BLACK BLΠFLY Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 According to Ward's fluff the GK are completely ruthless and don't seem to have any compassion. They will use anyone to achieve their objectives. G -_- Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259320-sisters-capable-of-shrouding-gk-with-their-blood/page/3/#findComment-3158100 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cmdr Shepard Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 According to Ward's fluff the GK are completely ruthless and don't seem to have any compassion. They will use anyone to achieve their objectives. G :lol: That's not the problem. Many persons don't blame this fluff because it shows GK as ruthless individuals with no compassion. They simply think the "shield with Sister blood" thing is a little illogical. Anyway we have a GK who killed a Daemon with the femur of a defunct Brother Captain and the fluff said it was one of the few "weapons" cabable of killing it... :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259320-sisters-capable-of-shrouding-gk-with-their-blood/page/3/#findComment-3158238 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 It might not be a problem for you but it's put some people off on GK. It wasn't necessary. G :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259320-sisters-capable-of-shrouding-gk-with-their-blood/page/3/#findComment-3158381 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 That really isn't the way it's presented in the Codex- the GKs were killing the sisters to get their blood, not for any other reason; if they pretended that they were doing the innocent, blameless sisters a favor while they slew them, that makes it even 'better.' Sisters, as the militant wing of the Ordo Hereticus, ARE good at withstanding psychic invasion. The sisters' faith is what allows them to be protected from the warp. They are not helpless against the darkness; they were not in danger of being corrupted, and despite the overwhelming presence of the daemon, they WERE PURE. This is a common misconception that I will correct, one wrong person at a time. The Adepta Sororitas are not the militant wing of the Ordo Hereticus. The Ordo Hereticus and the Adepta Sororitas were founded at the same time, to do similar jobs. However, they were founded by two completely separate organisations. The Ordo Hereticus was founded by the Adeptus Administratum and the High Lord of the Inquisition to investigate and root out crimes and corruption within the Ecclesiarchy. From there, they expanded their remit to hunting down rogue psykers along with, of course, continuing the standard Inquisitional duties. The Adepta Sororitas was founded by the Ecclesiarch to root out heresy and corruption within the Ecclesiarchy, as well as to replace the defunct Frateris Templars as a military force. From there, they expanded their remit to investigating corruption within the wider Imperium. Their faith and purity lends them some measure of defence against witches and rogue psykers, and so they are occasionally called upon for duty aboard the Black Ships when the Sisterhood of Silence is short-handed. By coincidence and remit, the Sororitas and the Hereticus may occasionally find themselves investigating the same targets. This has led to a history of co-operation between the two forces that has solidified into a firm alliance in many cases, although as always different Orders may have better or worse relationships with different Ordos. The whole concept that the Battle Sisters are part of the Ordo Hereticus comes from people reading "The Adepta Sororitas are often called upon to act as the militant arm of the Ordo Hereticus" in Codex: Witch Hunters and thinking that's the same as "The Adepta Sororitas are the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus", which it isn't. What the line actually means is that when the Hereticus need an army, they prefer to use Battle Sisters over Guardsmen or Space Marines. Nothing before or since Codex: Witch Hunters has made any attempt to claim that Sisters are to the Hereticus what Grey Knights are to the Malleus, yet this one idea seems constantly stuck in the minds of Inquisition fans, and to be honest, it's really freaking annoying for us Sisters fans (by which I mean: people who like the Sisters for the Sisters, rather than people who like the Sisters are inquisitional minions or slaaneshi-waiting-to-happen). It's a common misconception, and one that sadly will not die, even when confronted with overwhelming evidence. So, now you know. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259320-sisters-capable-of-shrouding-gk-with-their-blood/page/3/#findComment-3158523 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Fox Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 I can't quite agree with you entirely, Miko. If we look at the Codex: Witch Hunters, on page 2 are two quotes of the Sisters being the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus. "In conjunction with their Chamber Militant, the Adepta Sororitas - also known as the Sisters of Battle - the Ordo Hereticus hunt down and destroy the most insidious threats to Humanity, the enemy within: witchcraft, heresy and mutation." (Codex: Witch Hunters, page 2) "As well as forming the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus, the Sisters of Battle also provide the fighting arm of the Ecclesiarchy, the monolithic organisation devoted to the worship of the Emperor and the preaching of the Imperial Creed." (Codex: Witch Hunters, page 2) We have several additional quotes as well. "Though the Adepta Sororitas would forever remain the Ecclesiarchy's primary armed force, they would also become the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus." (Codex: Witch Hunters, page 5) "On a day-to-day basis, the duties of the Orders Militant are many and varied, quite aside from their role as the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus." (Codex: Witch Hunters, page 10) "The duties exercised by the Adepta Sororitas make them the ideal Chamber Militant for the Ordo Hereticus, which values their fervour and dedication above the services of any other organisation." (Codex: Witch Hunters, page 11) Technically the Sororitas are an arm of the Ecclesiarchy that also serves as the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus when they need to burn some Heretics (thus simultaneously wearing two hats). Why? Because the chances that heretics have infiltrated the Adepta Sororitas is essentially nil. They are loyal and there is no risk of them questioning what is going on or disobeying orders. You tell a group of Sisters that an entire organization is filled with Heretics they can and will burninate everything in that building with no questions and no remorse. The infuriating part is that while the Witch Hunter's Codex mentions the Convocation of Nephilim (page 6), it doesn't say what is written within it. It's also not mentioned in any other bit of fluff. My understanding is it is a formalization of the agreements between the Ordo Hereticus and the Adepta Sororitas, but we don't ever really get to know. The only real statement is this: "The Convocation stated that the Orders Militant of the Adepta Sororitas would place themselves at the disposal of the Ordo Hereticus whenever called to do so by a duly appointed Inquisitor, forming the Chamber Militant of the Witch Hunters." (Codex: Witch Hunters, page 6) More maddeningly is the next paragraph: "It is also whispered that the knowledge imparted to Dominica and her companions when brought before the Golden Throne coincided in some manner with the shadowy agenda of the Ordo Hereticus." (Codex: Witch Hunters, page 6) That quote doesn't have a lot with the current discussion, but it annoys me greatly because I want more details. The reason they are good at withstanding psychic invasion is due to their Faith in the Emperor more than any training or political allegiance. That being said, Inache's revelation of more fluff on the Bloodtide itself does make the section in the current Codex: Grey Knights make more sense. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259320-sisters-capable-of-shrouding-gk-with-their-blood/page/3/#findComment-3158590 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 Fine, so I misremembered the rubbish in C:WH. Doesn't change the fact that it was all retgonned out in the 6e rulebook and the white dwarf codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259320-sisters-capable-of-shrouding-gk-with-their-blood/page/3/#findComment-3158826 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 The White Dwarf Codex conatins fluff? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259320-sisters-capable-of-shrouding-gk-with-their-blood/page/3/#findComment-3158979 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacinda Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 It might not be a problem for you but it's put some people off on GK. It wasn't necessary. G B) The whole idea that GK killed SoB in order to complete a mission ... it makes me angry, which is probably the point of the story. The contrived plot devices and (dare I say it) "Space Magic ™” necessary to force the decision ultimately makes me roll my eyes at what should be an emotionally charged scene. So how about this: Planet is falling to the Bloodtide It's a Forge World so nuking the site from orbit is out of the question, Sisters of Battle land and start fighting Sororitas take heavy losses but only manage to fight to a stalemate Grey Knights arrive and take over, order the Sisters to leave because they are to kill every living thing on the planet once they land. Sisters refuse saying they can not make a fighting withdrawal and will not abandon their Sisters so a few can flee. GK land and slaughter Sisters along with everything else. Grey Knights annoint their armor and weapons with the Sisters' blood so that that the martyrs' spirits will be there to witness the end of the battle. Done. GK covered in SoB blood and no broken canon, no Space Magic and wild headcanon spins to answer why the incorruptible are worried about corruption. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259320-sisters-capable-of-shrouding-gk-with-their-blood/page/3/#findComment-3159176 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cmdr Shepard Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 It might not be a problem for you but it's put some people off on GK. It wasn't necessary. G :D The whole idea that GK killed SoB in order to complete a mission ... it makes me angry, which is probably the point of the story. The contrived plot devices and (dare I say it) "Space Magic ™” necessary to force the decision ultimately makes me roll my eyes at what should be an emotionally charged scene. So how about this: Planet is falling to the Bloodtide It's a Forge World so nuking the site from orbit is out of the question, Sisters of Battle land and start fighting Sororitas take heavy losses but only manage to fight to a stalemate Grey Knights arrive and take over, order the Sisters to leave because they are to kill every living thing on the planet once they land. Sisters refuse saying they can not make a fighting withdrawal and will not abandon their Sisters so a few can flee. GK land and slaughter Sisters along with everything else. Grey Knights annoint their armor and weapons with the Sisters' blood so that that the martyrs' spirits will be there to witness the end of the battle. Done. GK covered in SoB blood and no broken canon, no Space Magic and wild headcanon spins to answer why the incorruptible are worried about corruption. Personally I think that piece of fluff (the Ward's one not your, Jacinda :) , lacked of logic at all. It's indeed the epitome of Space Magic and it's not a positive thing :) As I said I know GK are an "by any means necessary" organization but sometimes you should think about alternatives... well at least think about them. Still the whole Ward's concept was not very logical. I have no issue with the "by any means necessary" attitude (it's 40K, after all and no one cares about others' lives) but at least make it logical. I'm not disturbed by the "scene" itself, I'm old enough to handle such things ;), but by its illogicality. I hoped GK fluff to be less Space Magic... Just my opinion, though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259320-sisters-capable-of-shrouding-gk-with-their-blood/page/3/#findComment-3159230 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 I actually fail to see how their choice was illogical. Barbaric? Yes. Gross? Yes. Horrific? Definitely. They were using Sorcery to shield themselves, which is basically riding the line (best case) but, honestly, their choice there was pure, cold logic. They needed to stop the demons and they needed to maximize their chances of doing so. Sisters fighting alongside them wouldn't have worked (or so they concluded, since - if their own Power Armor isn't proof against the Blood Tide - the poor Sisters were in even worse shape) so they went for Sorcery. I seldom see eye-to-eye with Ward's choices, but in this one case, he's actually not his usual insane self. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259320-sisters-capable-of-shrouding-gk-with-their-blood/page/3/#findComment-3159245 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cmdr Shepard Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 I actually fail to see how their choice was illogical. Barbaric? Yes. Gross? Yes. Horrific? Definitely. They were using Sorcery to shield themselves, which is basically riding the line (best case) but, honestly, their choice there was pure, cold logic. They needed to stop the demons and they needed to maximize their chances of doing so. Sisters fighting alongside them wouldn't have worked (or so they concluded, since - if their own Power Armor isn't proof against the Blood Tide - the poor Sisters were in even worse shape) so they went for Sorcery. I seldom see eye-to-eye with Ward's choices, but in this one case, he's actually not his usual insane self. I said it's illogical the piece of fluff not the in-universe decision. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259320-sisters-capable-of-shrouding-gk-with-their-blood/page/3/#findComment-3159248 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 The Sisters Power Armour withstood the Bloodtide, so why shouldn't the GKs *far* better PA? Aegis armour and hexagramic wards and all that. Woven Silver alloy and the best anti Daemon 'space magic' the Imperium could afford and create. It's illogical as the incorruptable were worried about corruption. Er, you're incorruptable... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259320-sisters-capable-of-shrouding-gk-with-their-blood/page/3/#findComment-3159259 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 If I were to honestly finger what I felt the real problem with this (and, really, Ward's stuff in general) is, it wouldn't be logical fallacy. It would be his penchant for needless escalation. Every thing he writes seems to try very hard to upstage whatever came before it and, at this point, it's gone behind tiresome. It's frustrating. Everything presented is so dangerous, so powerful, and so much more so than anything we've yet seen, that the very idea of being dangerous and powerful is trite and boring. It's what I see as the fundamental problem which Ward's work. So, I do agree with you both that the stuff isn't palatable, at the very least. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259320-sisters-capable-of-shrouding-gk-with-their-blood/page/3/#findComment-3159265 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azekai Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 Every thing he writes seems to try very hard to upstage whatever came before it and, at this point, it's gone behind tiresome. It's frustrating. Everything presented is so dangerous, so powerful, and so much more so than anything we've yet seen, that the very idea of being dangerous and powerful is trite and boring. It's what I see as the fundamental problem which Ward's work. So, I do agree with you both that the stuff isn't palatable, at the very least. Hear, hear. It is really just a case of poor storytelling. Rather than building up characters and developing them, we need to care about them because they are a big deal and they are really super awesome and capable of tearing open the chests of daemon primarchs, so there. As in the Bloodtide case, there may be decent reasons to kill your allies, but it should be gutwrenching and emotionally taxing, rather than "lol we get a +10 to incorruptibility bonus." As the ineffable gentlemanloser previously stated: Er, you're incorruptible... So in that regard, it was a bad bit of fluff and illogical. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259320-sisters-capable-of-shrouding-gk-with-their-blood/page/3/#findComment-3159303 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacinda Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 So his next codex will have unstopable zombie pirate ninjas of death that are immune to all weapons, warp powers and tax collectors so the hero had to strangle them all with the emperor's colon? One at a time? In a black hole? Located in the center of the sun? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259320-sisters-capable-of-shrouding-gk-with-their-blood/page/3/#findComment-3159304 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 That's Lion 'el Jonson in a nutshell isn't it? Or maybe the new 'Cypher'. Jacinda, your alternate version of the story was *awesome*. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259320-sisters-capable-of-shrouding-gk-with-their-blood/page/3/#findComment-3159331 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azekai Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 So his next codex will have unstopable zombie pirate ninjas of death that are immune to all weapons, warp powers and tax collectors so the hero had to strangle them all with the emperor's colon? One at a time? In a black hole? Located in the center of the sun? You know it. :lol: In the Grim Awesome of the Far Future, there is only Pwn! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259320-sisters-capable-of-shrouding-gk-with-their-blood/page/3/#findComment-3159332 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 Now I've mentioned Cypher, with the DA dex up and coming, I can't imagine *how* he's going to 'Draigo' Cypher... Uber gunslinger, immortal, pops up anywhere. Obviously will be able to reroll the gets hot/armour save versus gets hot for his Plasma Pistol (why is Cypher not running dual Plasma Pistols now!!!) like the rest of the Dangles. Cypher managed to get to the Golden Throne and leave a "wuz 'ere m39.999" tag. Punched out the Avatar *and* Draigo, at the same time. Made Slaneesh fall in love with him. What else? Oh, bro-fisted some 'crons and stole a rare STC from Mars to give to his bro-fist 'cron buddies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259320-sisters-capable-of-shrouding-gk-with-their-blood/page/3/#findComment-3159337 Share on other sites More sharing options...
playedsincedaemonhunters Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 Read the grey knight series with Justicar Alaric, book three delves deeply into the limits of the Biggest Badass the Grey knights have. He ALMOST* is corrupted. then he mind :D the demon doing it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259320-sisters-capable-of-shrouding-gk-with-their-blood/page/3/#findComment-3160316 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 What does ben counters :) book have to do on canon GK fluff? For example, we would have Chaplains, like Durendin. But we don't. That book is worth little more than use as a paperwieght, sadly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259320-sisters-capable-of-shrouding-gk-with-their-blood/page/3/#findComment-3160367 Share on other sites More sharing options...
playedsincedaemonhunters Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 Sadly yes, but id like to believe Matt Ward has been tainted by exposure to the warp and that Non-Canon, Author Based material is much better than Wards toilet run-off. Now that you mention Durendin, Few things would be scarier than a Grey Knight chaplain...... i stress the few... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259320-sisters-capable-of-shrouding-gk-with-their-blood/page/3/#findComment-3160448 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFacelessMan Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 I haven't been around long enough to develop the obvious Ward hatred some have, but it seems to me that a codex is more in line with propaganda than any other piece of 40k fluff. Especially on the Imperial side. I don't have my copy of Daemonhunter handy, but I'm pretty sure there are passages with Inquisitorial seals on them. I'm not sure about Codex: GK, but I'd be willing to bet there are one or two in there as well. Who else would embellish and blow out of proportion the deeds of Imperial servants to the point of disbelief? Just remember disbelief is heresy so you better believe it anyways. As far as the bloodtide goes, I've read Hunt for Voldorius which is that reference of the Bloodtide. So I think the theory that the armor is what's being preserved by the sister's blood holds a lot of weight. Also if I remember correctly in the entry in Codex: GK it says that several Sisters had already succumbed to the bloodtide, so the ones left were the last holdouts of loyalists on the entire planet. The Sisters were about to be overrun, and the GK's arrived just before they were, sacrificed them, and then anointed the armor and weapons before wading through streets of blood to reach the bloodthirster. Another point is that the bloodthirster was contained within a stasis field within a statue of the Emperor within a cathedral. This means that it was contained quite likely after He was interred on the Golden Throne. And since it was a big bad bloodthirster, odds are that it was the GK's that did the original sealing. With what we know now thanks to The Emperor's Gift, it stands to reason that the GK task force dispatched knew exactly what and how to deal with it upon arriving. This probably wasn't a split second decision to just murder some sisters. It was calculated to save the planet and possibly billions. The bloodtide that Voldorius unleashed in 034.M38 killed billions and wiped out whole planets, and was a great enough sacrifice that the Ruinous Powers elevated him to a daemon prince. And that was just an Alpha Legion warlord. What would a bloodthirster of Khorne do? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259320-sisters-capable-of-shrouding-gk-with-their-blood/page/3/#findComment-3162085 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 it stands to reason that the GK task force dispatched knew exactly what and how to deal with it upon arriving. This probably wasn't a split second decision to just murder some sisters. So it wasn't an "AMG! We're all doomed! Quick do something DESPERATE!" decision. But rather a course of action they *already* knew they'd have to take, before the Prognosticators sent them there. And that's, better? :/ GK-BC: "GAIS, We're going to a world where our Daemonic resistant Aegis Suits (with Truesilver lining!) and Psychic prowess are no match for a Bloodthirster. But it's ok, I've already made sure there's an Order of SoB sent there, so when we arrive, we can kill them for their blessed blood!" :rolleyes Why don't the GK just keep some SoB on tap back at Titan, so they can coat themselves before going out on every mission? Edit: This post isn't aimed at you Faceless, in any fashion. Purely at Ward. No matter how you try to spin his fluff, you cannot make it palatable. :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259320-sisters-capable-of-shrouding-gk-with-their-blood/page/3/#findComment-3162545 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 It's pretty bad but unfortunately he writes a lot of the new fluff. I agree with thade - he has to always go over the top to the point of silliness. Fluff is something I think draws a lot of people to the game too. Anyways I imagine Cypher will automatically kill one enemy model each turn he is present on the table and have rerollable 2++ save plus immunity to JotWW and like insta killing powers. Cypher is also an awesome orator and propagandist so at the start of every game you field Cypher you roll to see how much of your opponent's army joins yours. Should be awesome. ;) G :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259320-sisters-capable-of-shrouding-gk-with-their-blood/page/3/#findComment-3162576 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 PMSL! 2+ roll to seize the initative? With a Reroll? :down: BS8, Deadshot, of course. Edit: I bet his Plasma Pistol ignores Invulnerable Saves! :confused: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259320-sisters-capable-of-shrouding-gk-with-their-blood/page/3/#findComment-3162597 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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