The thousand son Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Greetings all. My master, Tchar, just informed me of a hard to notice problem with allies (excluding "battle brothers"). Page 112 (allies) reads "Units in your army treat Allies of Convenience as enemy units that cannot be charged, shot, targeted with psychic powers or have templates or blast markers placed over them." - in bold even. (Same page, desperate - "Desperate Allies are treated exactly like Allies of Convenience. Furthermore...") So problem beeing? A model is not allowed to move within 1" of an enemy it is not charging. So... deployment issues, mild such. Possible movement issues, mild such. But more importantly.... almost impossible to get off a dual charge, or charge in to help, with allies (as you most likely then would have to get within 1" of an enemy you cannot charge). I know of nothing that contradicts that handicap. And I like it - since it will force people to really think hard about bringing in Grey Knight allies (as an example, since they have no battle brothers). Thoughts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259413-hidden-problem-with-allies-of-conveniencedesperate/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Isn't one of the only times you can get within 1" of an enemy when you are charging? That and Tank shocking. :sweat: Oh, could you Tank Shock one of your 'enemy' allies? Just shy of claiming that objective? Tank shcok your own unit onto it! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259413-hidden-problem-with-allies-of-conveniencedesperate/#findComment-3155551 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The thousand son Posted August 22, 2012 Author Share Posted August 22, 2012 Dont you have to charge the enemy to get to move within 1"? Hence the advantage of "interlocking" two units (forcing the opponent to charge both and thus lose charging bonuses)? (Point beeing you CANT charge the enemy ally and thus are not allowed within 1" of him) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259413-hidden-problem-with-allies-of-conveniencedesperate/#findComment-3155555 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysere Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Isn't one of the only times you can get within 1" of an enemy when you are charging? That and Tank shocking. :sweat: Oh, could you Tank Shock one of your 'enemy' allies? Just shy of claiming that objective? Tank shcok your own unit onto it! That would be the one time they fail and run off screaming. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259413-hidden-problem-with-allies-of-conveniencedesperate/#findComment-3155558 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The thousand son Posted August 22, 2012 Author Share Posted August 22, 2012 Oh, could you Tank Shock one of your 'enemy' allies? Just shy of claiming that objective? Tank shcok your own unit onto it! And to answer that - according to page 112 (allies) convenience/desperate can never claim objectives anyway... ********** - oh sorry, just reread it. Convenience can indeed claim/contest! Only desperate is non-scoring etc. My bad. ********** Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259413-hidden-problem-with-allies-of-conveniencedesperate/#findComment-3155559 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Unless your the GK and have used The Grand Strategy on them. :sweat: Codex > BRB. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259413-hidden-problem-with-allies-of-conveniencedesperate/#findComment-3155560 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysere Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Oh, could you Tank Shock one of your 'enemy' allies? Just shy of claiming that objective? Tank shcok your own unit onto it! And to answer that - according to page 112 (allies) convenience/desperate can never claim objectives anyway... Only for Desperate Allies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259413-hidden-problem-with-allies-of-conveniencedesperate/#findComment-3155562 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The thousand son Posted August 22, 2012 Author Share Posted August 22, 2012 Still i have the main question.... Getting within 1" of an enemy you´re not charging! Doesnt this mean you in practice will never get to help out an ally (convenience/desp..) in assault or launch a dual charge? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259413-hidden-problem-with-allies-of-conveniencedesperate/#findComment-3155569 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysere Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Still i have the main question.... Getting within 1" of an enemy you´re not charging! Doesnt this mean you in practice will never get to help out an ally (convenience/desp..) in assault or launch a dual charge? Looks like it, maybe if you charge a big enough unit you can but one of you might get separated as casualties are dealt. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259413-hidden-problem-with-allies-of-conveniencedesperate/#findComment-3155573 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The thousand son Posted August 22, 2012 Author Share Posted August 22, 2012 Still i have the main question.... Getting within 1" of an enemy you´re not charging! Doesnt this mean you in practice will never get to help out an ally (convenience/desp..) in assault or launch a dual charge? Looks like it, maybe if you charge a big enough unit you can but one of you might get separated as casualties are dealt. Kinda thought so. Was pretty sure. An awsome nerf to allies (not beeing battle brothers). I love it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259413-hidden-problem-with-allies-of-conveniencedesperate/#findComment-3155575 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Getting within 1" of an enemy you´re not charging! Doesnt this mean you in practice will never get to help out an ally (convenience/desp..) in assault or launch a dual charge? Not a problem when you're charging to help them out? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259413-hidden-problem-with-allies-of-conveniencedesperate/#findComment-3155587 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 The rules state that you cannot bet within 1 inch of the enemy unless charging into combat. It does not specify that this only goes for the unit(s) you are charging. It's a blanket allowance to get within 1 inch of enemy models when performing charges. The old trick of mixing two units to avoid being charged didn't work in 5th edition, and it doesn't work now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259413-hidden-problem-with-allies-of-conveniencedesperate/#findComment-3155722 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The thousand son Posted August 23, 2012 Author Share Posted August 23, 2012 The rules state that you cannot bet within 1 inch of the enemy unless charging into combat. It does not specify that this only goes for the unit(s) you are charging. It's a blanket allowance to get within 1 inch of enemy models when performing charges. The old trick of mixing two units to avoid being charged didn't work in 5th edition, and it doesn't work now. You could never avoid beeing charged. You forced him to fight both units, which in 6th removes charge bonuses (new rule). And if i can be in btb with someone without fighting them, as long as I charged something else, I can abuse that even without allies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259413-hidden-problem-with-allies-of-conveniencedesperate/#findComment-3155915 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The thousand son Posted August 23, 2012 Author Share Posted August 23, 2012 Getting within 1" of an enemy you´re not charging! Doesnt this mean you in practice will never get to help out an ally (convenience/desp..) in assault or launch a dual charge? Not a problem when you're charging to help them out? The allies you intend to help counts as enemies you cannot target. Not as friends. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259413-hidden-problem-with-allies-of-conveniencedesperate/#findComment-3155916 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 The rules state that you cannot bet within 1 inch of the enemy unless charging into combat. It does not specify that this only goes for the unit(s) you are charging. It's a blanket allowance to get within 1 inch of enemy models when performing charges. The old trick of mixing two units to avoid being charged didn't work in 5th edition, and it doesn't work now. You could never avoid beeing charged. You forced him to fight both units, which in 6th removes charge bonuses (new rule). And if i can be in btb with someone without fighting them, as long as I charged something else, I can abuse that even without allies. Nope, you can't force someone to charge multiple units. Nor can you be in base contact without fighting. But you can pass within 1 inch of an enemy while you make your charge move, and once you are in base contact you could be within 1 inch of an enemy unit you haven't charged, though you wouldn't be in base contact. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259413-hidden-problem-with-allies-of-conveniencedesperate/#findComment-3155929 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The thousand son Posted August 23, 2012 Author Share Posted August 23, 2012 The rules state that you cannot bet within 1 inch of the enemy unless charging into combat. It does not specify that this only goes for the unit(s) you are charging. It's a blanket allowance to get within 1 inch of enemy models when performing charges. The old trick of mixing two units to avoid being charged didn't work in 5th edition, and it doesn't work now. You could never avoid beeing charged. You forced him to fight both units, which in 6th removes charge bonuses (new rule). And if i can be in btb with someone without fighting them, as long as I charged something else, I can abuse that even without allies. Nope, you can't force someone to charge multiple units. Nor can you be in base contact without fighting. But you can pass within 1 inch of an enemy while you make your charge move, and once you are in base contact you could be within 1 inch of an enemy unit you haven't charged, though you wouldn't be in base contact. Fair enough. Still gives allies serios issues, at the latest at pile-ins. No base contact! (Same goes for interlocked - fine charge one.. Now try to pile in with your higher initiative) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259413-hidden-problem-with-allies-of-conveniencedesperate/#findComment-3156029 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The thousand son Posted August 23, 2012 Author Share Posted August 23, 2012 Also - what rule covers the no base contact without fighting - or that you can be within 1" of an enemy when NOT charging (prolonged combat for instance)? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259413-hidden-problem-with-allies-of-conveniencedesperate/#findComment-3156032 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The thousand son Posted August 23, 2012 Author Share Posted August 23, 2012 My point would be - i think you're wrong. I know you can pass a unit to charge another, but i cant see the rules supporting volentarily ending up within 1" of someone you're not fighting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259413-hidden-problem-with-allies-of-conveniencedesperate/#findComment-3156036 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 My point would be - i think you're wrong. I know you can pass a unit to charge another, but i cant see the rules supporting volentarily ending up within 1" of someone you're not fighting. The rules have always supported it, even in 5th. The allowance to move within 1" of enemy models during the assault phase is what enables it. There are no longer any compulsory charges now that Rage has been changed. You can safely charge around one unit/model to assault another and still pass within 1" of the intervening model. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259413-hidden-problem-with-allies-of-conveniencedesperate/#findComment-3156096 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 The allies you intend to help counts as enemies you cannot target. Not as friends. I still don't see the issue. You're worried that you won't be able to help your AoC/DA in CC, as you can't get within 1" of 'enemy' minis. Where as I'm saying that if you're going to help them out in CC, you need to charge into CC, and when charging into CC you're allowed to get within 1" of 'enemy' minis. When else would you want to get closer than 1" to your AoC/DA that this restriction would come into play? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259413-hidden-problem-with-allies-of-conveniencedesperate/#findComment-3156122 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acebaur Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 Where as I'm saying that if you're going to help them out in CC, you need to charge into CC, and when charging into CC you're allowed to get within 1" of 'enemy' minis. I was going to say that they still had to remain 1" away from enemy units they were not charging, but that seems to have been done away with. Now the only restriction is that you cannot move into btb with a model you are not charging. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259413-hidden-problem-with-allies-of-conveniencedesperate/#findComment-3156270 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 Gentlemanloser and Acebaur get it spot on in my book. In the assault phase, if you charge the 1" restriction is removed, the B2B isn't. So you can still go within 1" of them, just not in B2B. When it rolls round to the next turn and you're still in combat it doesn't matter because being locked in combat overrides the 1" restriction. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259413-hidden-problem-with-allies-of-conveniencedesperate/#findComment-3156322 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The thousand son Posted August 23, 2012 Author Share Posted August 23, 2012 Gentlemanloser and Acebaur get it spot on in my book. In the assault phase, if you charge the 1" restriction is removed, the B2B isn't. So you can still go within 1" of them, just not in B2B. When it rolls round to the next turn and you're still in combat it doesn't matter because being locked in combat overrides the 1" restriction. Where does it say that locked in combat allows within 1" of an opponent you´re not fighting? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259413-hidden-problem-with-allies-of-conveniencedesperate/#findComment-3156439 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 Gentlemanloser and Acebaur get it spot on in my book. In the assault phase, if you charge the 1" restriction is removed, the B2B isn't. So you can still go within 1" of them, just not in B2B. When it rolls round to the next turn and you're still in combat it doesn't matter because being locked in combat overrides the 1" restriction. So i take it that way of seeing it forces the allies to not get btb, which will really put a number on that combat anyway. Will get VERY messy. (Hard to pile in then) Well to be honest, I just wouldn't care if it got to that point, and would just let it go. It's a rare occurrence that doesn't really mean much IMO, so I would be a little lenient there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259413-hidden-problem-with-allies-of-conveniencedesperate/#findComment-3156441 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 Even if true about b2b, I doubt that was the intent. And if it becomes an issue, I'm betting it will get FAQ'd. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259413-hidden-problem-with-allies-of-conveniencedesperate/#findComment-3156448 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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