Russ' Psychic Howl/Magnus' Fire Punch

[Gree]

You confuse me, sir. Which part of Aurelian? Is it the part where Lorgar's psychic anger reaches Magnus halfway across the galaxy? Or the part where Magnus talks about how strong Lorgar has grown? Or the part where Lorgar and Magnus are the only primarchs to psychically see that Fulgrim is possessed? Or the part where Lorgar's psychic power threatens Magnus's manifestation? Or the part where Lorgar threatens Magnus not to pry into his thoughts again, and Magnus backs down and complies?

 

Was it those parts of Aurelian that convinced you he was a "poor man's Magnus"?

 

Hello. I don't want to sound provocative or offensive, but it is something that bugged me since i first read spoilers from Aurelian: does this mean Lorgar is Magnus' equal now? A guy who first activated his powers few days ago vs a guy who supposed to be ultimate psyker and studied warp for over two centuries? Not sure I like it, though of course author knows best.

 

Well, at least we have virtual confirmation that Lorgar would have beaten Guilliman at Calth.

 

A daemonic vision certainly seems to show that, yep.

 

I dreamed I was an AT-AT driver the other day. I hope that comes true, as well.

 

I speak of Kor Phaeron taking out Guilliman in three hits and then having Guilliman at his mercy. Lorgar is logically stronger than Kor Phaeron, yes?

 

Wait. Does this mean I will get to drive an AT-AT, or not?

 

Do you go through films like Se7en and argue over who has a better Ballistic Skill, John Doe or Detective David Mills? And who would win in a gunfight? I mean, the cop has way more experience, right? So the cop will always, always, always win, right? No cop has ever been killed by someone with way less experience than them, no? No cop has ever been shot and/or killed in those circumstances, right? Just like the US Army, who've marched an overwhelming occupation force into Iraw, lost no one to the unarmoured, ill-equipped insurgents who were vaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaastly outnumbered and outgunned, no?

 

This is exactly what you're doing, man. It's exactly what's so freaking worthless in these discussions.

 

Context. Subtext. Circumstance. The moment itself, not a gamer's guess at Power Levels.

 

There is a difference between being blindsided, or hit by a lucky round, or taking some damage in a fight, as opposed to being knocked down in three hits in a straight up fight and then at the mercy of your opponet. In fact said fight was pretty one-sided. I'm not sure what would be different had Lorgar been in Kor Phaeron's place. For the Ultramarines introductory novel it's not a shining example for Ultramarine fans to cheer about.

 

I apologize, but based off of Guilliman's performance, it's really quite hard to argue that Lorgar would have not beaten him. A daemonic vision showing Lorgar beating Guilliman does not help matters at all. If Guilliman had other fights to show how strong he was, then yes we might write it off as Guilliman just getting unlucky. But we don’t and thus Guilliman looks rather weak.

[overloard]

No, because it's not a case of one person having 10 in a stat and another having 9, or both simply having 10.

 

Nuance. Subtlety. Degrees.

 

I'll honestly never understand how some readers' minds work. Take every scene, and every moment, as it's presented. Don't go book by book saying "Character X is definitely Y."

 

Yes, Lorgar was "weaker" than the other primarchs in The First Heretic. It's a narrative arc. Character development. People (and therefore, realistic characters) change over time. They get wounded, and worse at what they were good at. They grow stronger in some areas. A few instances of Lorgar's newfound strength in Aurelian doesn't mean he's now "stronger" than Magnus or his "equal", and nor does it mean he's "weaker". It means exactly what the text says in that scene. It means Magnus said "Damn, you got good at this" and the exact details are in doubt. No more, no less.

 

Judging an entire character's potential and personal ability on that is madness, so it always amazes me when people extrapolate five minutes of a character's screentime to mean everything about what that character is capable of - such as in the freaking ghastly "My primarch can beat your primarch" arguments.

Well, thanks for reply. Didn't want to appear shallow, but i find comparing character power levels one of the most interesting things in 40k, including "primach vs primarch" arguments, so when books feature primarchs' interactions/confrontations i sometimes can't help but narrow it down to comparison of stats and skills. It's not like it prevents me from appreciating storyline and characters development, but it's important aspect too.

 

Well, at least we have virtual confirmation that Lorgar would have beaten Guilliman at Calth.

Yeah, judging from Guilliman's perfromance in KNF, Lorgar would have slaughtered him. Doesn't really matter it was daemonic vision, common sense suggest Lorgar > Kor Phaeron, so that's it.

[A D-B]

There is a difference between being blindsided, or hit by a lucky round, or taking some damage in a fight, as opposed to being knocked down in three hits in a straight up fight and then at the mercy of your opponet. In fact said fight was pretty one-sided. For the Ultramarines introductory novel it's not a shining example for Ultramarine fans to cheer about.

 

I apologize, but based off of Guilliman's performance, it's really quite hard to argue that Lorgar would have not beaten him. A daemonic vision showing Lorgar beating Guilliman does not help matters at all. If Guilliman had other fights to show how strong he was, then yes we might write it off as Guilliman just getting unlucky. But we don’t and thus Guilliman looks rather weak.

 

The key point here is twofold:

 

Firstly, the bolded words above. You're still doing that thing of judging Luke's skill as a Jedi halfway through The Empire Strikes Back, and saying it looks like he'll never beat Vader. You just don't know. No one does. Guilliman may have many more fights that show the moment with Kor Phaeron as an anomaly in an otherwise glittering career.

 

Secondly, much more importantly, these debates are worthless, and threaded with fan bias and self-entitlement. They're literally no different from going into Se7en and arguing over David Mills' skills with a gun over John Doe's. You remember the part when they reach his apartment? John Doe doesn't catch them cold. He runs, chased by the experienced cops, and the scene still ends in him pistol-whipping the detective in the rain and getting away.

 

Let's take the Lion. He fights Curze, gets the first blow in, and is still fought to a standstill, arguably "saved" by one of his own men as Curze is bashing his skull open on the rocks. And then the next time they meet, the Lion cuts Curze's throat in a matter of seconds. Just like any boxing match, or fight between two armies, or gunfight between two people - shouting "But this guy's more skilled!" means almost nothing in the context of the actual confrontation.

 

Every scene, every fight, every confrontation, is its own thing. It's not inconsistency. It's bringing realism and narrative depth to something that's far, far more than a board game now.

 

This is the last I'll say on it, because, frankly, by this point it's just painful.

[Gree]

Firstly, the bolded words above. You're still doing that thing of judging Luke's skill as a Jedi halfway through The Empire Strikes Back, and saying it looks like he'll never beat Vader. You just don't know. No one does. Guilliman may have many more fights that show the moment with Kor Phaeron as an anomaly in an otherwise glittering career.

 

He could, but as an Ultramarine fan I have no other fights to boast about. Right now Guilliman is looking rather inferior compared to what his brothers are doing. With Luke we can follow his journey and know what he is doing far more closely than we can follow Guilliman.

 

Let's take the Lion. He fights Curze, gets the first blow in, and is still fought to a standstill, arguably "saved" by one of his own men as Curze is bashing his skull open on the rocks. And then the next time they meet, the Lion cuts Curze's throat in a matter of seconds. Just like any boxing match, or fight between two armies, or gunfight between two people - shouting "But this guy's more skilled!" means almost nothing in the context of the actual confrontation.

 

Every scene, every fight, every confrontation, is its own thing. It's not inconsistency. It's bringing realism and narrative depth to something that's far, far more than a board game now.

 

I'm sorry, but I'm honestly not sure what would have went different had Lorgar replaced Kor Phaeron, other than Lorgar smashing his Crozius into Guilliman's skull instead of trying to turn him. They would have still both lined up and Lorgar/Phaeron would have still blasted him with psychic bolts.

[Captain Idaho]

I'm an Ultramarines fan and I will put my hand up and confirm my belief that Lorgar, with his new found psychic might, would have beaten Guilliman in the place of Kor Phaeron in Know No Fear. The "defeat" Guilliman suffered had nothing to do with power, ability, grit and muscles. It was purely Guilliman doing what he NEVER did; walking into a fight unprepared. Had he done this, Lorgar would have beaten Guilliman too.

 

Information from Rules of Engagement and the aftermath of Know No Fear that the wheels inside Guilliman's head were turning in regards to what happened in Calth. It's a sure bet he won't be caught so unawares in the future!

 

Now trying to swing things back to the topic purpose, can someone remember whether Ferrus Manus used special powers to destroy the blade wielded by Fulgrim?

[overloard]

Now trying to swing things back to the topic purpose, can someone remember whether Ferrus Manus used special powers to destroy the blade wielded by Fulgrim?

 

IIRC Ferrus just catched Fulgrim's blade, said that since he forged it he could also destroy it, and the blade exploded. I think it has more to do with his hands than with psychic powers.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah he might have just crushed it and it shattered.

 

It is an enigmatic line though and the resulting explosion seemed greater than merely a power weapon energy generator. I want to believe it was part of his abilities. ^_^

[overloard]

Yeah he might have just crushed it and it shattered.

 

It is an enigmatic line though and the resulting explosion seemed greater than merely a power weapon energy generator. I want to believe it was part of his abilities. :D

Well he obviously had some powers ^_^. Blade didn't just crushed under physical pressure, it exploded as soon as Ferrus said his line about forging it, but was it due to Necron hands or some latent psychic power i'm not sure.

[Sazabi24]

Also

haven't read the book but Curze seems to mentally possess the crows hence prince of crows.

 

Haven't read Prince of Crows either, but that seems to be an extraordinarily useless power, as only Terra (might) have crows, unless there are SPESS CROWS.

 

Sevatar is the Prince of Crows. And the power in the novella is nothing like that. Give me a little credit. Even calling it "the power" is lame and misses the point.

 

Only on the internet will you find such a poignant and sickening scene reduced to "LOL THIS SUCKS ON TABLETOP" and such wild disinformation. God bless us all, and forgive those of us who try to bring depth to 40K.

 

I guess I misinterpreted Billuriye's statement believing that he stated something along the lines of "Curze is a psyker who controls black birds commonly referred to by terrans as "crows"

[Legatus]

Secondly, much more importantly, these debates are worthless

Nonsense, they power 50% of the internets.

 

 

But yeah, it was not really like Guilliman got cought on the wrong foot by Kor Phaeron. They face off, Guilliman get's a smack down. Not a lot that could go better for Guilliman next time. I guess if he henceforth travels with a retinue of Sisters if Silence or Librarians he will have a chance.

 

Honestly, it is not really like we can simply point towards an "actual/estimated" competence of our fictional heroes (with nuanced assessment of their capabilities and not giving too much weight in individual instances) that has more significance than their "portrayed competence" (which really only represents a few snap shots of their career). In a fictional setting the "portrayed competence" is a very important quantity.

[MadDoc]

Lorgar being poor man's Magnus.

Most notably in Aurelian.

You confuse me, sir. Which part of Aurelian? Is it the part where Lorgar's psychic anger reaches Magnus halfway across the galaxy? Or the part where Magnus talks about how strong Lorgar has grown? Or the part where Lorgar and Magnus are the only primarchs to psychically see that Fulgrim is possessed? Or the part where Lorgar's psychic power threatens Magnus's manifestation? Or the part where Lorgar threatens Magnus not to pry into his thoughts again, and Magnus backs down and complies?

 

Was it those parts of Aurelian that convinced you he was a "poor man's Magnus"?

Apologies Aaron, you seem to be conflating the text I quoted with me agreeing that Lorgar is a "poor man's Magnus", which isn't the case. It was simply a matter of me quoting Billuriye verbatim and giving more specific references.

 

My remark was about Lorgar's awakened psychic abilities being most evident in Aurelian, not about Aurelian being the most evident example of him being a poor man's Magnus. Sorry for the confusion.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Let's please get back on topic....

 

Are their any other specific primarch abilities that have been displayed?

[Marshal Wilhelm]

So you cannot actually cite anything, but instead are pulling from Lexicanum or some other fan created source?

Unlike alot of what I see on here, there are actual sources for most of what Billuriye posted (he even gave you a very broad indication of where to look). Your snarky reply only serves to illustrate your own ignorance.

 

In an effort to remedy that shortcoming...

Corax fogging minds, rendering himself invisible.

Raven's Flight (audio) and Deliverance Lost.

 

Curze displaying minor case of telekinesis and heavily biased but accurate foresight.

The Dark King.

 

Lorgar being poor man's Magnus.

Most notably in Aurelian.

 

Lion putting up a psychic forcefield.

The Lion novella in The Primarchs.

 

Sanguinius' foresight and imbuing his weapon with psychic flame.

His prescience is well established in the background, but both are mentioned in Fear to Tread.

 

*starts instigating BL target to read list*

Raven's Flight

The Dark King

Aurelian

The Primarchs

Fear to Tread

 

These all sound pretty sweet!

I am finishing off The Fist Heretic and The Outcast Dead, at the moment, but looks like I have something to look forwards to in the HH series after all ;)

 

Guilliman is shown monitoring and registering the data stream of an entire planet's logistical endeavours in 'Know No Fear'. And he can count the number of spilled tootpicks in like a heartbeat.

 

Legatus, did you just crack a joke....? *squints hard, incredulous at such a thing happening* ;)

[Sazabi24]

Let's please get back on topic....

 

Are their any other specific primarch abilities that have been displayed?

 

Lion does some sort of psychic rage punch that channels his anger through a sword to blow up a two headed oracle of Tzeench. (The Lion)

[Acebaur]

All, I have removed some off topic posts and portions of posts. Any further digression from the topic at hand will result in the removal of your entire post, regardless of the rest of it's contents.

[Wade Garrett]

Fulgrim melts a Titan with the power of his mind in "The Reflection Crack'd" in the Primarchs anthology.

[Billuriye]

Lorgar being poor man's Magnus.

 

And Luke was a terrible Jedi five minutes after he got given a lightsaber, but we don't judge him on that. Lorgar has now displayed much, much stronger psychic mastery in three releases since then: Aurelian, The Butcher's Nails, and arguably Know No Fear.

 

 

Ok. Middle class Magnus then?

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Lorgar is an interesting case. He starts off with large, yet untapped and unreliable, potential. As he delves deper into the mysteries of chaos he learns to channel and enance his power.

 

Bear in mind that Magnus is still not utilising the full potential of Tzeentch while Lorgar is quite happily mixing sorcery and warp-craft with his already powerful innate ability.

 

Post-heresy nobody could hold a candle to Magnus as he is well and truly devoted to tzeentch and utilising all thr gifts that it entails but untill he crosses that line Lorgar is the daddy.

 

That's my opinion anyway.

[Arachnid99]

Lorgar is an interesting case. He starts off with large, yet untapped and unreliable, potential. As he delves deper into the mysteries of chaos he learns to channel and enance his power.

 

Bear in mind that Magnus is still not utilising the full potential of Tzeentch while Lorgar is quite happily mixing sorcery and warp-craft with his already powerful innate ability.

 

Post-heresy nobody could hold a candle to Magnus as he is well and truly devoted to tzeentch and utilising all thr gifts that it entails but untill he crosses that line Lorgar is the daddy.

 

That's my opinion anyway.

 

I have to disagree. IMHO it's comparing apples and oranges but that said Lorgar's talents is narrow and focused, in his field (warp-craft fuelled primarch pskyer abilities) at this point his the best in the Galaxy. Magnus in contrast has centuries of study of a wide variety of disciplines and techniques, not just one. However he doesn't have the Gods boosting his powers at this point. So Magnus is the pskyer all rounder while Lorgar is the specialist.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Lorgar is an interesting case. He starts off with large, yet untapped and unreliable, potential. As he delves deper into the mysteries of chaos he learns to channel and enance his power.

 

Bear in mind that Magnus is still not utilising the full potential of Tzeentch while Lorgar is quite happily mixing sorcery and warp-craft with his already powerful innate ability.

 

Post-heresy nobody could hold a candle to Magnus as he is well and truly devoted to tzeentch and utilising all thr gifts that it entails but untill he crosses that line Lorgar is the daddy.

 

That's my opinion anyway.

 

I have to disagree. IMHO it's comparing apples and oranges but that said Lorgar's talents is narrow and focused, in his field (warp-craft fuelled primarch pskyer abilities) at this point his the best in the Galaxy. Magnus in contrast has centuries of study of a wide variety of disciplines and techniques, not just one. However he doesn't have the Gods boosting his powers at this point. So Magnus is the pskyer all rounder while Lorgar is the specialist.

 

So Magnus is the Wizard and Lorgar is the Sorceror? :woot:

[Chaplain ChonkE]

Lorgar is a cleric and Magnus is a Wizard/Warlock multi-class. They both have like 50 levels of fighter on top of that though

[Blacksad]

wouldn't magnus be more wizard - cleric with mystic theurge prestige class?

[Brother Captain Kezef]

wouldn't magnus be more wizard - cleric with mystic theurge prestige class?

 

Sorceror/favoured soul plus mystic theurge would be Lorgar.

 

Magnus is wizard with full archmage progression

[carpediem]

Given who their daddy is it wouldn't surprise me if all the Primarchs displayed some level of psychic ability, even if they can only use it on instinct or are in complete denial (Russ and Mortarion, almost certainly) about it's nature. Actually, scratch that; if Necron fluff is still as I remember, and the hints GW throws about him are correct, Ferrus Manus may not.

 

To use TV tropes' terminology (standard terminology?) Magnus the Red is an exceptionally powerful (ahem) Red Mage and Lorgar Aureilian is a Theurgist

[Antarius]

There is a difference between being blindsided, or hit by a lucky round, or taking some damage in a fight, as opposed to being knocked down in three hits in a straight up fight and then at the mercy of your opponet. In fact said fight was pretty one-sided. I'm not sure what would be different had Lorgar been in Kor Phaeron's place. For the Ultramarines introductory novel it's not a shining example for Ultramarine fans to cheer about.

Well, I LOLed.

 

I can't imagine why this is still an issue -or why it needs to be brought up in pretty much every unrelated thread- but if you really want Guilliman to get the short end of the stick that badly, there's certainly none of us here that can convince you otherwise.

 

As for psychic abilities, I'm guessing any of the primarchs might have psychic potential. Whether they're shown to use it and whether it even shows up like an obvious psychic power will differ greatly according to the primarch (and, realistically speaking, the author).