How do we fight deathmarks?

[himkano]

So I played a necron army Saturday, and I am stumped. Apparently there is a weapon, which can be taken by cryptics? that shoots a template that is STR 8, AP 1, instant death, and it targets your leadership. These units can be assigned to a deathmark unit, and the faq says that the deathmark applies to characters that join the unit. So, the deathmarks are in a transport, which can zoom on the board and unload, without deepstrike roll.

 

How do you fight a unit that can, fly onto the the board, unload a unit, mark that unit, and then hit that unit with two STR 8, AP 1, instant death flamer templates that wound on 2+. My opponent had 2 of these units, and I don't know how many points they cost, but I cannot see any way to counter this (other than taking a intercept gun, but even then, you MIGHT kill One (but since they have Armor 13 until penetrated, even that is unlikely).

 

This is not a whine, but I am building a new list, so now would be the time to consider ways to counter something like this in a way that compliments the rest of my list.

[Zeller]

Blow up the transport and make the squad walk. The crypteks aren't packing veil if they have that weapon which rolls against enemy leadership to wound. The codex says any 'deathmark unit' which scores hits an enemy unit will round it on a 2+. Now I haven't read the rulebook in any degree of depth yet but unless by being attached to a deathmark squad the cryptek counts as being a member of a deathmark squad for all intents and purposes then he wouldn't benefit from the 2+ to wound. I have a sneaky feeling that he does count as one though which is rather dumb to say the least. You could also use VV to deepstrike as a counterassault.Deathmarks come in and attack a squad of joe-marines then your VV swoop in and tear them apart. Alternatively there is always a vindicator that's casually waiting a few feet away for an opportunity.

[Chaplain Admetus]

By "targets your leadership", do you mean wounds against leadership? Because if so then its wounding on a 5+ (leadership 9 sergeants), and definitely no better than 4+ as BA are leadership 8 minimum. As far as the transport "zooming across the board" goes, you can only move 6" and disembark, any further prevents you from getting out. 6" move, 6" disembark, 8.5" template - as long as you remain 21" away you shouldn't be reachable.

 

+EDIT+ to follow up on Zeller - I'd be hesitant on using vanguard as a counter-assault unit in this case as its a flamer of death, and gets d3 automatic hits on overwatch when you try and charge, and vanguard are way too expensive to take in large numbers. DS melta honour guard would do the trick better.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

How do you fight a unit that can, fly onto the the board, unload a unit, mark that unit, and then hit that unit with two STR 8, AP 1, instant death flamer templates that wound on 2+.

That Deathmark unit can only 'Mark for Death' one opposing Unit of yours. So it nukes one unit, perhaps (remember, there are lots of ways of arranging your formations that can severely limit template hits). Then any unmarked Unit can counter-charge and slay them really easily.

 

Also, use 'bubblewrap' to place units you don't want dead in your center, and the units you don't need as much on the vulnerable outsides. They can't template what they can't get at. Use a board-edge to good effect here, so that one RAS could potentially screen-off and protect up to three other Units depending on how you position them.

 

Honestly, I really really want to play against a 'good' Necron player. Most of them rely on cheese-factor and aren't very good players in and of themselves. Because both on paper and in my head, it seems out of all the MEQ in the whole game, Jumper-Blood Angel, Any Drop-Pod, or (suprisingly) Ravenwing/WhiteScars lists can simply beat the heck out of any Necron list you might want.

 

Reason being those armies can 'get under' Flyers by Turn2, because flyers hate games that are fought in their own deployment zone.

 

Make sure your opponent declares which of his Scythes are deepstriking before the game. Because he is not allowed to change his mind later, and once you are in his deployment zone he will most likely have to zoom on past you when he shows up, or get one Turn of good shooting at best. ESPECIALLY if your lists are composed entirely of Jumpers which DoA, bikes which Turboboost, Fast-Preds (24" move now) and Ravens. An Army so fast, it literally nullifies his flyers unless he has the foresight to deepstrike them.

 

Final note: Necron flyers are not AV13 until first Penetrate. They do not have that rule. Quadgun looks mighty hungry... ;D

[Mordenkenain]

I am a dedicated necron player, I have played them for the past 10 years and am frankly appalled by some of the gimmicky lists that people are throwing out.

 

In answer to your question

How do you fight a unit that can, fly onto the the board, unload a unit, mark that unit, and then hit that unit with two STR 8, AP 1, instant death flamer templates that wound on 2+.

by explaining to the opponent that actually he can't do that, the weapon does not actually have the rule for instant death, and because it rolls to wound against leadership, the leadership is used for calculating the instant death threshold, not the toughness.

 

Beyond that, get as close to your own board edge as possible, the night scythe has to move at least 18" onto the board before dropping the troops, and if it moves more than 24", the contents can only snap shot, which the abyssal staff as a template weapon cannot be used for. Also, its freaking AV11, if it keeps hold of the contents to try and drop them next turn, blast it out of the sky, in which case the contents go into reserve and have to do the march of doom from their own table edge (ah 3rd ed nostalgia). Finally, to take 2 squads of this, your opponent must also have taken 2 overlords which are either going to be very vulnerable or massive points sinks (I personally only take a pair of them for the full court disco inferno build), find them, kill them and laugh as your opponent kills perhaps 12 models with this tactic while you start mowing down everything you can see.

 

note that being in the opponents deployment zone turn 1 is not a good idea as the scythe doesn't have to enter play perpendicular to the table edge and so can threaten things in its own deployment zone when it first turns up

[CitadelArmyGuy]

note that being in the opponents deployment zone turn 1 is not a good idea as the scythe doesn't have to enter play perpendicular to the table edge and so can threaten things in its own deployment zone when it first turns up

 

Yes understood, point given.

 

I apologize for not clarifying that a blitz will not protect you from the Template-Staffs Deathmark unit.

 

It will protect you against mass-Flyer Spam because they will get one 'good' Turn of shooting at you, then become mitigated beyond belief.

 

Also, they are rather large and get in each other's way-- and they can only shoot 45 degree angle in front of themselves, no turret or swivel. So if you do it right, you can limit the number of flyers shooting at you to an even larger degree.

 

But I am derailing this thread, I'm off in anti-flyer spam tactics and we are supposed to be talking about Deathmarks. Mea Culpa

[Morticon]

welcome to the forums Mord- and thanks for signing up to post and share the helpful insight!

[Taranis]

In answer to your question

How do you fight a unit that can, fly onto the the board, unload a unit, mark that unit, and then hit that unit with two STR 8, AP 1, instant death flamer templates that wound on 2+.

by explaining to the opponent that actually he can't do that, the weapon does not actually have the rule for instant death, and because it rolls to wound against leadership, the leadership is used for calculating the instant death threshold, not the toughness.

Two templates means 2 hq and 2 "honour guard". Expensive.

He wounds on 2+ due to hunters from hyperspace/deathmark rule. It's ap1 and instant death is resolved vs ld.

[Morticon]

To my knowledge the 2+ thing works perfectly fine.

The template wounds on LD but, the deathmarks wound on 2+ which confer to any characters in the squad- so its templatey 2+ death.

 

 

I think the only thing I can think of to counter this is a quad gun. But would be tricky. And not guaranteed.

[Mordenkenain]

Two templates means 2 hq and 2 "honour guard". Expensive.

He wounds on 2+ due to hunters from hyperspace/deathmark rule. It's ap1 and instant death is resolved vs ld.

 

yes, my point was not that the entire thing is impossible, merely that the weapon does not cause instant death, the only way it could cause instant death is if your marines were ld 4, or am I missing something and your marines were ld 4 for some reason...

 

sorry for any confusion; I was just pointing out that, though it is a cheesy, cheesy tactic, it doesn't kill most characters (I remember someone I know trying to pull that trick against everyone only to end up facing the draigowing... it went well :ermm:)

[himkano]

Zeller - Thanks, obviously blow up the transport, but what do we have that lets us blow up 2 transports on the turn they come in, because they can move 18" and unload (and you are playing an aggressive army, you are within 24" of his table edge by turn 2 - especially if you go first).

 

CitadelArmyGuy - It's true that they can only mark 1 unit each, the problem is that on turn 2 you are losing your terminator squad (or 2 terminator squads), or your deathstar. Bubble wrap is a good idea but slows down the army. I also thought that getting into his deployment zone would keep me safe (that's why I didn't take any AA), but it is possible for them to take a pretty steep angle, and still be able to drop their guys within their own deployment zone (it would probably be a little harder if I was on an edge, instead of the middle of his deployment zone). Check on the flyers / transports. I didn't look in his book, but this guy doesn't cheat (although he may have made a mistake), but he is not the first necron player who told me they have +2 armor until they take a penetrating hit (then they go from 13 to 11). I have the necron book, but I haven't really looked at it - so you may be right.

 

Mordenkenain - Thanks. Maybe it didn't have ID, but it didn't matter since my bikes, and my terminators, and almost everything else in my army only has 1 wound. Your advise is good though, against necrons, it's a good idea NOT to push their deployment zone one turn 2. Maybe hang back and deal with flyers, and then deal with rest. It seemed like he still had plenty to deal with my army though (despite however many points he spent on the units)

 

Thanks taking the time to respond, and for the insight. By the way, the battle report is in the link in my sig (something new I am trying since 6th. Not awesome writing, but there are pictures)

[Mezkh]

Ally in Coteaz with a psycannon GK strike squad, 320 points, 340 with psybolts.

 

'I've been expecting you' with rerolls to hit on 8 Str7 rending and str 5 will fix up both the flyer and the squad disembarking.

 

Sure it's a highly specific counter, vs a specific unit.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

CitadelArmyGuy - It's true that they can only mark 1 unit each, the problem is that on turn 2 you are losing your terminator squad (or 2 terminator squads), or your deathstar. Bubble wrap is a good idea but slows down the army. I also thought that getting into his deployment zone would keep me safe (that's why I didn't take any AA), but it is possible for them to take a pretty steep angle, and still be able to drop their guys within their own deployment zone (it would probably be a little harder if I was on an edge, instead of the middle of his deployment zone).

But if your whole means of winning is tied to the success or failure of one unit, then generally I'd take another look at your list. I don't believe in Deathstars, 6 THSS Termies with Corbulo is about as 'heavy' as I get.

 

And since the Template does not ID, it means you can FnP against it. So THSS gets 3++ and then 5+ to save on it. Granted you've got the rest of the rapidfire snipers (aside: what the hell is that GW? lol seriously plz go look up the definition of 'sniper'...) to deal with, so your survival is by no means guaranteed. But its a far cry better than nothing.

 

Mephiston recieves 5.70 wounds from 2 templates and 20 rapidfire snipers (all wounding on 2+, with Rending calculated in), but if he has FnP then drops to 3.8.

 

THSS TDA with FnP receive 2.7 wounds from that same unit (iff 4 template hits, so go with a line-formation to make sure this is the max-hits; easily achievable due to 40mm bases). You were saying about it killing deathstars? It will kill *some* deathstars, but others probably like gettin' a good little tickle ;) And they better hope they kill ya, because they are dying against a counter charge.

 

Also, the unit costs 280pts, because one of the Crypteks is almost certainly taking a Veil of Darkness to Deepstrike away next turn if you fail to countercharge.

 

 

And bubble wrap does not slow your army. Forget I said bubblewrap (implies cheap and expendable), instead think 'shielding unit'-- I'm talking using JP RAS or MM attbikes, and of course tie it to a flank-board edge (your best friend.... I can only count on one hand how many times I've attacked down the center. Its generally just such a poor idea. Refuse that Flank man :P linky: Refused Flank )

[himkano]

CitadelArmyGuy - It's true that they can only mark 1 unit each, the problem is that on turn 2 you are losing your terminator squad (or 2 terminator squads), or your deathstar. Bubble wrap is a good idea but slows down the army. I also thought that getting into his deployment zone would keep me safe (that's why I didn't take any AA), but it is possible for them to take a pretty steep angle, and still be able to drop their guys within their own deployment zone (it would probably be a little harder if I was on an edge, instead of the middle of his deployment zone).

But if your whole means of winning is tied to the success or failure of one unit, then generally I'd take another look at your list. I don't believe in Deathstars, 6 THSS Termies with Corbulo is about as 'heavy' as I get.

 

And since the Template does not ID, it means you can FnP against it. So THSS gets 3++ and then 5+ to save on it. Granted you've got the rest of the rapidfire snipers (aside: what the hell is that GW? lol seriously plz go look up the definition of 'sniper'...) to deal with, so your survival is by no means guaranteed. But its a far cry better than nothing.

 

Mephiston recieves 5.70 wounds from 2 templates and 20 rapidfire snipers (all wounding on 2+, with Rending calculated in), but if he has FnP then drops to 3.8.

 

THSS TDA with FnP receive 2.7 wounds from that same unit (iff 4 template hits, so go with a line-formation to make sure this is the max-hits; easily achievable due to 40mm bases). You were saying about it killing deathstars? It will kill *some* deathstars, but others probably like gettin' a good little tickle ;) And they better hope they kill ya, because they are dying against a counter charge.

 

Also, the unit costs 280pts, because one of the Crypteks is almost certainly taking a Veil of Darkness to Deepstrike away next turn if you fail to countercharge.

 

 

And bubble wrap does not slow your army. Forget I said bubblewrap, think 'shielding unit'-- I'm talking using JP RAS or MM attbikes, and of course tie it to a flank-board edge (your best friend.... I can only count on one hand how many times I've attacked down the center. Its generally just such a poor idea. Refuse that Flank man ;) linky: Refused Flank )

 

Of course you are right, that the game shouldn't hinge on one unit, although maybe 2, and in this case, bikes were my deathstar - for some reason I thought they would be a good screen to make sure my charging rhinos got to the enemy lines, although now I can't remember what I expected the rhinos to do once they got there. (which shows how bad my list was - I must have been really tired when I made it), but the opponent remarked that he wished it had been 2 squads of termies, and I realized that if I had brought 2 squads of termies, they would have been equally dead - No one would have responded to my post if I asked "How can I keep Marine Bikes alive?" :P

[Mordenkenain]

rapidfire snipers (aside: what the hell is that GW? lol seriously plz go look up the definition of 'sniper'...)

 

why are you complaining, I'm the one who has to suffer the indignity of fielding these *bleeeeeeeep*s

 

 

Againt necrons, NEVER rely on only one or two units. We have so many ways of ripping a couple of units apart in the first turn that it's effectively handing the game over if your opponent has any clue of what they're doing.

 

Also, if your opponent is only just making use of deathmark/cryptek tactics, then keep a lookout, at some point in the near future he may try the c'tan/orikan combo

[Xenith]

what the hell is that GW? lol seriously plz go look up the definition of 'sniper'...

Erm:

One who snipes, or shoots from concealment, etc.; a sharp-shooter.

Seems like they're snipers to me.

 

You need anti aire firepower. get an Aegis or bastion with quad gun. Put the unit that keeps dying in a transport.

[Brother Weasel]

what the hell is that GW? lol seriously plz go look up the definition of 'sniper'...

Erm:

One who snipes, or shoots from concealment, etc.; a sharp-shooter.

Seems like they're snipers to me.

 

You need anti aire firepower. get an Aegis or bastion with quad gun. Put the unit that keeps dying in a transport.

 

I like transports when i'm using my Crons. I have a warrior unit that has a veiled cryptek with them, who goes out tank hunting... (i also take nemesor, who can give them tank hunter)

 

When i play my BA I tend to not make a death star, make lots of good units and overwhelm the crons, if he has death star killing units, all the better for you... but that's just how i play.

[Xenith]

I like transports when i'm using my Crons. I have a warrior unit that has a veiled cryptek with them, who goes out tank hunting... (i also take nemesor, who can give them tank hunter)

Good. then you're spending however many points (100+?) to kill a 35pt rhino. Then the occupants that you just removed from their transport charge you in their turn, unless you managed to wipe them with the rest of the army (unlikely, as they had the shelter of the wrecked, unexploded rhino) to block LOS from the rest of your army B)

[Arthanor]

I like transports when i'm using my Crons. I have a warrior unit that has a veiled cryptek with them, who goes out tank hunting... (i also take nemesor, who can give them tank hunter)

Good. then you're spending however many points (100+?) to kill a 35pt rhino. Then the occupants that you just removed from their transport charge you in their turn, unless you managed to wipe them with the rest of the army (unlikely, as they had the shelter of the wrecked, unexploded rhino) to block LOS from the rest of your army B)

Why assume that someone plays like an idiot? That same squad has a very similar chance to destroy any tank (with tank hunter, rapid firing on a land raider averages 4 hull points!), and the mobility to reach the one they want unless you castle/bublewrap. Even when not targeting tanks, it's not like they invested heavily in tank hunting so they don't waste very much. They are still a troop choice with decent guns who did not need to pay for special weapons and can use veil to move for any other purposes, from getting in range to shoot at something else to going to claim an objective. Trying to claim that he's wasting his points by dedicating his unit to the worse matchup you can come up with is meaningless.

[Morticon]

I like transports when i'm using my Crons. I have a warrior unit that has a veiled cryptek with them, who goes out tank hunting... (i also take nemesor, who can give them tank hunter)

Good. then you're spending however many points (100+?) to kill a 35pt rhino. Then the occupants that you just removed from their transport charge you in their turn, unless you managed to wipe them with the rest of the army (unlikely, as they had the shelter of the wrecked, unexploded rhino) to block LOS from the rest of your army :)

 

Cant charge the following turn if your transport is wrecked -unless it is open topped or an assault vehicle.

[Brother Weasel]

Cant charge the following turn if your transport is wrecked -unless it is open topped or an assault vehicle.

 

Bingo...

 

that and if you are protecting that deathstar with that rhino, i just opened them up, for the deathmarks...

 

no one ever said all i was going to do was open up a rhino with a squad of warriors, just that i can... (i usualy use em to take out storm ravens that are zooming...) but that it's an option to open up that can holding that thing inside or something else to shoot at... Deathmarks, doosday arc, ccb...) with the crons you don't lookk for the death star, you look for the combos, of which they have many...

 

Why assume that someone plays like an idiot? That same squad has a very similar chance to destroy any tank (with tank hunter, rapid firing on a land raider averages 4 hull points!), and the mobility to reach the one they want unless you castle/bublewrap. Even when not targeting tanks, it's not like they invested heavily in tank hunting so they don't waste very much. They are still a troop choice with decent guns who did not need to pay for special weapons and can use veil to move for any other purposes, from getting in range to shoot at something else to going to claim an objective. Trying to claim that he's wasting his points by dedicating his unit to the worse matchup you can come up with is meaningless.

 

quite true, the tank hunter aspect is just something i can do to up my odds of taking out any tank, it costs me nothing other then being able to add a benefit to anohter unit... if i don't need them to tank hunt, i don't... i'll veil them to rapid fire at a unit, or leave them back to try and get a late game objective... but they are only warriors, if i lose em to get at the juicy insides of a rhino (that death star unit that someone wins or loses by) then i'll toss em in... they may or may not die and possible take a lot of punishment as well... bonus...