Sisters capable of shrouding GK with their blood

[Aleax]

Hi.

 

I have the GK codex, but I am blind enough for not finding the story within, involving Sisters'blood being used to protect/hide Grey Knights...which page number exactly? ;)

 

Also, feel free to discuss the story here. If this is that desperate..., Chaos should win? For what, the extinction of life in the universe, and then the extinction of Chaos after that?

 

Cheers.

[Chairman_woo]

I can't give you a specific page right now but its in the 2-3 page long "timeline" bit ;). (One paragraph)

 

As for that bit of fluff itself.... I rather like it! I do have some issue with Matt "our spiritual liege" Wards fluff but only really with the way in which it is written as opposed to the actual ideas themselves which for the most part I'm rather down with!

 

The portrayal of the GK as the "ultimate pragmatists" chimes very nicely with me, they are blessed/cursed with an almost unique perspective on the harsh and mindbending truths of the human predicament inevitably leads to the kind of seemingly cold hearted actions cited in the current codex IMHO. If the virtually unparalleled wisdom and knowlage possesed by even the average GK suggests a swifter less costly end to a daemonic incursion then they would take it every time, their hearts long since steeled against the potential corruption of allowing themselves to feel any emotional compromise!

 

Annointing themselves with the freshly shed blood of martyred sisters is a suitably extreme example of this, the stakes could not be higher when facing the daemonic and were they able to comprehend their fate said sisters would give their lives gladly to defeat their emperors oldest and most dangerous enemy regardless.

 

If a million must die to save a billion so be it, if whole armies must be slain to safeguard entire worlds or even systems then the Grey Knights will not balk from their most sacred and vital of duties. The human race must endure the works of foul gods, jealous aliens and narrow sighted heretics! This is the task for which the GK were commissioned by their holy and wise emperor, and it is a task in which they will not permit themselves to be found wanting! No matter the cost, no matter how seemingly distasteful or callous, Humanity will endure in his holy name! Etc. Etc.

[Gentlemanloser]

It's an absolute rubbish bit of fluff.

 

I understand what Ward was trying to tell with that story, but he failed. Badly.

 

So, the uncorruptable GKs, to stop themselves being corrupted by the blood tide, have to shed the blood of the innocent, and bathe in it.

 

Like that's *not* something Khorne, the blood god would actually enjoy, nor get power out of.

 

Khorne: So, to stop my blood tide, you spilled the blood of innocents? *giggle* Thanks a bunch guys. Soon, you'll be mine. Oh yes.

[Orlunu]

All the blood rituals etc., we all know that the reason that no GK has ever fallen to chaos is that they are the Alpha Legion's puppets. ;)

 

I think it's a rather good bit of fluff, both of the previous comments are correct and that is what makes it fantastic. That such things have to be done to secure even a short-term respite, whilst helping the Ruinous Powers grow ever stronger, is the epitome of Grimdark™. And it was weirdly entertaining, although not well written.

[Abaddonshand]

Blood for the blo- eh, Emperor!

[Gentlemanloser]

I think it's a rather good bit of fluff

 

What, that the incorruptable were worried about being corrupted?

 

Or that bathing in the blood of innocents would stop the blood god, and not just appease him?

 

In order to save lives and limit the power of Khorne, the GK had to take lives and increase Khornes power. Wait, what? Oh, it's ok, the amount killed/power given was less than the amount Khorre would have got if the GK hadn't intervened.

 

Really?

 

So Khorne does it again, knowing that the GK will come along, and make it all good for him. If only in smaller measures.

 

So he does it again. And again. And again.

 

Using the GK as his own personal troops.

 

Win!

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I hate that bit of fluff by Ward. It's garbage and unnecessary.

 

G :tu:

[Gentlemanloser]

Aye.

 

Who needs Bloodletters, when the GK will spill blood for you?

[thade]

"Khorne cares not from where the blood flows, only that it flows without cease for all eternity."

 

While that canonical (and true) line about the Blood God is the primary support used against that bit of fluff (which, I admit, I also did not find palatable) we need to keep in mind that Khorne gains strength no matter who's doing the bleeding or to what end that bleeding is being done; you can't get around that. Just like any bit of pleasure strengthens Slaanesh, any bit of sickness strengthens Nurgle, and any bit of deceit strengthens Tzeentch. Each of the Chaos gods represent certain aspects of psychology and derive strength from their aspects being exemplified. When Inquisitor Rando tricks Space Marine Captain Gullible into allowing the purge of their Chapter Homeworld Victimus, well...Tzeentch enjoys it.

 

Is it plausible that the blood of incorruptible Sisters could further strengthen Grey Knight defenses against demonkind? Well, they already strap hip and thigh bones of martyrs to themselves and their weapons, don't they? They bind tomes in the flesh of dead martyrs. So I think it's pretty clear that the answer (however uncomfortable) is yes: Sister blood is a viable defense booster.

 

Martyrs. Martyrs. Where do we get all of these martyrs? I mean, sure, the galaxy is a huge and violent place, but the supply of martyrs is pretty impressive nonetheless. How does that pan out? A martyr is "somebody who suffers persecution and death for refusing to renounce, or accept, a belief or cause, usually religious." Okay, so - in this case - who suffered persecution and death? The Sisters. What cause or belief did they refuse to accept? Maybe that the Grey Knights had any authority since, you know, nobody knows that they exist. Bingo: instant martyrs. Oh, wait. For them to be martyrs, they need to be slaughtered...and so they were.

 

There is a lot I dislike about the Ward fluff (which I've spoken about at length before and - honestly - it's really not a good idea to reiterate it as it inexorably devolves into a flame war which we'll need to shut down) but this one bit, however awkward, is actually about as Grim Dark as you can get. That it makes us uncomfortable should be a relief; we want more of that in 40k, not less. Nobody is anybody's friend...making real camaraderie in 40k both very rare and extremely valuable.

[Gentlemanloser]

Thade, how about the incorruptable Grey Knights worried they would be corrupted by the Blood Tide?

 

I'm surprised it's now not standard practice to take a detachment of SoB along with any GK strike Force, so if they eno:cusser the Daemonic, they can bathe themselves in blood to resist the courruption.

[thade]

Thade, how about the incorruptable Grey Knights worried they would be corrupted by the Blood Tide?

You have a contradiction there, man. <3 That which is incorruptible cannot be corrupted, so that wasn't a danger to them. No more than using the flesh of martyrs to bind the Liber Daemonica, nor the blood of martyrs to scribe the true names of demons within.

 

Look at it this way: the situation they were in was really, really, really bad. The Sisters were going to die anyway...if not from the staggering strength and numbers of the demons, then when the GK invariably had to kill them later to protect The Big Secret. That's how Ordo Malleus works, or even the Ordos in general, right? Not just stopping it...but really, really, really going to any length to stop it and keep it from happening. They kill entire populations in order to keep the existence of demons secret. These Sisters didn't get a free pass, it seems.

 

So, the Knights - knowing the Sisters were already condemned to death - did them an honor and a service by preemptively putting them down and then putting their literal sacrifice to good use. Sisters are renowned for their purity above all else, but they are not immune to corruption. It's one thing to resist heretical thoughts and diatribes; another thing entirely to wall yourself against psychic invasion and real demons. They're not built or trained for it; GK are.

 

It was opportunistic but needed to be done. The idea of "bringing a fresh supply with them" is just silly exaggeration.

[Azekai]

So, the Knights - knowing the Sisters were already condemned to death - did them an honor and a service by preemptively putting them down and then putting their literal sacrifice to good use. Sisters are renowned for their purity above all else, but they are not immune to corruption. It's one thing to resist heretical thoughts and diatribes; another thing entirely to wall yourself against psychic invasion and real demons. They're not built or trained for it; GK are.

 

That really isn't the way it's presented in the Codex- the GKs were killing the sisters to get their blood, not for any other reason; if they pretended that they were doing the innocent, blameless sisters a favor while they slew them, that makes it even 'better.' Sisters, as the militant wing of the Ordo Hereticus, ARE good at withstanding psychic invasion. The sisters' faith is what allows them to be protected from the warp. They are not helpless against the darkness; they were not in danger of being corrupted, and despite the overwhelming presence of the daemon, they WERE PURE.

 

Also simply seeing the GKs is not a death sentence- mind scrubbing can be employed. The secrecy bit of the GKs is still one of the stupidest things in all of 40k lore, to me. The daemons are immortal and if they desire can whisper the secrets of the GKs to those who truck with them. Furthermore many of the 'lowly' common imperials featured in the books are shown to be at least tangentially aware of daemons or warpcraft. If the reason for the secrecy is to keep the lid on what lurks in the Immaterium, then they are hardly doing a bang-up job.

[thade]

Whythre, you make some very good points.

[stephane4985]

GK are not incorruptible. Why is peoples think they are? They are chosen amongst Astarte because they are the strongest of wills, they are the best at resisting being corrupted. And they are trained to get even better at that. But they are not incorruptible by nature.

 

Having never had a GK being corrupted does not means it cannot happen. But you can be sure that they will do everything they can to make sure it never happens, even if it means scarifying a thousands man (or woman).

[thade]

Honestly, I strongly suspect that only the truly durable by nature survive their training regime in the first place; their training on top of that really does make them incorruptible. To see why I think this, read The Emperor's Gift.

[stephane4985]

Sure their training is hard, it is why few made it to the end. It makes them nearly incorruptible. But they never say that they are totally. It is make pretty clear in the GK Omnibus that it would take alot to corrupt a GK, but it can happen.

[Gentlemanloser]

Needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint, the Grey Knights first act is to turn thier blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armour and weapons. So shielded, the Grey Kngihts are able to stride through the goreflood without risk of corruption

 

The surviving SoB. Why did they survive?

 

Some Battle sisters are corrupted on contact with the Bloodtide. Those who endure fight valiantly

 

So, some mortals resist Khornes corruption utterly, and then the GK come along and slay them for Khorne anyway. Go team Grey!

 

As for incorruptable;

 

A Grey Knight's psychic presence is anathema to creatures of the warp, utterly unpalatable to a Daemons dark appetites and thus entirely immune from corruption. Such was the Emperors gift to the very first Grey Knights; a legacy renewd in each generation

 

Kinda cut and dry there, really.

 

You have a contradiction there, man. <3 That which is incorruptible cannot be corrupted, so that wasn't a danger to them.

 

That's why Wards fluff is craptastic. It's a contradticion, they weren't in danager, and Crowe is even more incorruptable than the rest of the incorruptable Grey Kngihts. He's like Infinty +1!

 

Wards fluff is contradictory within itself, and downright bad. :( Sadly.

[thade]

Wards fluff is contradictory within itself, and downright bad. :( Sadly.

This I do agree with; I don't incorporate much of Ward's recent stuff into my own fluff at all.

 

But, the OP seemed interested and when I got here the "Ward's a noobcake" was already covered, so I did my best to cover the other side. ;) Like I do.

[Inquisitor Fox]

(page 15, upper left "876.M41 The Bloodtide Returns")

 

It's a contradiction between Grey Knights 1.0 and Grey Knights 2.0 essentially. Some things change, others stay the same, and there's no real way to say which is "correct" when both are accurate for the time at which they are presented.

 

Take the secrecy bit... the Imperium does not know about the warp and daemons. However, some individuals do know. One thing I liked with the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer is the bit at the end "classified information for Major rank and above" sort of thing that actually begins to inform the officer that daemons exist and what signs of possession to watch out for. Some people are let in on "the big secret" but they also tend to either be those in authority who help perpetrate the myth, or end up working for the Inquisition because they have seen the truth, kept their faith, and not fallen (yet). So it is possible for both the statement "Knowledge of Daemons and the Warp is unknown in the Imperium" (as a grand generalization) and "specific incidents of individuals knowing that which the average person doesn't" to both be true.

 

Perhaps the holy blood of the Sister's was used to help "protect" the knights by weakening the daemons who were gaining strength from the blood tide? I can "protect" myself by preemptively nuking enemy forces after all :( It's all a matter of grammatical interpretation and the story being written by the victor, and if there's one thing the Inquisition is very very good at it's creative interpretation. They are an organization made up of some of the only rational, scientific thinkers the Imperium has left. Now it does seem that they Knights used the blood as a shield. It is written in general 40K lore that ANYTHING can be corrupted by Chaos eventually, it is inevitable. It's a question of how long one can last before "taking a bath" so to speak. The Knights last long enough to essentially be incorruptible, but that does not mean that it cannot be done. The Bloodtide was a very exceptional thing, a major amount of corruption and supernatural "cheating". Since the daemons were getting extra power of badness, the Knights used extra power of goodness to counteract the "buff".

 

I don't think that makes any of it in contradiction of lore, it makes it the grey area open to interpretation. Oh wait... yeah, that's the moral place the Inquisition and Grey Knights live ;)

[Gentlemanloser]

Def, like Logan's Axe being made from a Daemon Weapon. Or the countless other instancies of encounters with Daemonic forces in the other Marine 'dexes.

 

Most Marines are mindwiped. Only the most valued are not. But then, this only happens if the GK/Inquisition is present. there are records of Dameonic attacks where the GK/Inq weren't there.

 

What would have been good, is if the Exorcists were designed to be the 'face' of Marine presence when the GK get involved. Mind wiipe everyone, but instead of unexplained gaps in chapters memories (Bother gillius, where have you been for the last year, and where's the rest of your Squad?), it could have been painted over with assistance by the Exorcists, instead of the existance of the Grey Knights.

 

As for Incorruptable.

 

Well, by the fluff, GK are incorruptable. Purifers are utterly incorruptable. And Crowe is immune.

 

So it's infintiy, infintiy +1 and infinity +100, I suppose. :(

[Azekai]

Now it does seem that they Knights used the blood as a shield. It is written in general 40K lore that ANYTHING can be corrupted by Chaos eventually, it is inevitable. It's a question of how long one can last before "taking a bath" so to speak. The Knights last long enough to essentially be incorruptible, but that does not mean that it cannot be done. The Bloodtide was a very exceptional thing, a major amount of corruption and supernatural "cheating". Since the daemons were getting extra power of badness, the Knights used extra power of goodness to counteract the "buff".

 

I wish that were true, and it would make more sense, but that really isn't the case. Which is another thing I dislike about the GK codex. Matt Ward seems to not understand the absoluteness of the term 'incorruptible.' If a GK is incorruptible, then paladins/purifiers/whatever cannot, by definition, be 'moar incorruptible!!!1!'

The vaunted 'incorruptibility' of the GKs is so harped on that I think it is impossible to simply say that it is an exaggeration or 'codex slant'- these guys will not, ever, EVER give in to chaos. Because Ward said so, repeatedly and incessantly.

Personally, I find this paragon of incorruptibility irritating, both in its unlikelihood and one-dimensionality. Perfection exists to be blighted, and everything fails, sooner or later. Why in the warp should these super special snowflakes be exempt? Regardless, it makes the slaughter of these sisters all the more idiotic.

[thade]

To be fair, there are in fact different levels of infinity. George Cantor demonstrated that the real numbers are "more numerous" than the counting numbers; it's pretty mind-blowing but there it is. Doesn't cover literary hyperbole of course, but then that really is the issue with crap writing, especially in sci-fi. The author keeps trying to upstage his own work at every step...sooner or later that will fail to scale.

[Inquisitor Fox]

Apparently "incorruptible" only means "within X standard deviations of pure" according to the Imperium ;) Whereas "utterly incorruptible" means "within X-Y standard deviations of pure where Y < X" and Immune to corruption means "Within X-X standard deviations of pure" or something.

 

I mean, we're also told that no Sister has fallen to Chaos, yet we are also given the tale of Miriael Sabathiel by the Black Library. How's that for consistancy? :(

[thade]

Sounds like it falls somewhere between "internal corporate propaganda" and "what they believe to be the truth", which is necessarily some distance from "whatever is actually true".

 

Language is, at times, more evident of conviction than of knowledge; that's especially the case with the Imperium.

[Inquisitor Fox]

Which is best summed up by this: "Everything you have been told is a lie."

 

This is really the cornerstone of 40K fluff... everything written seems to be just various interpretations of truth, as opposed to um... whats the word I want... impartial truth? Absolute truth? Meh... it's all in perspective and all relative really :(