Rune Priests: A Theory

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Anything else just keeps popping up as angry player bias over what people think was a bs call by Abnett to make the SW be the Emperor's $xecutionors or angry Thousand Son players that cannot accept that all the fault lies in Magnus making his initial deal with Chaos to save his Legion.

 

In fairness, the overwhelming majority of bias I've seen on this subject (and I've seen a great deal) is almost entirely from the side of Space Wolf fans/players. As well as the interpretations, and the excuses for the apparent inconsistency. But that's anecdotal, and tangential.

 

You can guess that the Space Wolves have special dispensation from the Emperor, but the fact is that's a guess. Every Legion - every single Legion - was told to disband its Librarius Division and to stop using psychic powers. There's no difference between psychic powers and "sorcery"; sorcery is just a different word for it, misunderstood by mortal minds that don't realise it's the same thing. Similarly, the Wolves are using psychic powers, they just consider it coming from a different source due to Fenrisian superstition.

 

This is 40K. Everyone is wrong, to some degree. Everyone is right about something, and wrong about the rest. A lot of players (for some reason) associate so strongly with one faction that they refuse to see how their chosen army is wrong or deceived in its perceptions, but it's pretty clear in this case that - until we have evidence to the contrary - the Space Wolves are breaking the Edict of Nikea, and are blinded by Fenrisian superstition into thinking their shamanic juju isn't warp-based magic.

 

It is, though. We know it as fans and readers, and every other Legion knows it - especially those with comprehensive understanding of the warp, such as the Word Bearers and Thousand Sons. Ahriman even tried to explain it, and while any in-universe character will be biased and unreliable, there are fewer characters in the entire setting that understand psychic power as well as him.

 

Thank you for posting and clearing things from an insiders stand point :cuss

 

I think many of us, pre-new fluff [we're not supposed to call it a retcon, for some reason] had differentiated Sorcery and Psychic powers, based on the fact that pre-new fluff we did have Librarians after the Nikea edict, and the Nikea edict had said 'NO' to whatever Magnus had been doing.

 

But you tell us that this is not the case?

Obviously Psychic powers are from the Warp, but we'd thought perhaps not 'chaotic/daemonic'. After all, is all the Warp entirely of the 4 gods, or is some of it neutral?

 

If yes, that it is all Evil/of the gods, then why does Chaos allow itself to be a tool for the 'real world'?

 

If it is all Chaos, and the Emperor knew such a thing [which was why he'd told Magnus to stop questing for knowledge, or words to that effect, in A Thousand Sons] then how did the Librarian project ever leave the ground?

 

+++

 

I think the old fluff was clearer for readers and a better story, though that may be based on familiarity. In the end, the king is dead, long live the fluff, but still....

 

Magnus in the old fluff was a tragic hero, in the Greek tradition. Horus's manipulation of Russ gave weight to Horus's people skeeyulz. Russ's prejudices put a matte finish on his good guy status.

With the new fluff, Magnus was an arrogant fool [despite his great love of the Emperor and Humanity and Knowledge] Horus gets taken out of the loop. Russ keeps his gloss finish as a proper good guy.

 

The former seems more mature and also more GrimDark to me.... *shrugs*

 

Thoughts, Mr D-B?

[A D-B]

I edited my post as you were posting, for clarity. But anyway:

 

But you tell us that this is not the case?

 

Nope. Well, not me, anyway. The Grey Knights Codex has said it. The Horus Heresy series has said it, with the Nikea Edict. 40K doesn't retcon in the sense of saying "And now this is different" or "And now this never happened." It just stops mentioning something, and it no longer exists from then on. Have you seen the Mark of Chaos Undivided in a few editions? Nuh-uh. Have you seen any recent mentions to the aftermath of the Eye of Terror Store Campaign? Nope. The setting has centred itself at the very beginning of the 13th Black Crusade, and that's that. 40K retcons by simply not mentioning stuff again.

 

Unfortunately, that can leave a lot of conflicting stuff open to interpretation, and it's hard to see the difference between something 'no longer being right' and something just being left open to interpretation, given all the wild and whacky permutations and possibilities in the 40K universe. Like, say, the Teeth of Khorne. Have those heavy bolter World Eaters been retconned? Or just never mentioned again? And so on.

 

In this case, psychic powers and sorcery are (and aren't) the same thing. They tap the same source, they're largely the same thing through a billion varieties of ritual and practice across countless cultures, and no, they're not as starkly Good/Bad different as previous editions (or rather, one specific previous edition, which has largely been retconned into oblivion) suggested. That's the current lore, started with the GK Codex, and likely to carry on, until it's no longer mentioned. It's the whims of IP Fate. You know how it goes.

 

(I think, as an aside, there's a good case for intent and emotion being the catalysts between Bad Magic (boo, hiss, let's call it sorcery) and heeding those dark whisperings that offer your 'spells' a teeny-tiny bit more power... And resisting all temptation from the warp's offers (like, say, Librarians and Grey Knights with wills of steel), thereby making it Good Magic as "just psychic power...". And it needn't be as obvious as a God saying "I'll give you a re-roll on this spell, dude." I mean that in the seething turbulent turmoil of the warp, maybe every Librarian knows they can tap just a little harder and get more juice for their telekinesis or with-lightning, but they know if they do, it's a slippery slope.)

 

 

The former seems more mature and also more GrimDark to me.... *shrugs*

 

In that context, you're presenting some of "the former" ideas as something you read a great deal about and have believed for years, over something you're half-guessing from an interpretation of someone else's short forum post. Of course the former will sound better for a hundred ways, man. There's no detail, clarity or context for what you're suspecting the latter might actually be - at least in terms of how the warp works. But I'm not going into all that detail; it'd take ages, and it's as likely to be changed from one codex to another, given how the setting works.

 

Nothing is permanent. Everything is fluid. Hence my reluctance to say "This is this" and stand by it. It's X now. It might be Y in a few months. It'll likely be Z in a few years. And in some cases, it might already be A and I'm just wrong. On many occasions, I've said to someone at GW "But Codex X says this..." and they've replied "No, no, we don't mention that anymore." Polite talk for retconning, and quite an elegant system, too.

[Grimtooth]

Anything else just keeps popping up as angry player bias over what people think was a bs call by Abnett to make the SW be the Emperor's $xecutionors or angry Thousand Son players that cannot accept that all the fault lies in Magnus making his initial deal with Chaos to save his Legion.

 

In fairness, the overwhelming majority of bias I've seen on this subject (and I've seen a great deal) is almost entirely from the side of Space Wolf fans/players. As well as the interpretations, and the excuses for the apparent inconsistency. But that's anecdotal, and tangential.

 

You can guess that the Space Wolves have special dispensation from the Emperor, but the fact is that's a guess. Every Legion - every single Legion - was told to disband its Librarius Division and to stop using psychic powers. There's no difference between psychic powers and "sorcery"; sorcery is just a different word for supping power form the same source, misunderstood by mortal minds that don't realise it's almost exactly the same thing. Similarly, the Wolves are using psychic powers, they just consider it coming from a different source due to Fenrisian superstition.

 

This is 40K. Everyone is wrong, to some degree. Everyone is right about something, and wrong about the rest. A lot of players (for some reason) associate so strongly with one faction that they refuse to see how their chosen army is wrong or deceived in its perceptions, but it's pretty clear in this case that - until we have evidence to the contrary - the Space Wolves are breaking the Edict of Nikea, and are blinded by Fenrisian superstition into thinking their shamanic juju isn't warp-based magic.

 

It is, though. We know it as fans and readers, and every other Legion knows it - especially those with comprehensive understanding of the warp, such as the Word Bearers and Thousand Sons. Ahriman even tried to explain it, and while any in-universe character will be biased and unreliable, there are fewer characters in the entire setting that understand psychic power as well as him.

 

Except as the readers we go by what is written and released.

 

Many characters have expressed how loyal the Space Wolves were with even Magnus going as far as saying,

 

"I no longer think of them as animals, Ahmuz, though I once did. I now think of them as the purest of us all. Incorruptible. Single-minded. The perfection of my father's vision."

 

And then later,

 

".....And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly, you were the attack dog of the Emperor."

 

Yet we are to believe that the SW knowingly and willing disobeyed the Edict of Nikea? I mentioned earlier that you have to look at everything in context to come to a logical conclusion, not just jump to a conclusion based on personal bias. In the abscence of everything I presented regarding what was decreed per the Emperor's own words in A Thousand Sons, the reasoning behind that decree per the Emperor's own words in A Thousand Sons, and the very similiar philosophy held by the SW regarding the warp and maleficarum; then I would be the first ones to not even call them hypocrits, but flat out heretics as well.

 

However based on those observations and based on the very lack of any other reprimand in any form against the SW, who per other novels openly and freely kept their rune priests, you cannot jump to the conclusion of hypocrisy and/or heretical. I will go even one farther then my previous assertation that then ties in the theory that Abnett put forth in Prospero Burns,

 

The Council of Nikea and the subsequent Edict of Nikea did not apply to them as they were rune priests, not Librarians and because of their role as the Emperor's executioners.

 

That is far more logical then jumping to the conclusion that the very Legion trusted with the most wretched missions in the universe and supposedly the Emperor's own Mod Squad, suddenly decide to defy said Emperor at the peril of being destroyed as the Thousand Sons were. I mean an entire Legion is destroyed under orders, assumed or given, for defying the Edict of Nikea, and the SW just waves the decree off?

 

It may suck for the fluff and ego of other Legions that somehow, someway, the SW were given special exception to the edict, but that is logically the path that makes the most sense with what has been revealed so far with the HH series.

[Billuriye]

This is getting rather sad.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I edited my post as you were posting, for clarity. But anyway:

 

But you tell us that this is not the case?

 

Nope. Well, not me, anyway. The Grey Knights Codex has said it. The Horus Heresy series has said it, with the Nikea Edict. 40K doesn't retcon in the sense of saying "And now this is different" or "And now this never happened." It just stops mentioning something, and it no longer exists from then on. Have you seen the Mark of Chaos Undivided in a few editions? Nuh-uh. Have you seen any recent mentions to the aftermath of the Eye of Terror Store Campaign? Nope. The setting has centred itself at the very beginning of the 13th Black Crusade, and that's that. 40K retcons by simply not mentioning stuff again.

 

Unfortunately, that can leave a lot of conflicting stuff open to interpretation, and it's hard to see the difference between something 'no longer being right' and something just being left open to interpretation, given all the wild and whacky permutations and possibilities in the 40K universe. Like, say, the Teeth of Khorne. Have those heavy bolter World Eaters been retconned? Or just never mentioned again? And so on.

 

In this case, psychic powers and sorcery are (and aren't) the same thing. They tap the same source, they're largely the same thing through a billion varieties of ritual and practice across countless cultures, and no, they're not as starkly Good/Bad different as previous editions (or rather, one specific previous edition, which has largely been retconned into oblivion) suggested. That's the current lore, started with the GK Codex, and likely to carry on, until it's no longer mentioned. It's the whims of IP Fate. You know how it goes.

 

(I think, as an aside, there's a good case for intent and emotion being the catalysts between Bad Magic (boo, hiss, let's call it sorcery) and heeding those dark whisperings that offer your 'spells' a teeny-tiny bit more power... And resisting all temptation from the warp's offers (like, say, Librarians and Grey Knights with wills of steel), thereby making it Good Magic as "just psychic power...". And it needn't be as obvious as a God saying "I'll give you a re-roll on this spell, dude." I mean that in the seething turbulent turmoil of the warp, maybe every Librarian knows they can tap just a little harder and get more juice for their telekinesis or with-lightning, but they know if they do, it's a slippery slope.)

 

 

The former seems more mature and also more GrimDark to me.... *shrugs*

 

In that context, you're presenting some of "the former" ideas as something you read a great deal about and have believed for years, over something you're half-guessing from an interpretation of someone else's short forum post. Of course the former will sound better for a hundred ways, man. There's no detail, clarity or context for what you're suspecting the latter might actually be - at least in terms of how the warp works. But I'm not going into all that detail; it'd take ages, and it's as likely to be changed from one codex to another, given how the setting works.

 

Nothing is permanent. Everything is fluid. Hence my reluctance to say "This is this" and stand by it. It's X now. It might be Y in a few months. It'll likely be Z in a few years. And in some cases, it might already be A and I'm just wrong. On many occasions, I've said to someone at GW "But Codex X says this..." and they've replied "No, no, we don't mention that anymore." Polite talk for retconning, and quite an elegant system, too.

 

You are a good bloke for helping us out ;)

I do understand that you are in a hard place with saying [or not] that 'X is so' and then GW goes "Y suits us better now" and that you are almost like in a middle management situation, where the workers [fans] say you're one of the [the bosses] and the bosses [GW/BL] are changing their fluff/oblivious to what some of the fandom wants. A rock and a hard place, in a sense.

 

+++

 

Now that I have quoted you, I might just terrorise you with your pre-edited post. Because once you've said it you can never unsay it :cuss

Very much joking.

 

I don't quite know the fullness of the Newkia edict, as I am not in the circle you rub shoulders with, but I did read ATS and saw one of my favourite pre-Heresy Primarchs [Magnus] lose his shine and become/it was made more apparent ;);) his choices had already damned him from when he landed on Prospero. And I have read Prospero Burns. So I hope I haven't come across as too hearsay'ish.

 

I think you have said it before that GW simply isn't down for an encyclopeida style approach to fluff, that many of us would like to have and be able to hang our hats on. We are trying to make the fluff something that isn't even a priority for GW. Like trying to bring mathematics to a painter's approach. Most are not interested in being clinical and orderly, as an example. I hope that makes sense.

 

 

This is getting rather sad.

 

I don't know how to pronounce your handle. Can you illuminate me please? :(

[Billuriye]

I don't know how to pronounce your handle. Can you illuminate me please? :cuss

 

An 40k author comes out and sheds light on the issue while leaving no room for misinterpretation and speculation yet the information still can't be processed by some.

[Marshal Rohr]

Anything else just keeps popping up as angry player bias over what people think was a bs call by Abnett to make the SW be the Emperor's $xecutionors or angry Thousand Son players that cannot accept that all the fault lies in Magnus making his initial deal with Chaos to save his Legion.

 

In fairness, the overwhelming majority of bias I've seen on this subject (and I've seen a great deal) is almost entirely from the side of Space Wolf fans/players. As well as the interpretations, and the excuses for the apparent inconsistency. But that's anecdotal, and tangential.

 

You can guess that the Space Wolves have special dispensation from the Emperor, but the fact is that's a guess. Every Legion - every single Legion - was told to disband its Librarius Division and to stop using psychic powers. There's no difference between psychic powers and "sorcery"; sorcery is just a different word for supping power form the same source, misunderstood by mortal minds that don't realise it's almost exactly the same thing. Similarly, the Wolves are using psychic powers, they just consider it coming from a different source due to Fenrisian superstition.

 

This is 40K. Everyone is wrong, to some degree. Everyone is right about something, and wrong about the rest. A lot of players (for some reason) associate so strongly with one faction that they refuse to see how their chosen army is wrong or deceived in its perceptions, but it's pretty clear in this case that - until we have evidence to the contrary - the Space Wolves are breaking the Edict of Nikea, and are blinded by Fenrisian superstition into thinking their shamanic juju isn't warp-based magic.

 

It is, though. We know it as fans and readers, and every other Legion knows it - especially those with comprehensive understanding of the warp, such as the Word Bearers and Thousand Sons. Ahriman even tried to explain it, and while any in-universe character will be biased and unreliable, there are fewer characters in the entire setting that understand psychic power as well as him.

 

Except as the readers we go by what is written and released.

 

Many characters have expressed how loyal the Space Wolves were with even Magnus going as far as saying,

 

"I no longer think of them as animals, Ahmuz, though I once did. I now think of them as the purest of us all. Incorruptible. Single-minded. The perfection of my father's vision."

 

And then later,

 

".....And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly, you were the attack dog of the Emperor."

 

Yet we are to believe that the SW knowingly and willing disobeyed the Edict of Nikea? I mentioned earlier that you have to look at everything in context to come to a logical conclusion, not just jump to a conclusion based on personal bias. In the abscence of everything I presented regarding what was decreed per the Emperor's own words in A Thousand Sons, the reasoning behind that decree per the Emperor's own words in A Thousand Sons, and the very similiar philosophy held by the SW regarding the warp and maleficarum; then I would be the first ones to not even call them hypocrits, but flat out heretics as well.

 

However based on those observations and based on the very lack of any other reprimand in any form against the SW, who per other novels openly and freely kept their rune priests, you cannot jump to the conclusion of hypocrisy and/or heretical. I will go even one farther then my previous assertation that then ties in the theory that Abnett put forth in Prospero Burns,

 

The Council of Nikea and the subsequent Edict of Nikea did not apply to them as they were rune priests, not Librarians and because of their role as the Emperor's executioners.

 

That is far more logical then jumping to the conclusion that the very Legion trusted with the most wretched missions in the universe and supposedly the Emperor's own Mod Squad, suddenly decide to defy said Emperor at the peril of being destroyed as the Thousand Sons were. I mean an entire Legion is destroyed under orders, assumed or given, for defying the Edict of Nikea, and the SW just waves the decree off?

 

It may suck for the fluff and ego of other Legions that somehow, someway, the SW were given special exception to the edict, but that is logically the path that makes the most sense with what has been revealed so far with the HH series.

 

Page numbers and specific references, right now. No? Then don't state that its the logical conclusion. Unless you can show exactly in a novel where it says the Space Wolves got an exception to the Edict. you are making :cuss up. If you want to pursue it further, ask Graham McNeill and Dan Abnett why they had the wolves continuing the use of psychic powers after the Edict, but dont try to lecture on what 'is and isn't' without cold, hard, specific quotations directly from the books.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I don't know how to pronounce your handle. Can you illuminate me please? :)

 

An 40k author comes out and sheds light on the issue while leaving no room for misinterpretation and speculation yet the information still can't be processed by some.

 

Are you trying to present that I am somehow stupid [because I "can't process information"] as I don't know how to pronounce your handle? :huh:

 

What A D-B has presented has nothing to do with your handle. What's the connection?

 

Given that my response to A D-B has no lack of 'information processing' you cannot be talking about that.

 

English has oodles of contradictions/repetitions, etc. Do you ewe no know what watt I eye mean? Your loaded response wasn't needed, nor was it an accurate assessment of my abilities. I'm sorry I touched a sensitive issue.

 

It was a simple question asking for information, that is all.

 

Don't worry about it. *shrugs*

 

:)

[Grimtooth]

Anything else just keeps popping up as angry player bias over what people think was a bs call by Abnett to make the SW be the Emperor's $xecutionors or angry Thousand Son players that cannot accept that all the fault lies in Magnus making his initial deal with Chaos to save his Legion.

 

In fairness, the overwhelming majority of bias I've seen on this subject (and I've seen a great deal) is almost entirely from the side of Space Wolf fans/players. As well as the interpretations, and the excuses for the apparent inconsistency. But that's anecdotal, and tangential.

 

You can guess that the Space Wolves have special dispensation from the Emperor, but the fact is that's a guess. Every Legion - every single Legion - was told to disband its Librarius Division and to stop using psychic powers. There's no difference between psychic powers and "sorcery"; sorcery is just a different word for supping power form the same source, misunderstood by mortal minds that don't realise it's almost exactly the same thing. Similarly, the Wolves are using psychic powers, they just consider it coming from a different source due to Fenrisian superstition.

 

This is 40K. Everyone is wrong, to some degree. Everyone is right about something, and wrong about the rest. A lot of players (for some reason) associate so strongly with one faction that they refuse to see how their chosen army is wrong or deceived in its perceptions, but it's pretty clear in this case that - until we have evidence to the contrary - the Space Wolves are breaking the Edict of Nikea, and are blinded by Fenrisian superstition into thinking their shamanic juju isn't warp-based magic.

 

It is, though. We know it as fans and readers, and every other Legion knows it - especially those with comprehensive understanding of the warp, such as the Word Bearers and Thousand Sons. Ahriman even tried to explain it, and while any in-universe character will be biased and unreliable, there are fewer characters in the entire setting that understand psychic power as well as him.

 

Except as the readers we go by what is written and released.

 

Many characters have expressed how loyal the Space Wolves were with even Magnus going as far as saying,

 

"I no longer think of them as animals, Ahmuz, though I once did. I now think of them as the purest of us all. Incorruptible. Single-minded. The perfection of my father's vision."

 

And then later,

 

".....And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly, you were the attack dog of the Emperor."

 

Yet we are to believe that the SW knowingly and willing disobeyed the Edict of Nikea? I mentioned earlier that you have to look at everything in context to come to a logical conclusion, not just jump to a conclusion based on personal bias. In the abscence of everything I presented regarding what was decreed per the Emperor's own words in A Thousand Sons, the reasoning behind that decree per the Emperor's own words in A Thousand Sons, and the very similiar philosophy held by the SW regarding the warp and maleficarum; then I would be the first ones to not even call them hypocrits, but flat out heretics as well.

 

However based on those observations and based on the very lack of any other reprimand in any form against the SW, who per other novels openly and freely kept their rune priests, you cannot jump to the conclusion of hypocrisy and/or heretical. I will go even one farther then my previous assertation that then ties in the theory that Abnett put forth in Prospero Burns,

 

The Council of Nikea and the subsequent Edict of Nikea did not apply to them as they were rune priests, not Librarians and because of their role as the Emperor's executioners.

 

That is far more logical then jumping to the conclusion that the very Legion trusted with the most wretched missions in the universe and supposedly the Emperor's own Mod Squad, suddenly decide to defy said Emperor at the peril of being destroyed as the Thousand Sons were. I mean an entire Legion is destroyed under orders, assumed or given, for defying the Edict of Nikea, and the SW just waves the decree off?

 

It may suck for the fluff and ego of other Legions that somehow, someway, the SW were given special exception to the edict, but that is logically the path that makes the most sense with what has been revealed so far with the HH series.

 

Page numbers and specific references, right now. No? Then don't state that its the logical conclusion. Unless you can show exactly in a novel where it says the Space Wolves got an exception to the Edict. you are making :huh: up. If you want to pursue it further, ask Graham McNeill and Dan Abnett why they had the wolves continuing the use of psychic powers after the Edict, but dont try to lecture on what 'is and isn't' without cold, hard, specific quotations directly from the books.

 

It is the logical conclusion to what observations we have as readers. It is not logical to assume outright that the SW would defy the Edict of Nikea given their percieved role as the EEmperor's executioners. However it is logical that the one Legion you deem as your executioners are allowed to keep a weapon that other Legions are not.

 

You can hemhaw over the issue if whether or not the Edict applied to them or not, but you cannot deny the fact that the SW did not face any reprimand for retaining rune priests within their ranks after the edict was passed, especially in the very extreme vicinity of the Sisters of Silence and the Custodes.

 

Some of you try and wave it off that it was the HH and you couldn't have another Legion being sanctioned or whatever. But it must pain you greatly when the more logical conclusion is that the rune priests of the SW were psykers sanctioned by the Emperor in the 6th Legion's role as his executioners.

 

Sorry, but it is lazy to just pass it off as hypocrisy or traitorous when so much points to something much more complex at play.

[Chaplain ChonkE]

More complex at play? Like what? The Space Wolves are not the Horus-Heresy Ultramarines :\ They already have those guys and they are called Ultramarines :\ The Wolves were probably not given any special dispensation. I doubt ANY Legion was given dispensation or any Imperial Organization barring those organizations like the Black Ships, Astropaths and Navigators of the Galaxy who were necessary for the day-to-day operation of the Imperium. Sure, Longfang does say 'we are the Emperor's ultimate badasses' but pretty much so does every hard-as-nails officer/specialist in a Astartes Legion. World Eaters, Sons of Horus, Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, Iron Warriors etc etc; they all have examples of them saying how they are the bestest ever.

 

Honestly, you think the most habitual line-steppingest Legion/Chapter of them all, the Space Wolves, the drunken Marines, the guys who smash priceless orbitals into planetoids to fight faster wouldnt break a rule like that? It was a bad rule anyways! Of course the Wolves would be like 'Well, we didnt know what you meant. We are special anyways :huh: ". If you want a good example of how the Space Wolves 'toe'/'paw' the Imperial line and are prone to doing their own thing (which Space Marines often do), read the above poster ADB's book The Emperor's Gift. It is a quagmire of personal politics and beliefs which brings major Imperial organizations into internal conflict and conflict with other major Imperial organizations. Many readers on this board have painted the actions of the Space Wolves to be traitorous against the Imperium of Mankind but they are really fighting individuals and the factions and beliefs they represent in those organizations. It doesnt hurt thought from our point of view the Wolves are being the Good Guys®. Fascinating stuff, shows Wolves breaking rules (they do that alot), shows quagmire of how beliefs bring Imperial organizations into conflict pretty much awesome. Logan Grimnar pulls a "Hot Rod" 'Rowdy' Roddy Piper coming to kick butt and chew gum but remembering he has fangs in the book. All he needs are some stunna shades.

 

Anyways, Wolves do their Wolfie thing. They kind of freelance around doing their own thing and who is really going to tell them different? Even when sent to sanction the Thousand Sons they are not the sanction of the Emperor. That is Valdor and the Sisters. The Wolves are just the tool sent for the job as I have outlined the reasons earlier why they are the most appropriate ones to fight warp-powers. Fighting another Legion doesnt make the Wolves special in any way. I think the Heresy was filled with that. If they were the prime executioners, why was Ferrus Manus sent to Istvaan? Even Guilliman was like "Damn, I am gonna miss that guy" even though Russ was on his list of Bro-fisting/Dap-giving Macragge Marching Chosen. Having one old Marine say his legion is the executioners of all things to a remembrancer/skald who is supposed to a fable/tale-teller who cements the legacy of the Legion through his stories does not Ultimate Executioners make! And it certainly doesnt give the Legion the right to ignore the Edicts of the Emperor that Thou Shalt Not Use Warp Magicks. Damn, I sobered up sometime in this paragraph so I cut this short and reiterate the oft wise Idaho! Wolves broke the rules but that is okay, they didnt pee on the rug. Magnus broke the rules but was a bad super-son cause he soiled the floor and broke Da's favorite Lazy Boy.

[Legatus]

But you tell us that this is not the case?

Nope. Well, not me, anyway. The Grey Knights Codex has said it. The Horus Heresy series has said it, with the Nikea Edict. 40K doesn't retcon in the sense of saying "And now this is different" or "And now this never happened." It just stops mentioning something, and it no longer exists from then on. Have you seen the Mark of Chaos Undivided in a few editions? Nuh-uh. Have you seen any recent mentions to the aftermath of the Eye of Terror Store Campaign? Nope. The setting has centred itself at the very beginning of the 13th Black Crusade, and that's that. 40K retcons by simply not mentioning stuff again.

Umh, well... That may be the case for an actual distinction between sorcery and psychic powers (although the Emperor previously seemed to think there was one), but it certainly isn't for the Edict of Nikaea. The Horus Heresy series Edict of Nikaea is a prime example for "and now this is different".

[Captain Idaho]

Let's not muddy this discussion with talk of whether there are "retcons" at play or not! Please!

 

Anyway, I think it's bridge too far to interpret the Space Wolves' use of pyskers must have been allowed, just because they hadn't censored. The was an intergalactic war going on and the Emperor was pre-occupied battling the realm of Chaos, and anything could have happened had the Heresy not occurred.

 

There is no evidence the Space Wolves had permission to break the rules and the quotes posted by Gree illustrate this, as the characters within are surprised at the Space Wolves' use of Psykers, whilst the Space Wolves themselves explain it not as part of their permission but instead say it's not psychics but Fenris power.

 

40k fans are incredibly partisan at times, but there isn't a reason to think this is a personal attack. It's these little nuances that make for a great and tragic tale. See it objectively and you'll enjoy it.

[Gree]

Except as the readers we go by what is written and released.

 

Many characters have expressed how loyal the Space Wolves were with even Magnus going as far as saying,

 

"I no longer think of them as animals, Ahmuz, though I once did. I now think of them as the purest of us all. Incorruptible. Single-minded. The perfection of my father's vision."

 

And then later,

 

".....And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly, you were the attack dog of the Emperor."

 

...Were you not the one who reprimanded me for going by a character's ''interpretation'' and disregarding anything not said by the Emperor himself?

 

Yet we are to believe that the SW knowingly and willing disobeyed the Edict of Nikea? I mentioned earlier that you have to look at everything in context to come to a logical conclusion, not just jump to a conclusion based on personal bias.

 

So A D-B is biased against the Space Wolves evidently. :D

 

That is far more logical then jumping to the conclusion that the very Legion trusted with the most wretched missions in the universe and supposedly the Emperor's own Mod Squad, suddenly decide to defy said Emperor at the peril of being destroyed as the Thousand Sons were. I mean an entire Legion is destroyed under orders, assumed or given, for defying the Edict of Nikea, and the SW just waves the decree off?

 

Why not? The Space Wolves don’t think that Rune Priests are psykers. They don’t think the Edict even covers them, even if the Emperor did command they stop using psychic powers.

 

If they have permission then why don't the Space Wolves explain it to the Blood Angels? Why does nobody else, not even the Wolves, comment on their alleged special privileges?

 

You can hemhaw over the issue if whether or not the Edict applied to them or not, but you cannot deny the fact that the SW did not face any reprimand for retaining rune priests within their ranks after the edict was passed, especially in the very extreme vicinity of the Sisters of Silence and the Custodes.

 

That again, means very little. All the Rune Priests would have to do is simply not use their powers in eyesight of said factions. You had Raven Guard Librarians and Alpha Legion infiltrators walk right next to Custodes in Deliverance Lost and the only warning they got was when they tried to use their powers right in front of them.

 

The Word Bearers managed to fool the Custodes for close on to 50 years, with one of them even killing a Custodes and still able to cover it up.

 

Some of you try and wave it off that it was the HH and you couldn't have another Legion being sanctioned or whatever. But it must pain you greatly when the more logical conclusion is that the rune priests of the SW were psykers sanctioned by the Emperor in the 6th Legion's role as his executioners.

 

Except it's really not, as I pointed out. If they are sanctioned then why did Redknife not say ''Hey Blood Angel, we have the Emperor's permission. It's totally okay for us to have psykers.''. I mean, if the Space Wolves really did have the Emperor's permission then you would expect everyone to know about it to avoid incidents such as that. But that's not quite what happened now is it? The Space Wolf rather irately brushed the Blood Angel off and told him that he was not ''witch-mind'' and that his powers came from Fenris.

[Haranin]

In response to the DA ignores the edict comment; its unclear. The main fleet with the Lion has heard of it, and enforces it. Its not clear if the Lutherite forces on Caliban ever heard of it or ignored.

[Gree]

In response to the DA ignores the edict comment; its unclear. The main fleet with the Lion has heard of it, and enforces it. Its not clear if the Lutherite forces on Caliban ever heard of it or ignored.

 

Ah, yes I stand corrected on that. But we do know the Alpha Legion ignored it.

 

If you want an example of a Legion ignoring the Emperor's Laws or fooling him then look at the Word Bearers. They completely fooled the Custodes sent to watch over them for 50 years.

[Baluc]

In response to the DA ignores the edict comment; its unclear. The main fleet with the Lion has heard of it, and enforces it. Its not clear if the Lutherite forces on Caliban ever heard of it or ignored.

 

Ah, yes I stand corrected on that. But we do know the Alpha Legion ignored it.

 

If you want an example of a Legion ignoring the Emperor's Laws or fooling him then look at the Word Bearers. They completely fooled the Custodes sent to watch over them for 50 years.

 

Why is this still going on? I thought we reach the point where it was decided the Trail of Magnus ended with hey you psykers stop doing stuff with your mind! Rune Priest aren't just psykers, they are their to give hard earned advice, and mentorship, that doesn't require psyker powers just experience and intellegence, so could in theory be done by any Space Wolf. The fact that the orignal Rune Priest kept their jobs isn't enough to say they broke the edict. So with a distinct lack of power usage I'm going with they followed the rules, until the rule was untenable.

[Gree]

In response to the DA ignores the edict comment; its unclear. The main fleet with the Lion has heard of it, and enforces it. Its not clear if the Lutherite forces on Caliban ever heard of it or ignored.

 

Ah, yes I stand corrected on that. But we do know the Alpha Legion ignored it.

 

If you want an example of a Legion ignoring the Emperor's Laws or fooling him then look at the Word Bearers. They completely fooled the Custodes sent to watch over them for 50 years.

 

Why is this still going on? I thought we reach the point where it was decided the Trail of Magnus ended with hey you psykers stop doing stuff with your mind! Rune Priest aren't just psykers, they are their to give hard earned advice, and mentorship, that doesn't require psyker powers just experience and intellegence, so could in theory be done by any Space Wolf. The fact that the orignal Rune Priest kept their jobs isn't enough to say they broke the edict. So with a distinct lack of power usage I'm going with they followed the rules, until the rule was untenable.

 

They use their powers in Fear to Tread and Prospero Burns. One of the Blood Angels even calls them out on it. At no point does the Space Wolves offer your explanation at all. They don't explain that the Rune Priests are not using their powers. They just coldly brush off the Blood Angel pointing out the Nikaea decree.

[Marshal Rohr]

I'm waiting on those references. Not personal conclusions.

[A D-B]

Sorry, but it is lazy to just pass it off as hypocrisy or traitorous when so much points to something much more complex at play.

 

Here's the problem. You're spewing out bias and subjective conjecture as somehow being more obvious or more likely. That's the downfall of this debate. It's just as easy to argue that "It's lazy and fanboyish to pass off blatant hypocrisy as The Wolves Are Special." See? That's how invalid and subjective your point is. It's that easy to flip into a complete reversal, with just as much bias and implied insult to those who disagree. And that's a bad thing. It shows your hostility in all this, which in turn suggests a bias - both of which together are kinda preventing balanced debate.

 

Let's run with this, though. Maybe there is something more complex at play. Who's to say it's in favour of the Wolves? Maybe the more complex answer is that the Wolves don't just have special dispensation from the Emperor, and that their ritualistic, shamanic roots genuinely convince them that they're manipulating psychic power in new and harmless ways. Maybe they believe they've mastered a certain degree of binding and self-control. Maybe, imagine this, they're just so useless at psychic powers - so rudimentary, that the Emperor thinks their powers are irrelevant and not worth sanctioning? Maybe they're really doing X instead of Y. All of this might be the "more complex" answer, which actually - again - highlights the snarky disrespect in your language. What you suggest is no more complex than the opinion you refuse to consider. You're just saying "Hypocrisy is obvious and lazy, special dispensation is more complex" when actually, no, it's not. It's pretty much the same level of complexity.

 

But still, there's some mileage in all this. So let's take it deeper.

 

 

It is the logical conclusion to what observations we have as readers.

 

Except it's not. Many readers (most, in fact) seem to be suggesting quite the opposite. So this is a fallacy to undermine debate.

 

You can hemhaw over the issue if whether or not the Edict applied to them or not, but you cannot deny the fact that the SW did not face any reprimand for retaining rune priests within their ranks after the edict was passed, especially in the very extreme vicinity of the Sisters of Silence and the Custodes.

 

Oh, really? Are you sure? We saw literally nothing of the aftermath of Prospero from the Wolves' side, and almost nothing of the battle itself. That's a pretty big leap of faith, man.

 

What if the answer is "No, you're right. We haven't seen that reprimanding. Yet."

 

 

It is not logical to assume outright that the SW would defy the Edict of Nikea given their percieved role as the EEmperor's executioners.

 

Except it is, because that is indeed what seems to be happening. It does indeed look like the Wolves are hypocrites, or simply ignorant about how psychic powers really work. (Indeed, we as readers know full well they are wrong about how psychic powers work.) That's not some grievous assault against people who happen to like the Space Wolves. It's not an inuslt to them that their beloved army is wrong. It's 40K. Everyone is wrong. Everyone is ignorant to some degree. It's called nuance. It's called theme.

 

But, again, let's run with this.

 

You think it's more logical and likely that the Wolves have special allowance to break the Edict. The counter argument is that no Legion has special dispensation, and remember, there's no evidence at all that the Wolves are the Emperor's executioners, it's just what they believe. In that light, it's just as easy to say to see the logic and likelihood that they break the Edict of Nikea because they believe they're something special. They're not. Prospero Burns also has characters saying no Marine is capable of outfighting a Wolf one on one. But that's not true. The Space Wolves are no better than any other Marines. Prospero Burns also has characters saying the Space Wolves are the most feared and savage Legion. They're not. They're no more feared than the Night Lords, and no more savage than the World Eaters - and there's a very, very strong case in past lore than they're less feared and savage than both of those Legions. So, to a lot of readers, what you actually have is a Space Wolf Legion that suffers delusions of grandeur - a Space Wolf Legion that (gasp!) is just as flawed and accountable as every other Legion.

 

So which is more likely, really? The Wolves are the bestest and the specialest and can do no wrong? Or the Wolves screwed up from ignorance and arrogance just like every other Legion already has, or somehow will do in the future?

[A D-B]

I don't know how to pronounce your handle. Can you illuminate me please? :P

 

An 40k author comes out and sheds light on the issue while leaving no room for misinterpretation and speculation yet the information still can't be processed by some.

 

Are you trying to present that I am somehow stupid [because I "can't process information"] as I don't know how to pronounce your handle? :)

 

I, uh, don't think he's talking about you, Marsh'.

[Captain Idaho]

So which is more likely, really? The Wolves are the bestest and the specialest and can do no wrong? Or the Wolves screwed up from ignorance and arrogance just like every other Legion already has, or somehow will do in the future?

 

Piggy backing the A D-B information train...

 

The suggestion the Space Wolves are the best, strongest, undefeatable, most favoured etc, is an often stated criticism leveled at the Ultramarines in "modern" 40K. Some people refer to it as "Mary Sue" almost. I think we can all agree we don't want the Space Wolves to turn into that.

[Baluc]

In response to the DA ignores the edict comment; its unclear. The main fleet with the Lion has heard of it, and enforces it. Its not clear if the Lutherite forces on Caliban ever heard of it or ignored.

 

Ah, yes I stand corrected on that. But we do know the Alpha Legion ignored it.

 

If you want an example of a Legion ignoring the Emperor's Laws or fooling him then look at the Word Bearers. They completely fooled the Custodes sent to watch over them for 50 years.

 

Why is this still going on? I thought we reach the point where it was decided the Trail of Magnus ended with hey you psykers stop doing stuff with your mind! Rune Priest aren't just psykers, they are their to give hard earned advice, and mentorship, that doesn't require psyker powers just experience and intellegence, so could in theory be done by any Space Wolf. The fact that the orignal Rune Priest kept their jobs isn't enough to say they broke the edict. So with a distinct lack of power usage I'm going with they followed the rules, until the rule was untenable.

 

They use their powers in Fear to Tread and Prospero Burns. One of the Blood Angels even calls them out on it. At no point does the Space Wolves offer your explanation at all. They don't explain that the Rune Priests are not using their powers. They just coldly brush off the Blood Angel pointing out the Nikaea decree.

 

Who said every astartes is friendly to every legion? His cold brush off might just be. "Hey look dude, we're here to the All-father's business are we going to argue over a man with detailed armour? Is he shooting lightning? Reading your mind? So let it go."

 

I haven't reach that specific point in Fear to Tread yet, so if you could enlighten me does the Rune Priest use any powers? Because just being a Psyker isn't breaking the edict. Like I said being a Rune Priest is more than just being a psyker, and much of his role isn't even about being a Pysker.

 

On the Rout being the biggest, baddest, etc. I don't think that is the case presented at all. What I took from Prosepero Burns is that they will never say no to the All-father. They will do anything he asks. They may agree of disagree, but once they deploy the reason doesn't matter, they will do anything to accomplish the task regardless of the cost physically or spiritually, and once its done its done.

 

The 40K Space wolves, have gone from the attack dog of the All-father to the gaurd dog, protecting the ruins of what he built and will lay down their lives for it, no matter that its a burnt out shell falling into ruin. Thats the grim dark I love about the Rout, the duality of their nature, the hope and sadness of their light and savagry of their darkness. The other Legions all went from light in the crusades, in motivation, not always action, to darkness during the heresy. The Space wolves went the other way, darkest in the 30K universe, and Lightest in the 40K universe.

[Marshal Rohr]

He's still a psyker.

[Gree]

Who said every astartes is friendly to every legion? His cold brush off might just be. "Hey look dude, we're here to the All-father's business are we going to argue over a man with detailed armour? Is he shooting lightning? Reading your mind? So let it go."

 

The Space Wovles were present on offical bussiness and meeting with the commander of Sanguinius's own bodyguards concerning their presncese. Any of his concerns should be taken as seriously as possible. Said Blood Angel points out that the decree forbids psykers. At no point does the Space Wolf commander point out that he is not using his powers, despite that would be an easy explanation.

 

I haven't reach that specific point in Fear to Tread yet, so if you could enlighten me does the Rune Priest use any powers? Because just being a Psyker isn't breaking the edict. Like I said being a Rune Priest is more than just being a psyker, and much of his role isn't even about being a Pysker.

 

Being a psyker in the Astartes Legion and using your powers is indeed breaking the Edict. That is stated many times in the book.

[Baluc]

Who said every astartes is friendly to every legion? His cold brush off might just be. "Hey look dude, we're here to the All-father's business are we going to argue over a man with detailed armour? Is he shooting lightning? Reading your mind? So let it go."

 

The Space Wovles were present on offical bussiness and meeting with the commander of Sanguinius's own bodyguards concerning their presncese. Any of his concerns should be taken as seriously as possible. Said Blood Angel points out that the decree forbids psykers. At no point does the Space Wolf commander point out that he is not using his powers, despite that would be an easy explanation.

 

I haven't reach that specific point in Fear to Tread yet, so if you could enlighten me does the Rune Priest use any powers? Because just being a Psyker isn't breaking the edict. Like I said being a Rune Priest is more than just being a psyker, and much of his role isn't even about being a Pysker.

 

Being a psyker in the Astartes Legion and using your powers is indeed breaking the Edict. That is stated many times in the book.

 

You obviously haven't read much about the Rout if you think a fancy title is going to impress them into being polite. A Wolf Lord gets into a stand off with Magnus, he relents of course, but if you think scuh and such of such and such chapter is going to get respect for wearing gold armour you need to read the novels involving Space wolves or the Rout.

 

Bolded text. Does he use any powers, I asked a direct question. Being a psyker isn't the issue only psykers can use powers obviously. But if being a psyker is a crime did all the legions kill their librarians? No obviously not.