover it is with some troops (to shoot or assault your attacker) or possibly the odd Rhino so they don't get the vulnerable rear and you get a cover save.

 

Of the other Marine vehicles, the Vindicator has the best synergy..

 

Funny enough, I actually think anything that ignores cover is very important for Vindicators. You see, one of the major problems with that awesome gun is the cover save! For a gun that, in my old White Dwarf, delivered fiery death and exploded armour with ease, apparently hiding in a bush helps. People take a view that keeping them spread out will limit the damage from the template but then that means some remain in cover whilst some aren't. So how about using focus fire with Dragonfire/flamers on those who are in cover whilst the Vindicator takes care out of those in the open?

 

Although I love Vindicators, I still feel unnerved with the Hull Point situation: The side armour can be glanced easily and you will probably lose the HP effortlessly before they fire the gun.

[DarkGuard]

Thank you for this brother, a very good read.

 

I used to love Vindicators, and would always used two. I then started to go off them. They died quickly, were short ranged, lost their guns quickly, and always scattered. I took one as a bullet magnet, and soon I didn't take any.

 

However, with the new rules, and for the points you've listed (AP2 and S10 more important, blast template always full strength, weaker cover saves), I think I'll take one, maybe two in my list from now on, and see how they get on. Hopefully they'll do well. :)

[rpnightsend]

Glad you guys are finding this useful, I'll also amend it should the discussion bring up something important I missed.

 

you seem pretty keen on the siege shield.

apart from how cool it looks, what does it offer over and above the dozer blade?

Especially if the points saved can buy you the additional weapon to improve the chances of keeping the demo cannon firing after a Weapon Destroyed! result.

Good point. I said that almost every upgrade is viable for the vindicator, including the dozer blade. Personally I used to always give my vindicators extra armor, so I've been using those 15 points to take both the extra storm bolter and the siege shield, as I wouldn't have much to do with the left over 5 points anyways.

While we're discussing has anyone got experience using them with a Thunderfire Cannon? I'm assembling mine now (the old metal one - Emprah give me strength) as I've wanted to use it for ages anyway but it feels like a a diverse weapon that might support the Vindies well. Especially the ability to slow down enemies and therefore (in theory) help protect the Vindicators for example a unit trying to flank them.

I personally don't use my thunderfire cannon much (I'm a treadhead and I love my whirlwind) but I'd think it would work quite well with the vindicator. I would position the thunderfire cannon to be able to target units trying to hide in cover, forcing them into the open where your vindicator can pound them. The biggest problem I have with the thunderfire cannon is it does little to help the survivability of the vindicator. Because its usually deployed in cover and is entirely static when its shooting it can't help to screen the vindicator like another tank would, and most enemies would rather shoot the vindicator than your well-camouflaged cannon. But given my first point, I would hardly call it a bad choice.

[Captain Idaho]

Some great points, though I'll never think Extra Armour or even the Siege Shield is points well spent. Just how often are you really going to move a Vindicator through terrain? I think I've moved vehicles through cover like twice in my entire life. Well, except Dreads of course.

 

But on the whole, I'm really keen on getting a Vindicator into my army having read this topic. Shame I'm such a Dread-Head! :lol:

[DarkGuard]

Idaho is right about the siege shield, a dozer blade is good enough. It's a 1/36 chance of immobilising yourself on difficult terrain then, which is good enough.

[Lord Scytha]

Idaho is right about the siege shield, a dozer blade is good enough. It's a 1/36 chance of immobilising yourself on difficult terrain then, which is good enough.

 

Still is there anyone who doesn't put the siege shield on the model anyway. It so totally awesome looking not to imo.

[FlamingDeth]

The main trick for keeping a vindicator alive is to have multiple vindicators! For added fun, now you can put a tactical squad (or just a combat squad) behind an aegis in the middle of your starting zone and blow up anything trying to deep strike in to take out rear/side armor with your quadgun.

[DarkGuard]

Idaho is right about the siege shield, a dozer blade is good enough. It's a 1/36 chance of immobilising yourself on difficult terrain then, which is good enough.

 

Still is there anyone who doesn't put the siege shield on the model anyway. It so totally awesome looking not to imo.

 

That's what I used to say, and I've stuck the siege shield on it. But I only use it as a dozer blade, that's what I paid the points for, and no one questions it.

[ShinyRhino]

Nice writeup. I've only fielded a Vindicator in one tourney's worthof games, waaaaay back at the dawn of 5th Edition. It was a brute that day, but I ended up getting rid of the model ('twas the old, metal version).

I've wanted to pick up some new ones, but never have.

[Ming]

Am disapointed (for the moment) on siege shields. Not worth the cost (BUT, notice how they look like Aegis Defense line sections...get the picture? Ranted before, in other games the Vindicator siege shield gave the model a 4+ cover save on shots from the front due to the shield...that would make it worthwhile...dreaming maybe someday it will be in the next Mahreen Co-Dex.).

 

Anyhoo...

 

Adding to the tactica -

 

1. Setting up a Vindicator on the deployment zone edge (if you deploy first) gives you a great threat bubble that can determine where your opponent deploys (likely more than 30 inches from the Vindicator gun barrel).

 

2. Other vehicles (rhinos or chimeras) can act as side shields for the Vindicator. Giving you a mobile cover save.

 

3. Vindicators can act as bait to call forword the opponent't own tank hunters - set yourself up for side shot ambush units (such as laspreds or typhoons, cyclones) to take advantage. Aegis quad guns can also take advantage of flyers brought in to attack your vidicator.

 

4. A techmarine following behind the Vindicator may be a good option (better than a shield), giving a nominal 5+ to add a HP back on the vehicle. Some psyker abilities can also do the same if you roll up that ability.

 

5. Always move the vindicator at least 6 inches at all times, using adjacent units or terrain to offer nominal cover.

 

6. Some scenarios let heavy support units capture or deny objectives. This creates special attention to where you place objectives you may want the vindicator to reach on turn 5.

[rpnightsend]

Nice writeup. I've only fielded a Vindicator in one tourney's worthof games, waaaaay back at the dawn of 5th Edition. It was a brute that day, but I ended up getting rid of the model ('twas the old, metal version).

I've wanted to pick up some new ones, but never have.

Really? I love the old model. I own that and 2 of the newer plastic one. The metal serves as my command tank in apocalypse games for my linebreaker formation.

Am disapointed (for the moment) on siege shields. Not worth the cost (BUT, notice how they look like Aegis Defense line sections...get the picture? Ranted before, in other games the Vindicator siege shield gave the model a 4+ cover save on shots from the front due to the shield...that would make it worthwhile...dreaming maybe someday it will be in the next Mahreen Co-Dex.).

 

Anyhoo...

 

Adding to the tactica -

 

1. Setting up a Vindicator on the deployment zone edge (if you deploy first) gives you a great threat bubble that can determine where your opponent deploys (likely more than 30 inches from the Vindicator gun barrel).

 

2. Other vehicles (rhinos or chimeras) can act as side shields for the Vindicator. Giving you a mobile cover save.

 

3. Vindicators can act as bait to call forword the opponent't own tank hunters - set yourself up for side shot ambush units (such as laspreds or typhoons, cyclones) to take advantage. Aegis quad guns can also take advantage of flyers brought in to attack your vidicator.

 

4. A techmarine following behind the Vindicator may be a good option (better than a shield), giving a nominal 5+ to add a HP back on the vehicle. Some psyker abilities can also do the same if you roll up that ability.

 

5. Always move the vindicator at least 6 inches at all times, using adjacent units or terrain to offer nominal cover.

 

6. Some scenarios let heavy support units capture or deny objectives. This creates special attention to where you place objectives you may want the vindicator to reach on turn 5.

1 was considered, 2 was mentioned. 3 and 4 will be added. 5 and 6 I believe warrant a bit more discussion before being added

[DarkGuard]

Well with 5, I reckon it's sound advice. You're operating close to enemy lines, and if you're charged but haven't moved then you're being hit automatically in combat. At least in combat if you've moved you're only being hit on 3s. It's a difference, and that's why I would advise to keep it moving.

[WarriorFish]

Agreed, there's normally no reason not to keep moving especially when you've got supporting units that can move in to help intercept/protect the flanks. I like Techmarines almost as much as I like tanks so I'll be rolling out my Thunderfire with them once it is finished - death by templates! :cuss

[Ming]

#5 specifically because it means otherwise all assaults on the vehicle atomatically hit. No penalty at all for a Vidicator to move every turn, up to 6 inches.

 

#6 is situational, 1/6th of games may encounter heavies as scoring. On one hand, the goal would be to have it move toward an objective with the thought to claim it turn 5....on the other hand, (rules not in front of me) you may be able to just use the vindicator to deny or tank shock onto an opponent's objective (supposing you have the last turn) as one of the rare means for you to use a vehicle to deny.

 

Note, everything here for the Vindicator may be applicable to your new ally, the Lehman Russ Tank....

[rpnightsend]

I added a bit on keeping it mobile, using techmarines, as per your suggestion, and also a bit on picking targets I thought of today.

Note, everything here for the Vindicator may be applicable to your new ally, the Lehman Russ Tank....

I would use a Leman Russ in an entirely different role, but that is a discussion for a different topic.

[rubix41]

5. Always move the vindicator at least 6 inches at all times, using adjacent units or terrain to offer nominal cover.

 

What about he concept of area denial? No matter what people have said - running a Vindicator up front seems to get it tabled faster than anything but what if they come to you? Place two objectives 22" in front of the Vindicator - OPEN no Cover - and then pack the vindicator in cover and wait for them to get in range. If I am going aggressive, the vindicator is kinda like a feint, it draws a lot of fire but that's fine - better the vindicators than the tactical terminators I am deep striking in -if it gets to the target its a bonus, if not, it saves a lot of punishing fire away from the main strike force.

[rpnightsend]

Place two objectives 22" in front of the Vindicator - OPEN no Cover -

You place objectives before picking table sides, rolling to see who goes first and deployment. While that could be a decent idea, your opponent can easily do something similar if you put two objectives like that. Or they could just ignore those objectives until later on. I can't think of many people who would blindly rush to an objective on first turn in the open, in front of a vindicator.

[Mysticaria]

Idaho is right about the siege shield, a dozer blade is good enough. It's a 1/36 chance of immobilising yourself on difficult terrain then, which is good enough.

I play 2 as the staple in my army... I use the "siege shield" to represent the AV13 and save the points. Unless your metagame calls for it, there is no reason to take a dozer blade or a siege shield on a vindicator. At 115 points... or 230 points for a pair... the vindicator is simply amazing. That's the cost of a tactical squad for cryin out loud, and puts the fear of the Emperor into our enemies. Even if they never kill anything (which is rare... even rarer now that glances don't stop the shooting) they always, always, always change my opponents behavior.

 

Vindicators were good in 5th, and just simply better in 6E:

- no more half strength

- no more glances that stop us from shooting

- no more autoloss of main gun on weap destroyed

- turbo-boost gives better redeployment options

- metagame changes (nerf to powerweapons causes more terminators i.e. 'more better' targets for vindis)

 

-Myst

[rpnightsend]

Vindicators were good in 5th, and just simply better in 6E:

- no more half strength

- no more glances that stop us from shooting

- no more autoloss of main gun on weap destroyed

- turbo-boost gives better redeployment options

- metagame changes (nerf to powerweapons causes more terminators i.e. 'more better' targets for vindis)

All but your 4th point were already discussed, but I'm interested in hearing more about that one. I'm yet to turbo boost my Vindicator.