Rune Priests: A Theory

[Siege40k]

So if I can expound on the fact that the wolves do really believe in the spirits etc of Fenris granting them powers, wouldn't that belief in spirits bring them the same censure that Lorgar and the 17th faced because of worshiping a god/spirit....

 

The same thing has always bothered me about the mechanicum, however it is explained that a fair share believe the big E to be the Omnissiah..and they have a whole "same empire, different status" thing going on.

 

I just don't understand how the wolves were never punished for their transgression unless they were allowed to keep their 'seers'. I want to say it is because of the function of the wolves and their use as executioners....

[Baluc]

That more than anything is why I feel if they were given an exception it was warranted.

Except that there is no mention of them ever being given any such exception. The Emperor's Edict was crystal clear, the Wolves appear to have chosen to play a game of semantics and chose to keep their Rune Priests because they were never part of a Librarius Department (they obvious also chose to miss/ignore the part of the Edict that specifically forbade any member of the Legions (including the Primarchs) from employing psychic abilities).

 

Edit - Willful ignorance is the right of it.

 

Chaplian ChonkE has the right of it I believe. I don't think anyone can deny they are hypocrites with out of world knowledge, but to the Rout what they know is as Godsmote puts it, there is a verse, and a underverse, an uppland and a hell. And nothing that he's seen in 80 years as a Astartes has changed his mind at all. Dan Abnett addresses the duality, of the Rout in the novel itself.

 

Hold on... is there any actual passages that have Rune Priest using their powers post nikea? I know they keep their status, and mind walk occasionally in Prospero Burns but actually shooting lightning from the ass, or is it just a ceremonial wise man position?

 

Second I can't see Nikea actually being forever. The Big E knew what was out there, and the weapons he would need. Or is that why the Astartes were legion so he could attrition any battle with warp entities. But even that would only get you so far, it took a librarian to deal the the Great Unclean One in Decent of Angels.

[Legatus]

I wonder how the Legions dealt with Ork Weirdboys, Eldar Warlocks/Farseers, or Cult Sorceres once they were no longer allowed to have psykers of their own...

[Wade Garrett]

I wonder how the Legions dealt with Ork Weirdboys, Eldar Warlocks/Farseers, or Cult Sorceres once they were no longer allowed to have psykers of their own...

 

Well, in Flight of the Eisenstern they handled the Chaotic Warsingers with a combination of aerial bombardment and "Everybody shoot at the glowing one!" althought that also resulted in a lot of Death Guard and World Eater casualties.

Perhaps after Nikea, the Emperor planned to expand the Sisters of Silence to back up the Astartes, with the battle of Prospero serving as a test run for this idea? I know Blanks are rare, but then again, so are Psykers that can make it through Astartes selection, plus you never have to worry about Pariahs suddenly exploding into Keepers of Secrets or Bloodthirsters.

[Captain Idaho]

Thousand Sons were products of their culture. They are raised to believe knowledge is power and all knowledge can be mastered.

 

The Thousand Sons deserved to die, they broke the Emperor's edict despite the most fearsome of threats from the Emperor in person, but they also ruined his plans and set the Loyalist side back (i.e. he couldn't direct his forces due to his busy defence of Terra). The Sons of Fenris? They deserved to be punished, publically, since they also broke the Emperor's edict. However, they didn't almost destroy Terra and set back the loyalists forever.

 

To say the Space Wolves are justified is wrong. They are hypocrits at worst, naive fools at best. They are also lucky the Heresy occurred, because the Custodes would have reported them to the Emperor and then they would have been censored too.

 

That culture didn't also include summon "bound" daemons. The final battle of Prospero burns is somewhat ironic, as the consequences of ignoring the edict, are what finally cause the loss of control, that the wolves feared. Losing control of their tutelaries (sp), rampant mutation, etc.

 

I wasn't trying to justify the wolves actions, mearly set the scene for their attitude. Hypocrits for sure, but I don't think anyone could call the Wolves naive, I think they more than anyone has the required respect for the "unknown" aka the warp. If they were naive they wouldn't even have Rune Priest, they accept it as a neccessary evil, its only the Rune Priest themselves that make distintions and even they know that "sorcery" is just a breath away. That more than anything is why I feel if they were given an exception it was warranted. You read their aversion to it, the anti-magic is ingrained in their society pre-astartes. Just as the Sons obsession with isoteric knowledge pushed them to extremes, the opposite attitute let the wolves face down.

 

Use of Daemons by the Thousand Sons was an extention of their culture, in much the same way the use of power armour and power weapons was an extention of the Space Wolves (and could you imagine the glee a Fenrisian would feel when he is introduced to a power axe for the first time?).

 

Anyway, I'd like to clarify what I meant earlier by naive fools. I was actually referencing not just their beliefe their abilities are different to everyone elses, but the idea that they too were beyond censorship. Had the Heresy not occurred, the Thousand Sons would still have been attacked by Russ, the Custodes and Sisters of Silence, but afterwards the Custodes report to the Emperor might have been damaging.

 

Or not, depending how observerant they were really.

 

Obviously "fool" was a hyperbole, because the Wolves generally are the least foolish out of the Legions due to their pragmatic approach.

[Týr]

Agreed Baluc. Blessed is the mind too small for self-doubt.

 

The Wolves arent naive as a child but willfully ignorant. Space Wolves BELIEVE that their powers are gifts from the fury of Fenris. They BELIEVE in ghosts, spirits, daemons and otherworldly phenomena. They believe in Heaven and Hell. They accept this as an everyday aspect of their culture and life as both Fenrisians and Marines. There is no flexibility in this belief because it is part of what makes them Fenrisian to the core. This belief helps shield them from the Warp with the talismans and tails and teeth which ward them from evil magicks. Some might call their actions heathen or hypocritical but the Wolves armor themselves in their ignorance and are better protected from the Warp because of it. Drawing water from a stream isnt particularly dangerous even if there is a risk of being dragged in by the current. It is much safer than wading into the stream attempting to dam it, make it your own tributary and finding too late the undertow was unbelievably strong and too much for you to handle. The Wolves never tried to dam the river of the Warp; they know their place in the World Storm and their hypocrisy and culture keeps them safer than most.

 

It dosen't say anywhere that the wolves do BELIVE in spirits and other stuff. You are making your own asumptions fact. No one truly understands the wolves, so we don't know how their minds work. They put on the mask of savages in front of others. And Hawser's observations didn't explain the "real" wolves more clearly.

Most likely what you take as hard fact and evidence for their belif, is most likely just another way they have of confusing outsiders.

[Rysaer]

This is one of the things that really annoyed me throughout the HH series.

 

Being perfectly honest, I'm not the biggest fans of Space Wolves, but this contradiction really annoyed me.

 

I always just placed it down to a subtle form of ignorance/naivety, the Space Wolves have in my mind always viewed theirs as something unrelated to the warp or psykers, their powers are both natural to the user and use nature themself. This is also more justifiable as they really use them more as a defence rather than an offensive option. (Although playing my local SW players I'm beginning to think differently these days ;))

 

However after the mention of the Storm Seers etc, I have become slightly annoyed again because I didn't think of it from that angle and now that I am, my acceptance of why the Wolves act the way they do is becoming more and more unjustifiable.

 

The only thing that I can settle on my mind now is that 'The Big E' just decided:

 

'Man, it'd be funny if I used a legion who openly practice magic and use them to take out a legion that openly practice sorcery and see who wins? and the loser doesn't get to keep their powers. ;)'

 

('The Big E' is an open user of ;), I have emails to prove it, although he does ocassionally lol,

for example, My favoured son betrayed me lol! fml.)

[Baluc]

Thousand Sons were products of their culture. They are raised to believe knowledge is power and all knowledge can be mastered.

 

The Thousand Sons deserved to die, they broke the Emperor's edict despite the most fearsome of threats from the Emperor in person, but they also ruined his plans and set the Loyalist side back (i.e. he couldn't direct his forces due to his busy defence of Terra). The Sons of Fenris? They deserved to be punished, publically, since they also broke the Emperor's edict. However, they didn't almost destroy Terra and set back the loyalists forever.

 

To say the Space Wolves are justified is wrong. They are hypocrits at worst, naive fools at best. They are also lucky the Heresy occurred, because the Custodes would have reported them to the Emperor and then they would have been censored too.

 

That culture didn't also include summon "bound" daemons. The final battle of Prospero burns is somewhat ironic, as the consequences of ignoring the edict, are what finally cause the loss of control, that the wolves feared. Losing control of their tutelaries (sp), rampant mutation, etc.

 

I wasn't trying to justify the wolves actions, mearly set the scene for their attitude. Hypocrits for sure, but I don't think anyone could call the Wolves naive, I think they more than anyone has the required respect for the "unknown" aka the warp. If they were naive they wouldn't even have Rune Priest, they accept it as a neccessary evil, its only the Rune Priest themselves that make distintions and even they know that "sorcery" is just a breath away. That more than anything is why I feel if they were given an exception it was warranted. You read their aversion to it, the anti-magic is ingrained in their society pre-astartes. Just as the Sons obsession with isoteric knowledge pushed them to extremes, the opposite attitute let the wolves face down.

 

Use of Daemons by the Thousand Sons was an extention of their culture, in much the same way the use of power armour and power weapons was an extention of the Space Wolves (and could you imagine the glee a Fenrisian would feel when he is introduced to a power axe for the first time?).

 

Anyway, I'd like to clarify what I meant earlier by naive fools. I was actually referencing not just their beliefe their abilities are different to everyone elses, but the idea that they too were beyond censorship. Had the Heresy not occurred, the Thousand Sons would still have been attacked by Russ, the Custodes and Sisters of Silence, but afterwards the Custodes report to the Emperor might have been damaging.

 

Or not, depending how observerant they were really.

 

Obviously "fool" was a hyperbole, because the Wolves generally are the least foolish out of the Legions due to their pragmatic approach.

 

You've highlighted the difference. The Rout have never spoken out against psykers, I've re-read Thousand sons and Prospero Burns looking for it. They employ them as well. What Ohthere Wyrdmake points out in the typical Rout fashion is their is a difference and its not subtle. That the Sons fail to accept is their is a difference between taking water from a well(psyker ability), and swimming into the middle of the ocean turning the tide in the direction you want it to run, and building an effigy to your greatness (sorcery). Look at where sorcery led the sons, daemon summoning, blood sacrifice. Even without the powers these actions are sufficient for censor. In the end the blame has to rest with the Emperor, I'm sure he thought he would have all the time in the galaxy once he solved this Webway issue to instruct on the difference or hand hold the Thousand Sons to control or heed the danger of powers he himself has used, but once again haste makes waste.

 

The psyker uses what he can control, and heeds the danger of thinking your are in control. The sorcerer pushes, and uses that which is not his own, thinking himself beyond danger. Personally I feel like the librarium would have been rebuilt in time, under a more pragmatic method, less like school more like a brutal selection camp. Much like the 40k librarium, where those who are found to not have enough control or the right mentality are "dealt" with.

 

Thiese might be arbitrary differences, but I haven't failed to notice despite The Sons mocking the Rout for their "fumblings", at the end of the day, even once freed of the confines of Imperial law, right and wrong, the Sons continued to dwindle, and the new reformed Librarium has thrived.

[Lord_Caerolion]

The problem though, again, is that the Emperor outlawed all psychic use in the Legions, not just sorcerors. Even the "safe" psykers of the Wolves should have been illegal, regardless of the differences between the two.

[Captain Idaho]

There isn't a difference in what they are doing, though there may be a difference in why and how. The only difference between the Thousand Sons' employment of Psychic powers and that of the Space Wolves is the former are less careful and restrained.

 

Consider it from the eyes of Imperial Law and the Emperor, and most importantly, the citizens and organisations that make up the Imperium. Use of Psychic powers is prohibited in the Legions, no matter the cause or how minor. Just because the Space Wolves use Psychic powers in a more subtle, less extensive way doesn't mean they haven't broken the rules.

 

Deliverance Lost is an example of how subtle and necessary use of Psychic powers just once causes the Custodes to turn their weapons even on Corax, and this was after the Heresy had started!

 

Look at it this way. Your dad says both you and your brother aren't allowed to ride your motorbikes anymore. You ride yours still out of practicallity; to the shops and work, because you need to make money and the shopping is too heavy to carry back. Your brother also ignores the directive from your father; not just riding his motorbike around the town but also races around town illegally and doesn't wear his protective gear like you do.

 

Things come to a head when your brother causes a big crash riding his bike, killing several people. You are asked to bring him home with your uncle, so you ride your bike to get him. Your uncle tells your dad you exactly what happened.

 

Now, what is your daddy going to do, let you off because you were responsible or punish you because you broke his rules also? He might be busy dealing with all the fall out of your brother's actions, but there will be a reckoning and woe betide you if you're caught using it again.

 

See what I mean?

 

Incidently, I believe Russ did argue against Magnus and the Thousand Sons.

[pingo]

The Rout have never spoken out against psykers, I've re-read Thousand sons and Prospero Burns looking for it.

Othere Wyrdmake was the first person to testify against Magnus and the Thousand Sons at Nikaea.

 

After witnessing the flesh change, Russ berated Magnus saying that he would hold his tongue no more and there would be reckoning between them.

[Baluc]

The Rout have never spoken out against psykers, I've re-read Thousand sons and Prospero Burns looking for it.

Othere Wyrdmake was the first person to testify against Magnus and the Thousand Sons at Nikaea.

 

After witnessing the flesh change, Russ berated Magnus saying that he would hold his tongue no more and there would be reckoning between them.

 

 

The speak about sorcery, to the Rout there is a difference between the too.

 

And Captain Idaho, I actually agree with you. But I'm not sure just having Rune Priest is going to be enough to force punishment, not when we don't have any evidence of them using powers. Without powers, they are essentially just the wiseman to the barbarian kings, and the imperium doesn't interfere in the organization of the legions. Even when faced down with a Horus shaped daemon, they don't use any powers!

[Captain Idaho]

Agreed. The Psychic Mariines were allowed to exist and return back to their Companies, so likely it's not so easy to point fingers unless someone witnesed them using their powers.

[Baluc]

Yeah! Consensous!

[Chaplain ChonkE]

I wonder how the Legions dealt with Ork Weirdboys, Eldar Warlocks/Farseers, or Cult Sorceres once they were no longer allowed to have psykers of their own...

With Bolter and Chainsword of course ^_^

[daveNYC]

The Rout have never spoken out against psykers, I've re-read Thousand sons and Prospero Burns looking for it.

Othere Wyrdmake was the first person to testify against Magnus and the Thousand Sons at Nikaea.

 

After witnessing the flesh change, Russ berated Magnus saying that he would hold his tongue no more and there would be reckoning between them.

 

Because if there's one thing the wolves want nothing to do with, it's legions that use psykers and have issues with out of control mutations. :huh:

[Grimtooth]

You have to either take the new fluff as canon or insist on the old fluff as canon. You cannot combine the two as they contradict eachother.

 

Prior to a Thousand Sons, it was sorcery that was specifically banned by the edict with further fluff pointing to the banning of psykers within the Legions. That is all Collected Visions fluff. With the new fluff that details the Council of Nikea, we have a specific target of the edict per the Emperor's own words and reasons. The new fluff actually supports the long held nickname of the Council of Nikea as being the Trial of Magnus the Red because the Emperor's edict specifically targets Magnus, his Librarian project, and his Legion's continued pursuit of arcane knowledge. There is an instance in the novel that the Emperor is specifically talking to Magnus and he replies saying that he has mastered said knowledge.

 

Now as how this relates to the rune priests and librarians, rune priests were never at anytime librarians. The influence and teachings of Magnus and his Librarian project were never part of the rune priests creation, instruction, or history. The OP brings up the White Scars and Storm Seers, however Storm Seers are indeed librarians of Magnus' Librarian project fully. Their formation, their instruction, their knowledge is a product of the Librarian project. So the comparison between rune priests and storm seers is incorrect.

 

As to the calls of hypocrits, it is unfounded. This is not only based upon the Emperor's own words when passing the edict in a Thousand Sons, but also the reasons he gives behind his edict.

 

If you read the first encounter between Kasper Hawser and Wyrmdrake in Prospero Burns, they get into a minor debate about thristing for too much knowledge. Hawser puts forth that there is always something more to know whereas Wyrmdrake insists that there is danger in knowing too much. If we then examine the reasons given by the Emperor for the edict, we see that the Space Wolves mentality practically mirrors that of the Emperor.

 

So when taken into the full context,

 

The Emperor banned librarians from his Legions due to their "tainted" course of instruction by Magnus' Librarian project. The entire program followed Magnus' philosphy of a quest to power through an unending quest of knowledge. As explained by the Emperor, seeking power through the search for knowledge without first gaining wisdom was what was wrong with Magnus' philosophy and thus the inherent problem with the Librarian project.

 

On the otherhand, the rune priests were never part of Magnus' philosphy. In fact their entire cultural belief, not just with regard to psychic powers, is based on gaining wisdom and passing it along via the spoken word and not the written word. I forget which novel it was at the moment, but it was explained that merely reading about how to do something did not gain you the wisdom behind those that had originally done that activity. It is the Space Wolves belief that you learn something by doing it, not reading about it.

 

So, not only are the Space Wolves not hypocrits based on what the Emperor specifically banned at Nikea, they are not hypocrits based upon a philosophical understanding of the warp which mirrors that of the Emperor himself as explained at Nikea.

[Gree]

You have to either take the new fluff as canon or insist on the old fluff as canon. You cannot combine the two as they contradict eachother.

 

To an extent with the Index Astartes. There is nothing in the Collected Visions account that specifically contradicts the fluff from A Thousand Sons.

 

Prior to a Thousand Sons, it was sorcery that was specifically banned by the edict with further fluff pointing to the banning of psykers within the Legions. That is all Collected Visions fluff. With the new fluff that details the Council of Nikea, we have a specific target of the edict per the Emperor's own words and reasons. The new fluff actually supports the long held nickname of the Council of Nikea as being the Trial of Magnus the Red because the Emperor's edict specifically targets Magnus, his Librarian project, and his Legion's continued pursuit of arcane knowledge. There is an instance in the novel that the Emperor is specifically talking to Magnus and he replies saying that he has mastered said knowledge.

 

‘Golovko was a killer of psykers, a gaoler and executioner all in one. His presence within the Whispering Tower was decreed by the new strictures laid down after the great conclave on Nikaea, and Ibn Khaldun suppressed a spike of resentment at its hypocrisy. Bitterness would only cloud his perceptions, and this was a time for clarity like no other.”-Outcast Dead.

 

Odd then that an Edict just concerning Magnus's Librarians would force sanctions on Astropaths. Actually said quote points out anti-psyker laws laid down after Nikaea. So it's not just focused on the Librarians.

 

Fear to Tread also clears up the issue:

 

‘A command from the Emperor of Mankind himself,’ Annellus went on, his words taking on a lecturing tone. ‘A warning about the dark potential of the powers of the warp.’ The Warden turned back to face him. ‘A command Sanguinius echoed, to forbid the use of preternatural powers within the Legiones Astartes. A command the Blood Angels accepted without question.’'- Fear to Tread.

 

And this, the critical peice of evidence:

 

''For the first time, Azkaellon noted the presence of a Rune Priest standing in Redknife’s shadow. The Wolf cleric’s armour was dressed with scrimshawed bones, his open-faced helm apparently carved out of a great canine’s skull. He was careful to stay at his commander’s shoulder, his hand forever on the hilt of a serrated force sword. The Sanguinary Guard unconsciously mirrored the priest’s gesture, his gauntlet falling to the pommel of his glaive encarmine. ‘I see that is so,’ he said. ‘Not only do you break the simple rules of fleet protocol, but you also defy the Emperor’s edict.’ He jutted his chin towards the Rune Priest. ‘You know that psykers are no longer permitted within the Legiones Astartes.’

The cleric answered in a tongue that Azkaellon could not understand, but he knew enough to recognise a Fenrisian dialect when he heard it. Redknife gave a brief nod. ‘My battle-brother Stiel is not a witch-mind, Blood Angel, and he forgives you for your error. It is a common misconception.’

 

‘Can he not tell me that himself, in Imperial Gothic?’

 

‘No,’ said the captain. ‘My skald speaks in our ancient way. It is a tradition, you understand?’

 

‘I don’t.’ Azkaellon’s tone grew colder. ‘And I say again: the Decree of Nikaea has forbidden the use of psychic powers. Your… priest… should be returned to the rank and file, not allowed to treat with the warp.’

 

Stiel made a hissing noise, but Redknife silenced him with a look. ‘His power is pure. It comes from Fenris, as does mine. That is the explanation I will give you, the only explanation.’ He gestured at the air. ‘Now, we may continue on in this vein or we may cut to the meat of this. Which do you choose, Guard Commander?’-Fear to Tread.

[Grimtooth]

You have to either take the new fluff as canon or insist on the old fluff as canon. You cannot combine the two as they contradict eachother.

 

To an extent with the Index Astartes. There is nothing in the Collected Visions account that specifically contradicts the fluff from A Thousand Sons.

 

Prior to a Thousand Sons, it was sorcery that was specifically banned by the edict with further fluff pointing to the banning of psykers within the Legions. That is all Collected Visions fluff. With the new fluff that details the Council of Nikea, we have a specific target of the edict per the Emperor's own words and reasons. The new fluff actually supports the long held nickname of the Council of Nikea as being the Trial of Magnus the Red because the Emperor's edict specifically targets Magnus, his Librarian project, and his Legion's continued pursuit of arcane knowledge. There is an instance in the novel that the Emperor is specifically talking to Magnus and he replies saying that he has mastered said knowledge.

 

‘Golovko was a killer of psykers, a gaoler and executioner all in one. His presence within the Whispering Tower was decreed by the new strictures laid down after the great conclave on Nikaea, and Ibn Khaldun suppressed a spike of resentment at its hypocrisy. Bitterness would only cloud his perceptions, and this was a time for clarity like no other.”-Outcast Dead.

 

Odd then that an Edict just concerning Magnus's Librarians would force sanctions on Astropaths. Actually said quote points out anti-psyker laws laid down after Nikaea. So it's not just focused on the Librarians.

 

Fear to Tread also clears up the issue:

 

‘A command from the Emperor of Mankind himself,’ Annellus went on, his words taking on a lecturing tone. ‘A warning about the dark potential of the powers of the warp.’ The Warden turned back to face him. ‘A command Sanguinius echoed, to forbid the use of preternatural powers within the Legiones Astartes. A command the Blood Angels accepted without question.’'- Fear to Tread.

 

And this, the critical peice of evidence:

 

''For the first time, Azkaellon noted the presence of a Rune Priest standing in Redknife’s shadow. The Wolf cleric’s armour was dressed with scrimshawed bones, his open-faced helm apparently carved out of a great canine’s skull. He was careful to stay at his commander’s shoulder, his hand forever on the hilt of a serrated force sword. The Sanguinary Guard unconsciously mirrored the priest’s gesture, his gauntlet falling to the pommel of his glaive encarmine. ‘I see that is so,’ he said. ‘Not only do you break the simple rules of fleet protocol, but you also defy the Emperor’s edict.’ He jutted his chin towards the Rune Priest. ‘You know that psykers are no longer permitted within the Legiones Astartes.’

The cleric answered in a tongue that Azkaellon could not understand, but he knew enough to recognise a Fenrisian dialect when he heard it. Redknife gave a brief nod. ‘My battle-brother Stiel is not a witch-mind, Blood Angel, and he forgives you for your error. It is a common misconception.’

 

‘Can he not tell me that himself, in Imperial Gothic?’

 

‘No,’ said the captain. ‘My skald speaks in our ancient way. It is a tradition, you understand?’

 

‘I don’t.’ Azkaellon’s tone grew colder. ‘And I say again: the Decree of Nikaea has forbidden the use of psychic powers. Your… priest… should be returned to the rank and file, not allowed to treat with the warp.’

 

Stiel made a hissing noise, but Redknife silenced him with a look. ‘His power is pure. It comes from Fenris, as does mine. That is the explanation I will give you, the only explanation.’ He gestured at the air. ‘Now, we may continue on in this vein or we may cut to the meat of this. Which do you choose, Guard Commander?’-Fear to Tread.

 

All you do is quote individuals perceptionof what was passed down at the Council of Nikea but ignore what the Emperor specifically said in A Thousand Sons? How about quoting Horus on his opinion of the Great Betrayal next time?

 

I laid out what the Emperor decreed, I laid out what the the Emperor said was his reasoning behind that decree, and then point out how the 6th Legion actually mirrors those same reasons, yet all you try to point out are other peoples opinion of what the Emperor meant. that is no different then the vast opinions of everyone posting in this thread or any other thread questioning the Edict of Nikea.

 

The Emperor named specifically, "librarians" and spoke specifically to Magnus. As a reader we were privy to the crux of that conversation which reveals how far Magnus and thus the Librarian project deviated from what the Emperor thought it was going to be. We have the Emperor specifically give his reasoning before passing the Edict after hearing from Wyrmdrake, Magnus, and a gathering of librarians. Do not try and weasel out of what was said by pointing to people who are NOT the Emperor believe was the Emperor's decree.

[Gree]

All you do is quote individuals perceptionof what was passed down at the Council of Nikea but ignore what the Emperor specifically said in A Thousand Sons? How about quoting Horus on his opinion of the Great Betrayal next time?

 

I an not pointing out people's perceptions of what passed down. I'm pointing out what people stated as the law. The high-ranking Blood Angel commander pointed out that the Emperor had decreed that psychic powers were not to be used by the Astartes. The Space Wolf did not contradict him.

 

I laid out what the Emperor decreed, I laid out what the the Emperor said was his reasoning behind that decree, and then point out how the 6th Legion actually mirrors those same reasons, yet all you try to point out are other peoples opinion of what the Emperor meant. that is no different then the vast opinions of everyone posting in this thread or any other thread questioning the Edict of Nikea.

 

Not at all, I for one and pointing out what the character said the Edict detailed. And if it's just people's opinions then why are their strictures emplaced to regulate Astropaths?

 

The Emperor named specifically, "librarians" and spoke specifically to Magnus. As a reader we were privy to the crux of that conversation which reveals how far Magnus and thus the Librarian project deviated from what the Emperor thought it was going to be. We have the Emperor specifically give his reasoning before passing the Edict after hearing from Wyrmdrake, Magnus, and a gathering of librarians. Do not try and weasel out of what was said by pointing to people who are NOT the Emperor believe was the Emperor's decree.

 

No, we are cut off right at the end of the Emperor' proclaimation, but that does not disprove my point in any way. The Emperor could have very well elaborated after that fact. In fact he probably did. Laws are usually not just verbal, they are written down and also clarifed in a legal matters.

 

In addition nothing in the novel contradicts what the Emperor said. The characters in the novel not that the Emperor decreed that there would be no Librarians and there would be no psyhic powers. Even the Space Wolf does not contradict this.

 

Honestly, I'm not so sure what's so ambiguous about said wording.

[Grimtooth]

All you do is quote individuals perceptionof what was passed down at the Council of Nikea but ignore what the Emperor specifically said in A Thousand Sons? How about quoting Horus on his opinion of the Great Betrayal next time?

 

I an not pointing out people's perceptions of what passed down. I'm pointing out what people stated as the law. The high-ranking Blood Angel commander pointed out that the Emperor had decreed that psychic powers were not to be used by the Astartes. The Space Wolf did not contradict him.

 

I laid out what the Emperor decreed, I laid out what the the Emperor said was his reasoning behind that decree, and then point out how the 6th Legion actually mirrors those same reasons, yet all you try to point out are other peoples opinion of what the Emperor meant. that is no different then the vast opinions of everyone posting in this thread or any other thread questioning the Edict of Nikea.

 

Not at all, I for one and pointing out what the character said the Edict detailed. And if it's just people's opinions then why are their strictures emplaced to regulate Astropaths?

 

The Emperor named specifically, "librarians" and spoke specifically to Magnus. As a reader we were privy to the crux of that conversation which reveals how far Magnus and thus the Librarian project deviated from what the Emperor thought it was going to be. We have the Emperor specifically give his reasoning before passing the Edict after hearing from Wyrmdrake, Magnus, and a gathering of librarians. Do not try and weasel out of what was said by pointing to people who are NOT the Emperor believe was the Emperor's decree.

 

No, we are cut off right at the end of the Emperor' proclaimation, but that does not disprove my point in any way. The Emperor could have very well elaborated after that fact. In fact he probably did. Laws are usually not just verbal, they are written down and also clarifed in a legal matters.

 

In addition nothing in the novel contradicts what the Emperor said. The characters in the novel not that the Emperor decreed that there would be no Librarians and there would be no psyhic powers. Even the Space Wolf does not contradict this.

 

Honestly, I'm not so sure what's so ambiguous about said wording.

 

Actually the Space Wolves did contradict the BA by saying his rune priest was not a "witch-mind" which tells you that each Legion did in fact interpret the edict differently, the BA belieiving it was all encompassing of psykers and the SW belieiving it was as the Emperor decreed, Librarians and the Librarian program.

 

How about you actually mention the outcome of that encounter? How about any encounter regarding anyone challenging the SW and their continued use of rune priests? How about citing any source that points to a single instance of any sanction, censure, or reprimand of the SW for keeping rune priests after the Council of Nikea?

 

You have one logical conclusion based on the decree as quoted in A Thousand Sons, based on the shared belief between the Emperor and the SW regarding knowledge for the sake of power, and based on absolutely zero evidence of reprimand in any form of the SW for their continued use of rune priests;

 

The Council of Nikea and subsequent Edict of Nikea did not apply to them.

 

Anything else just keeps popping up as angry player bias over what people think was a bs call by Abnett to make the SW be the Emperor's $xecutionors or angry Thousand Son players that cannot accept that all the fault lies in Magnus making his initial deal with Chaos to save his Legion.

 

So as I said, instead of putting up quotes of what people interpretted the edict to mean, and instead address specifically what the Emperor said.

[Gree]

Actually the Space Wolves did contradict the BA by saying his rune priest was not a "witch-mind" which tells you that each Legion did in fact interpret the edict differently, the BA belieiving it was all encompassing of psykers and the SW belieiving it was as the Emperor decreed, Librarians and the Librarian program.

 

And where does that tell you in that statement at all? He states he is not ''witch-mind'' but that seems to mean Librarian. The Space Wolf even clarifes, saying that his power comes from Fenris, not the warp.

 

Again, I’m not sure what’s so ambiguous here. A high-ranking Blood Angels Captain points out the Rune Priest is violating the Council of Nikaea. The Wolf Lord does not say ‘’Oh, he’s not a Librarian so he does not fall under that.’’ No, the Space Wolf points out that his Rune Priest is not a psyker. The Blood Angels points out the psychic powers are not allowed in the Astartes Legions. The Space Wolf irritable brushes him off. The Blood Angels decides not to press the matter. It becomes a moot point as the Blood Angels are ambushed in battle and all the Space Wolves slain.

 

How about you actually mention the outcome of that encounter? How about any encounter regarding anyone challenging the SW and their continued use of rune priests? How about citing any source that points to a single instance of any sanction, censure, or reprimand of the SW for keeping rune priests after the Council of Nikea?

 

The Alpha Legion and the Dark Angels were also noted to have explictly ignored the Edict. But they got off scot free. But the galaxy is a big place and the Emperor's eyes cannot be everywhere. The Space Wolves avoiding punishment merely points to them being good as hiding it.

 

As for the novel, the outcome had the Space Wolves basically ignoring the Blood Angels, but the Blood Angel not deciding to press the issue. The Space Wolves not being persecuted is kinda the point as to why people are calling them hypocrites.

 

You have one logical conclusion based on the decree as quoted in A Thousand Sons, based on the shared belief between the Emperor and the SW regarding knowledge for the sake of power, and based on absolutely zero evidence of reprimand in any form of the SW for their continued use of rune priests;

 

Actually I have more. I have several quotes from Fear to Tread clarifying that psychic warfare as a whole was forbidden by the Emperor. The Space Wolves evidently got lucky enough to ignore it.

 

The Emperor decreed that Librarians are no longer allowed. That’s fine and dandy. However here this novel expands and clarifies on that. Evidently the Emperor also decreed that psychic powers of all sorts are banned. Nobody states otherwise, not even the Space Wolves.

 

The Council of Nikea and subsequent Edict of Nikea did not apply to them.

 

It most certainly does.

 

YouAnything else just keeps popping up as angry player bias over what people think was a bs call by Abnett to make the SW be the Emperor's $xecutionors or angry Thousand Son players that cannot accept that all the fault lies in Magnus making his initial deal with Chaos to save his Legion.

 

As far as I can tell there has no angry player bias here, most just people curiously commenting. I see you are getting defensive. I can only guess you don’t like the idea of your favorite legion being revealed as hypocrites. I can understand that, but there is no need for you to be snippy or rude here.

 

So as I said, instead of putting up quotes of what people interpretted the edict to mean, and instead address specifically what the Emperor said.

 

Then it is quite fortunate that I have not posted mere interpretations then?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@Brother Ramses: I like your logic, but am unwilling to go any further into this discussion.

 

WLK

[A D-B]

Anything else just keeps popping up as angry player bias over what people think was a bs call by Abnett to make the SW be the Emperor's $xecutionors or angry Thousand Son players that cannot accept that all the fault lies in Magnus making his initial deal with Chaos to save his Legion.

 

In fairness, the overwhelming majority of bias I've seen on this subject (and I've seen a great deal) is almost entirely from the side of Space Wolf fans/players. As well as the interpretations, and the excuses for the apparent inconsistency. But that's anecdotal, and tangential.

 

You can guess that the Space Wolves have special dispensation from the Emperor, but the fact is that's a guess. Every Legion - every single Legion - was told to disband its Librarius Division and to stop using psychic powers. There's no difference between psychic powers and "sorcery"; sorcery is just a different word for supping power form the same source, misunderstood by mortal minds that don't realise it's almost exactly the same thing. Similarly, the Wolves are using psychic powers, they just consider it coming from a different source due to Fenrisian superstition.

 

This is 40K. Everyone is wrong, to some degree. Everyone is right about something, and wrong about the rest. A lot of players (for some reason) associate so strongly with one faction that they refuse to see how their chosen army is wrong or deceived in its perceptions, but it's pretty clear in this case that - until we have evidence to the contrary - the Space Wolves are breaking the Edict of Nikea, and are blinded by Fenrisian superstition into thinking their shamanic juju isn't warp-based magic.

 

It is, though. We know it as fans and readers, and every other Legion knows it - especially those with comprehensive understanding of the warp, such as the Word Bearers and Thousand Sons. Ahriman even tried to explain it, and while any in-universe character will be biased and unreliable, there are fewer characters in the entire setting that understand psychic power as well as him.

[Chaplain ChonkE]

This is 40K. Everyone is wrong, to some degree. Everyone is right about something, and wrong about the rest... the Space Wolves are breaking the Edict of Nikea, and are blinded by Fenrisian superstition into thinking their shamanic juju isn't warp-based magic...

So very very very strongly agree with this! Going back to my earlier comment, the Wolves are not trying to dam the stream but they are still sipping from the waters. All the ignorance and resistance in the world is not going to change the fact they are drinking from the chalice; the Wolves are breaking the rules.

 

Wolves breaking the rules heh. Kind of a familiar pattern in their history right? :cuss