Legion organization in the wake of FTT

[nagashnee]

Ok so no matter of your opinion of Fear to Tread be it good or bad the book has shed some light on the numbers, organization and workings of the IX legion at the time of the great crusade.

 

Facts:

 

i) Legion of approximately 120.000 astartes.

2) Legion divided into 300 companies each with its own captain and hierarchy.

 

Now this leads to some interesting questions, usually a marine company during the heresy era is given as 1.000 marines, the equivalent of a 40k chapter, however simple math tells us this cannot be the case as if that was the case the legion would be in the 300k+ margins.

 

Furthermore is the issue of how the apothecarium, legion chaplains ( wardens) and techmarines are structured. Do they exist in their own companies and then seconded to the rest, exist outside the normal legion organizational template or are impeded and exist at a company level. A case can be made for each of the above.

 

I would like to hear people thoughts on this matter.

 

Personally i see it as the following, BA companies consist of approximately 500 marines at full strength. techmarines, apothecarys and chaplains (wardens) exist outside of the normal legion organization and are seconded to companies as required.

 

The 120k mark is of battle-line astartes and does not include the like of scours, chaplains ( wardens), sanguinary guard and so on, very much as the 40k chapter organization functions.

[Alkana]

usually a marine company during the heresy era is given as 1.000 marines

 

I don't recall this being the case, but if it is, then the bolded word explains it all. 400 Marines in a company is still a lot of Astartes.

[DominicJ]

Paper formations and actual formations can differ wildly.

 

 

A Legion thats just gone through the grinder will be hugely under strength, but if (when?) it harvests the dead, and implants new candidates, well, 2 scouts for every dead marine.

[Taranis]

Paper formations and actual formations can differ wildly.

 

 

A Legion thats just gone through the grinder will be hugely under strength, but if (when?) it harvests the dead, and implants new candidates, well, 2 scouts for every dead marine.

That presumes they won and control the battlefield afterwards.....

[Brother Nathan]

dont i recall something of a high casualty rate even during the pre-herasy era, but was countered by the fact it only takes us a year to do the transformation to marine. just needs trained til he earns his power armour. also we know a few things. we had libarians but when the emperor ruled against it sanguinius would have accepted it and removed them(one way or another) and the same with chaplains. also no death co(obviously) but sanguary priests would have been our big thing still back then though wouldn't have had as much a ministerial role that they have currently. how much of the command structure that leaves though... but then again with sanguinius there who really needs a command structure. company sizes likely differed in our legion partially as a reflection of the chapters they would later become too. so who knows, is there even much in the new HH book about our organisation etc?

[nagashnee]

usually a marine company during the heresy era is given as 1.000 marines

 

I don't recall this being the case, but if it is, then the bolded word explains it all. 400 Marines in a company is still a lot of Astartes.

 

Well iirc, ultras, sons of horus and word bearers all work int his mode.

 

I agree 400 is a nice number, it just strikes me as a very odd number to form a company around.

 

Paper formations and actual formations can differ wildly.

 

Agreed, but i am trying to figure out the legion organizational numbers, which would not be affected by any event other then a restructuring of the legion similar to what the Raven Guard did following the drop site massacre.

[Vodunius]

Horus Heresy: Collected visions detailed the standard structure for the legions as:

100 marines = company led by a captain

5 companes (500 men) = battalion led by a lieutenant-commander

2 battalions (1,000 men) = regiment/wing/chapter led by a commander

 

Supposedly Alan Merrit told the BL authors to use those numbers but they.. didn't.

 

 

Personally I'd be temped to go with 3 battalions of 3 companies however, as that is apparently what the original BA drop markings were intended for.

[Venerable Jazzman]

as that is apparently what the original BA drop markings were intended for

I hadn't heard that before - what's it from?

[Vodunius]

as that is apparently what the original BA drop markings were intended for

I hadn't heard that before - what's it from?

 

The concept sketches for the Ultramarine scheme that accompanied the Blood Angels in the WD129 Tactical Squad article was published in UK WD346 (its in the Evolution of the Space Marines article in the White Dwarf archive on the GW site). The four campaign badges includes the martian campaign as well as the general horus heresy one, whilst the company colours are not labelled company 1-9 but instead Company 1-3 & Battalion 1-3, which means they were intended for use with the Horus Heresy army list in WD126 (since that's the only place marines had ever used battalions). The Blood Angel system in WD129 suddenly makes sense if you apply it to that: the colour denotes the company (1-3) whilst the # of drops denotes the battalion.

[Nova_Dew]

If you go by the WD126 of Company, Battalion, Regiment we end up with 400 marines in a company, 1200 in a Battalion (just over a chapter..) and 3600 marines in a Regiment... and that makes 33 Regiments (or Crusade fleets??) with 3 companies left over to protect the Baal system there we get our 120,000 strong Legion and a marking system that works..kind of.. I wounder what the now 4th and 5th company marking were or if they were added later and what the regiment markings were...

 

 

hmmm now to figure it out as 4 companies to a battalion and 4 battalions to a regiment would do

 

 

It apears with the 4-4 system we would get 18 regiments of 6400 marines (1600 per battalion) with 3 battlions left over

[Vodunius]

If you go by the WD126 of Company, Battalion, Regiment we end up with 400 marines in a company, 1200 in a Battalion (just over a chapter..) and 3600 marines in a Regiment... and that makes 33 Regiments

 

o.O how on Earth did you get that? Assuming nothing but Tactical detachments (which are twice the size of any other) maximum size is 120 per company, 520 per battalion (including crews for every detachment to be mounted in Land Raiders) and 1817 for the Regiment. And that's without anything but Tacticals mounted in Land Raiders except the Battalion & Regimental HQ's. The example Regiment in the article had something like 780 marines in total.

[Nova_Dew]

We know the BA have 300 Companies and 120,000 marines

 

so 120,000/300=400 marines a company

 

3 companies to a battalion = 1200 marines

 

3 battalions to a regiment = 3600 marines

 

120,000/3600 (a regement) = 33.3 or 33 regiments and a battalion + some odd bods

 

 

It could be that after reaching 300 companies (if they didnt start like that) they started reinforcing the companies instead of adding extra ones

[A D-B]

Horus Heresy: Collected visions detailed the standard structure for the legions as:

100 marines = company led by a captain

5 companes (500 men) = battalion led by a lieutenant-commander

2 battalions (1,000 men) = regiment/wing/chapter led by a commander

 

Supposedly Alan Merrit told the BL authors to use those numbers but they.. didn't.

 

 

Personally I'd be temped to go with 3 battalions of 3 companies however, as that is apparently what the original BA drop markings were intended for.

 

I'm not sure that's true. I was the one who got the Legion sizes solidified in the meetings, by asking flat-out if we were using older lore (as the series had done up until The First Heretic) or the newer lore in the codices and Collected Visions. But there wasn't any discussion of battalions and company size until several meetings later, and the only thing to break that was Know No Fear, with Dan's vision of the Ultramarine organisation.

 

Any changes are an updating, that other sources will likely follow.

[Darklighter]

Horus Heresy: Collected visions detailed the standard structure for the legions as:

100 marines = company led by a captain

5 companes (500 men) = battalion led by a lieutenant-commander

2 battalions (1,000 men) = regiment/wing/chapter led by a commander

 

Supposedly Alan Merrit told the BL authors to use those numbers but they.. didn't.

 

 

Personally I'd be temped to go with 3 battalions of 3 companies however, as that is apparently what the original BA drop markings were intended for.

 

I'm not sure that's true. I was the one who got the Legion sizes solidified in the meetings, by asking flat-out if we were using older lore (as the series had done up until The First Heretic) or the newer lore in the codices and Collected Visions. But there wasn't any discussion of battalions and company size until several meetings later, and the only thing to break that was Know No Fear, with Dan's vision of the Ultramarine organisation.

 

Any changes are an updating, that other sources will likely follow.

 

So would you not of been informed of what went down in the meeting to do with Battalions (if I've read your post correctly you missed) as it seems like something important enough for a HH writer to know. I understand if it's just slipped your mind at the moment of typing, but it would be interesting to know what it should be officially?

[Killax]

I like this thread, but the thing is, the numbers always change.

 

So in short the real numbers remain unknown, not only unknown but also greatly un-important.

 

As mentioned, casulties make the army size very dependant on wins and losses. For instance, after the Armegeddon war the numbers would be lower etc. etc.

 

It's nice to see some random guesses here and there but imho it will remain just a guess.