How to deal with Flyers (in numbers)?

[Brynjolf Irontooth]

1) So how do/can you handle fighting an opponent with flyers?

 

2) And what if that opponent has a lot of flyers? Like for example 3-6 cheap, but very effective vendetta's?

 

3) And not knowing what opponent/army you'll be facing (for example a tournament), how will you deal with flyers then? Sso dealing with flyers in an all-round list, or otherwise said what would an all-round armylist require to handle flyers?

 

Thanks in advance

BI

[CrimsonMajick]

An Aegis Defense line with quad cannon is a very effective all-around addition, whether or not you expect to run into flyers.

 

If you think you will run into the 3-6 vendetta situation I would make sure to punish the troops that start on the board before the flyers show up. Drop pods, bikes, jump troops, anything to get you close and personal. If your opponent is using something that improves his chances of reserve rolls, target that and make it disappear.

 

Remember the move restrictions on fliers. They are harder to hit while they zoom, so be sure to use twin-linked or prescience-buffed troops to try to bring them down. Move your units to where the fliers will have to go to hover mode in order to target you. If they don't, then they can't fire at you. If they do, then they are easy targets next turn.

 

Don't let the concern of fliers throw you off your games. If you have a good list they shouldn't control the tempo of the game.

[Chaplain Admetus]

The more fliers they have, the less ground troops they have, especially at the start of the game. Make those first turns count; if you can wipe their ground forces before the fliers turn up, you've got a slim chance of winning outright if they have cack reserve rolls. Also remember that they have a blind spot - we're fast enough to exploit it. They can't do diddly about anything that gets directly behind them and is quick enough to stay there unless they drop into hover mode (and not all fliers can do that), and if they do then that's your chance to smack them whilst they're relatively weak. If they're using a lot of transport fliers, then you can get the edge as nothing can score from inside them... they'll have to come out sometime, and when they do you can pounce.

[DominicJ]

Either Raven up, infantry up or alpha up

 

 

The theoretical 9 venedetta list looks scary, but against infantry, its a pretty weak list.

Flying lascannons are an expensive way to kill tactical marines, and we can shoot then down with bolters in the back

 

As far as I'm aware, we are the only one with flyers that can rain hell fire down on anything :huh:

[Ushtarador]

I also found this calculation quite interesting: A vendetta kills only 0.93 marines in 4+ cover - if you have enough troops, and spread them out against templates, they will take ages to whittle down even a normal assault troop. Considering that they should be able to shoot only every second turn due to movement restrictions, and instantly die if they ever enter hover mode, it shouldn't be that hard with a good list.

Talking from experience, wiping out most of his scoring troops also works well against flyer spam.

[Morticon]

I also found this calculation quite interesting: A vendetta kills only 0.93 marines in 4+ cover - if you have enough troops, and spread them out against templates, they will take ages to whittle down even a normal assault troop. Considering that they should be able to shoot only every second turn due to movement restrictions, and instantly die if they ever enter hover mode, it shouldn't be that hard with a good list.

Talking from experience, wiping out most of his scoring troops also works well against flyer spam.

 

A few problems with this though are that:

4+ cover is hard to come by. If you have an aegis line, youre not engaging them up close.

 

6 vendettas are easy to cram into 1750 - and each one has 2 Heavy bolters too.

 

Its not too difficult to get 2 solid turns of choice shooting, and potentially a 3rd with decent movement.

 

The only tactics I can think of at the moment against very heavy Detta Spam are pods and vanguard for the forward assault units and then an aegis line and objective holders for the rear guard and the 2+ cover on GTG

[Ushtarador]

we generally play with lots of ruins which we treat as 4+ cover, so maybe thats different in your local meta, true :huh: Do vendettas have 3 lascannons AND heavy bolters? o0

It surely isn't easy, devastators with signum might also be useful, if you play them that way.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

9x Vendettas and CoCDR w/Astropath (for LOS hiding on the board) runs at 1250pts.

 

Lets looks at a Tournament which usually is fixed to 5 turns: Assume NO Vendettas get killed and no Astropath to aid reserves.

 

 

Turn 2, 2/3 flyer units arrive and alphastrike.......................................................~2 squadrons of Vendettas: can shoot 2 targets.

 

Turn 3, 1st-wave moves 18", 2nd-wave 2/3 arrive...............................................~2-3 squadrons of Vendettas: can shoot 2 or 3 targets.

 

Turn 4, 1st-wave exits board, 2nd-wave move 18", 3rd-wave Auto-arrives...........~1-2 squadrons of Vendettas: can shoot 1 or 2 targets.

 

Turn 5, 1st wave re-enters, 2nd wave hovers/moves 18", 3rd-wave move 18"......3 squadrons of Vendettas: can shoot 3 targets.

 

 

So on average, a Vendetta-spam list can hammer 10 Units (less if squadrons combine fire). With a CoCDR w/Astropath hidden from LOS and with mixing in Hover mode so they don't leave the board (or if playing Long-table), that # of targets can rise to 12 maximum.

 

27 shots per turn, but only against 3 Targets.

 

So 3 Vendettas will give you 6.75 hits, 5.625 wounds, and 3.75 kills (if 5+ cover) against 1 target.

 

3 squadrons= 11.25 Kills per turn avg (5+ cover assumption) against 3 targets

 

45 Kills per game (5+ cover assumption) against 12 targets.

 

 

Note: the above numbers only calculate the Lascannons (copy-pasted from an old thread of mine) so there are still 18 Heavy Bolters unaccounted for.

 

 

 

Now the numbers get way better with 4+ cover, and also get better with each bird you DO manage to bring down. Flyer lists MUCH prefer to go 2nd, so on your first turn all scoring units HAUL A@@ towards the objectives and then go to ground... for like the rest of the game. Then your opponent must choose which to kill-- your scorers or your units which are capable of shooting back. Divination Libbys are going to be invaluable in a game like this, 3/7 powers will be useful (pray for Forewarning) and your heavy weapons can move all they'd like since they will be Snapfiring anyway.

 

Now of course your opponent will have the rest of his army list too, so you'll have to do the best you can locking in melee when possible, and finishing combat in his turn (pulling punches on charges if needed). All in All I can see this being a very grueling game.

 

A saving grace is that Horde Armies laugh at this list-- they can simply mob-up on the objectives. I think Horde Armies will be a reason this list never achieves super-tournament winner status. SO while the Vendettas and Astropath cost 1250pts, expect to see the rest of their points spent on anti-horde selections.

 

A final note towards fighting this list is GET IN THEIR FACE-- deep-strike everything you can as close into his deployment zone. When the flyers enter, it will take them 3 turns to realign towards something sitting in their own deployment zone, or else must hover. MAKE SURE you have units in-place which can capitalize on this situation if they ever go into Hover! And hide units in the flyers 'blind spot' whenever you can.

 

Someone playing a list like this is probably asleep at the wheel, trying to push the 'autowin' button. If you play smart and really think about what you're doing I think there's a shot at pulling one over on them.

[Ushtarador]

@citadelarmyguy Thats a very good point you make there. If you manage to go second and deepstrike as much as possible, you can position more than half of your army behind his flyers when they arrive, which means hover mode or no shooting for a looong time. :(

[Brynjolf Irontooth]

Nice posts already.

 

Thanks.

 

Though that tactic doesn't really work, does it?

 

Vendettas and Valkeries have the scout rule so come from the sides. And otherwise they can still move on from a table corner on their own side choosing a very steep angle (almost flying parallel to their table edge). So I don't think droppods and other units moving into their deployment zone will make the Guard flyers useless for a couple of turns.

 

Anyway, I think I'm suffering from flyer-fear. ;)

 

Don't know why. Maybe because vendettas were already too effective for their cheap pointcose in 5th and now they have only gotten better for free.

 

If Grey Knights were many players hated army to play against in 5th, then I declare Guard to be the best army (at this moment) in 6th.

 

My own thoughts:

- quad gun

- storm raven

- librarian with rerolls to give to your devastators' missile launchers

- twin-linked assault cannons

 

Btw, what do you guys think the best choice: quad gun on bastion, or on defence line?

 

 

Greets;

BI

[DominicJ]

I'm used to playing in store, and walls are everywhere, so 4 up cover for all, unless you are moving.

 

Tacticals are rather cheap, and easy to go mob handed with.

 

5 squads with rockets and plasma rifles 900 pts.

 

Its just a lot of marines to kill.

 

(not tried it yet, but am slowly working in that direction)

[Morticon]

Defense line. That 4+ cover is amazing. Also, with GTG at 2+, considering you're going to be snapfiring anyway- its great.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

@Brynjolf, thats a great point about Vendettas, I had forgotten their scout move for a second. Well what that means is pay attention during deployment--- your opponent has to tell you which ones are outflanking. Then you have to put everything you've got onto one flank, so that 1/3 squadrons fly over your head that way. Might work, might not-- but we're talking options so might as well bring it up.

 

Yah the deployment-zone rush I was talking about works better on Necron scythes. The outflanking Vendetta is different.

 

But in defense of deployment zone rush, yes about 1 or 2 flyers can use an extremely acute angle from their own board edge, but remember their models are big and with 45degree gun arcs, they will get in each others way and you can really cut down on the shots which can hit useful targets. Use geometry to your advantage when fighting mass-flyers.

 

Also, flyers come in Turn 2 max. Chances of having to leave the table at least once is pretty high-- so unless they hover, Flyers get 3 turns of shooting in a 5 turn game. Color me unimpressed :yes: I'm more afraid of a balanced-IG list that has 3 Vendettas as singles. It means they will have more than enough 'other stuff' while still having nasty side-armor shooting Vendettas. 9 Vendettas is a poor choice IMO but certainly 3 or perhaps even 6 would far worse to fight against.

 

Morticon, you make an awesome point about the defense line. Especially in a tournament situation being able to add your own cover-line to the table for 50pts is simply amazing. Going to ground while still making snap-shots at flyers is really great, that just makes me smile.

[Brynjolf Irontooth]

Going to ground as an anti-aircraft tactic: only snapshots as payment, while only allowed to snapshot. :yes: This sounds like a great tactic against a lot-of-flyers armies. ;) Makes sence too fluffwise. You're trying to hide away and snapshot at them while doing so.

 

Don't know how useful this may be as a real game tactic, but I think it has its uses depending on what armylist you're facing, and as always depending on a specific game situation for a specific unit. Have to remember this. Thanks.

[nagashnee]

Imperial armor aeronautica has given us quite a few toys with which to shoot down flyers, land raider hyperios or the AA whirwind are both great choices. Mortis contemptor dreadnought are also great against pretty much anything andthat included flyers.

 

Not to mention the book has a clear stipulation that this is all 40k legal and does not require opponents consent, so that takes care of any pesky anti FW crybaby's.

[Brynjolf Irontooth]

Tournaments however don't allow Forge World, weither it says 'allowed' or not, they don't care. So I only play things that are allowed in tournaments.

 

I actually think Forgeworld should be kept for fun (= friendly) battles.

[Mezkh]

Depends on your area, but quite a lot of TOs do seem to allow FW 40k units now.

[nagashnee]

Tournaments however don't allow Forge World, weither it says 'allowed' or not, they don't care. So I only play things that are allowed in tournaments.

 

I actually think Forgeworld should be kept for fun (= friendly) battles.

 

Poppycock! Plenty of tournaments allow FW, plenty don't too, you cant just say they do or don't as they vary greatly country to country, place to place, gaming groups to gaming groups.

 

And as tournaments all allow and disallow different things ( special characters as an example) not being something that can be used in any 40k game because of the possibility it might not be allowed at some events would limit what you can field and play to a great extent.

 

Your are entitled to your opinion of course, just like i thing Grey Knights should not have a codex :D .

[Brynjolf Irontooth]

Oh, I don't even disagree. I was just mentioning a fact. Based on my local (/national) background ofcourse. But I thought that was clear. B)

 

All our opinions are coloured by our local meta game, local tournament policy, ... No need to add this to every single post we make. ^_^