Lessons learnt on the battlefield earlier today

[Brother Nemiel]

Lessons learnt on the battle field.

 

+++ Excerpt from the tactical archives of the third company from the emperors first legion +++

Archived indexes: cycles 39 - 98

Added case notes from archivist Demetrius Vindth, astartes administratum

Class: code yellow

Retrieving data...

 

...Today the third company saw action twice. Once against the orks and once against the necrons. In light of the events of the day it is uncertain whether the glorious third could fight its way out of the proverbial paper bag. The biggest lessons I learnt today was:

 

- I suck at deploying

- I need more anti-infantry power

- I hate tesla weapons

- Plasma rocks

 

The first battle was against the orcs: I deployed behind defensive barricades and commenced shooting. The orcs swarmed me in close combat, as the third company failed to kill them at a distance and/or fast enough.

 

The second battle was against the necrons:The necrons outshot me, they killed me off faster than I could kill them.

 

The only thing that even remotely got "it" done in either of the battles were plasma weapons, a tri-las predator and the effect of fearlessness from my independent characters.

 

(Added, comment from archivist and biographer: Battle-brother Nemiel often used to act though in charge of the third company despite only being a member, valued such, of the company command squad. Many have later theorized whether he actually was in complete control. However most such inquiries have been stopped quickly without anyone being able to tell why. the same applies to his somewhat coarse use of low gothic as demonstrated in his biographical archives.)

 

Today's battles have started several things in motion which will result in the reorganization of the FOC for future battles. Even though I'm not in officially in charge of my company I'm sure that with the right persuation I can manage to bend company master Andamiel to my will. I will drown my enemies in plasm**.

 

(**Added, comment by archivist and biographer: Battle-Brother Nemiel has often used the derogatory term of "plasm" in reference to the torrent of fire from the chapters revered and ancient plasma weapons. He was later confronted by the, now late, honored interrogator-chaplain Castiel before his disappearance. It was reported by certain witnesses that the last time anyone saw Castiel was when Nemiel told him that "My inner circle is more inner than yours..." before leaving for the training facilities before noon prayer at the fortress monastery, with as the eyewitnesses say, an enigmatic smile.)

 

I will remove my scouts as they amounted to squat during both battles. The one time they were ordered to outflank they pretty much missed the entire battle. I will not forgive any of them. The future members of the third Company will now receive their training from using various available logic engines in the ancient machine code rites known as "counter strike" and "gears of war". The honored techpriest Telemachus has recommended these so-called "programs" as a suitable training form. Besides how much training does it take to pull the trigger of a plasma gun?

 

The FOC I used was (in both battles for a thousand points):

 

HQ: Company master & librarian

Elite: 10 scouts with 8 sniper rifles, one missile launcher

Troops: two tactical squads. Both with plasma guns, one with a plasma cannon, the other with a heavy bolter.

Heavy: Tri-las predator

 

My new organization will be as follows (for 1.5K):

 

HQ: Librarian & command squad with apothecary, banner bearer and two plasma guns

Elite: 5 company veterans with a plasma gun and a plasma cannon (could also be substituted with a plasma cannon armed venerable dread)

Troops: three tactical squads. All with plasma guns, one with plasma cannon, one with a heavy bolter and the last with a lascannon.

Heavy: One tri-las pred (Nemiel-Pattern*), One whirlwind and one five man devastator squad with four plasma cannons.

 

(*Added, comment from archivist and biographer: Battle-brother Nemiel once again reveals the depth of his hubris. Nemiel-pattern indeed...)

 

According to the list it will include:

- A banner to promote loyalty, devotion and morale

- 6 plasma guns and 6 plasma cannons

 

These should be enough to add some heavy anti-personnel firepower. The term "personnel" is used lightly considering the opposition... Filthy xenos...

More the be added later to the archives...

 

Resume on future undisclosed date.

 

End extraction.

 

+++ Transmission terminated +++

 

(Out of character comment #1: A set of short stories regarding Nemiel and his "run-ins" with interrogator-chaplain Castiel are in the process. Are they deemed even remotely good enough they will get "published" at B&C)

 

(Out of character comment #2: Thanks for reading this far.)

 

Edit: spelling

[Pbenner]

Rough lists from the opposition? Orks are rough just for the sheer number of dice they can throw on the charge. While Plasma Cannon templates can be good for this, a flamer to the face is also really good. This is a though. Horde LRCs are going to give anyone fits. Missiles coming board edge to board edge early on can break them right before charge range, generally limiting their foot slogging. The Waaaaaaagh can be a pain though.

 

I hate Necrons, and will leave it at that. Depending on the list they can hurt pretty bad. Remember, take your lumps and learn, even Caesar never won every battle...

 

Paul

[Brother Nemiel]

Rough lists from the opposition?

Oh, let's see (as far as I can remember)...

 

Orks:

 

Warboss with nob crew of about half a dozen

Two huge mobs of boys

Three killa kans

One dread

Some kind of looted tank

 

Necrons:

 

Lord with retinue

Doomsday arc with repair spider

three wraiths

gang of necron warriors

Annihilation barge

Unit of immortals (I think)

 

Remember, take your lumps and learn, even Caesar never won every battle...

Oh, I will ;) I just felt like blowing some steam when I got home after the games. It was fun but could have been even more if something had gone right... :)

First two games for me in 6th edition too. Thanks for the encouragement though!

[CovertToaster]

I can see your problem against the orks. The vehicles they are using are all light, looted wagons and killa kans are only AV11, and the deff dread is a dreadnought equivalent. Your sniper rifles could destroy them without too much difficulty but they would be better used to take out the nobs as they cross the board. That leaves your tri-las pred to deal with the all of the vehicles by itself.

 

That's largely it really if you had two cheaper preds with AC/Las or Las/HB's then you should take out those walkers quite easily. You really only need one squad of scouts as they fire too slow to stop a hoard and are best at shooting tough, high value infantry like his nobs. After that two HQ's at 1000 points is too many that's probably around a quarter of your points.

 

I'd say similar comments would be valid for fighting necrons except they have tougher infantry and better vehicles than orks. I think you just went with too many high powered units. These things happen just learn from it and you'll soon be thrashing the pants off of both armies.

[Isiah]

Yes in addition I think two HQs at 1k points is a little overkill and 10 Scouts (or any Scouts) were too much. That aside: nothing wrong with losing a few games as long as you learn from the experience :blink:. So better luck next time as they say :tu:.

 

Cheers

I

[HJL]

i play orks, very similar to that list. flamers seem good on paper but generaly speeking in order to use them you have to be close enough to get charged the next turn. try taking a devestator squad with 4 missile launchers, it will chew through the dreads and his vehicles and puts down a lot of anti infantry fire in frag missiles.

 

if you are going to have to fight him in close combat, make sure that you charge him, he is only s3 if he is charged with 1 less attack. make sure you charge him in overwhealming numbers too, dont get tied down so that you are an easy charge target for nobs.

[Brother Nemiel]

I can see your problem against the orks. The vehicles they are using are all light, looted wagons and killa kans are only AV11, and the deff dread is a dreadnought equivalent. Your sniper rifles could destroy them without too much difficulty but they would be better used to take out the nobs as they cross the board. That leaves your tri-las pred to deal with the all of the vehicles by itself.

 

That's largely it really if you had two cheaper preds with AC/Las or Las/HB's then you should take out those walkers quite easily. You really only need one squad of scouts as they fire too slow to stop a hoard and are best at shooting tough, high value infantry like his nobs. After that two HQ's at 1000 points is too many that's probably around a quarter of your points.

 

I'd say similar comments would be valid for fighting necrons except they have tougher infantry and better vehicles than orks. I think you just went with too many high powered units. These things happen just learn from it and you'll soon be thrashing the pants off of both armies.

 

Yeah, I'm aware that two HQ at 1K is way too many. I got really good proof at that too ;) The thing was that I wanted to have everything painted for the battle. It was originally meant that instead of the company master I should have wielded a whirlwind instead. That should have cut down some of the boys. I was really surprised how in effective the scouts were against ork boys. I think they should be taken as smaller units and go character hunting instead. Question is what I should have fielded at 1K instead of the scouts? One more tac squad or some cheaper dakka at heavy support, either a dakka tank or dev squad (with either Hvy bolters or plasma cannons).

 

Yes in addition I think two HQs at 1k points is a little overkill and 10 Scouts (or any Scouts) were too much. That aside: nothing wrong with losing a few games as long as you learn from the experience :D. So better luck next time as they say :P.

 

Cheers

I

 

I had my suspicions regarding two HQ's and got that proven to me. I will sooner or later start winning. The scouts were a surprise though.

 

i play orks, very similar to that list. flamers seem good on paper but generaly speeking in order to use them you have to be close enough to get charged the next turn. try taking a devestator squad with 4 missile launchers, it will chew through the dreads and his vehicles and puts down a lot of anti infantry fire in frag missiles.

 

if you are going to have to fight him in close combat, make sure that you charge him, he is only s3 if he is charged with 1 less attack. make sure you charge him in overwhealming numbers too, dont get tied down so that you are an easy charge target for nobs.

 

I have to see my bitsbox regarding those missile launchers. Hopefully I can find something suitable. Otherwise I might go for plasma or Hvy bolters (atleast till I get parts for the missile launchers). Thanks for the charge tip.

[Kewl Imp]

I'm still new overall, but I would have kept a squad of scouts and used them against his HQs and a half squad of tacticals.

[Azrael Turnbull]

Replace Scouts with Dreadnought. Ork choppas loooooooove Dreadnoughts. 1 HQ in 1K is an unwritten law. Make it a Librarian or Chaplain; the Company Master has little to offer in close combat against horde opponents. Librarian will be good with divination or other spells that affect 'whole units'. The Chaplain is simply good a smashing things.

 

As for Necrons, I do not hold much experience when I battle them. I've played them about 4 times and haven't lost yet, so have no further advice to give other than one thing: Space Marines are 'Jack of all trades, master of none'. Basic Necron Warriors will outshoot Tac's, but close combat is a different matter. If you chase them down, it will also see to that pesky 'we'll be back' rule. Beware of Necron characters, though, they have some interesting anti'combat abilities. Declaring a challenge will sacrifice a Sergeant to nullify a Necron Lord is totally worth it when you see their whole unit crushed under power armoured boots!

[march10k]

I definitely would NOT remove the company master. I mean, table-wide LD10? Helloooooo! I would probably field a master, five plas/plas tac squads, and a 4-las dev squad (combat-squaded against the orks, so they can kill two vehicles at a time) at 1500 points against either of these enemies. 61 marines, four lascannons, five plasma cannons, and five plasma guns is pretty mean at 1500. Deploy at max range and try to kill off the vehicles before the infantry get within effective rapid-fire range (that's 18", not 12"!), then switch targets. One turn of 40 boltguns, 5 plasma guns, and 5 boltpistols will make a serious dent in those two ork mobs, while the four lascannons will krump a few nobs with no trouble at all! Then you're almost certainly outnumbering the orks, and the day is yours!

 

Against the 'crons, spread out enough to keep the annihilation barge's shot from jumping, then ignore it. Focus everything on the doomsday ark till it goes down, that S9 AP1 pieplate is no joke! After that, just blast plasma death at one enemy unit at a time until it goes down and stays down. Easier said than done, I know, but after the ark is gone, you have a chance.

[HJL]

i agree with the devs, but not lascannons, they are too expensive for what they do, if he isnt running a load of battle wagons then you wont need the s9.

[Azrael Turnbull]

I definitely would NOT remove the company master. I mean, table-wide LD10? Helloooooo!

 

What use is LD10 now? If you fail your morale and are caught, nothing happens. If you fail your morale and escape, you're no longer in combat. Happy days! It will most likely be your turn next, as Orks normally break their opponent on the charge. Dakka dakka. Might as well spend 100 points on a str 6 power weapon with a charge bonus or psychic powers. The stat line is exactly the same as the Company Master except for wounds and LD (in the Librarian's case).

 

I would listen to March 10k on the Necrons, however. Sounds like he's played them a few times. Loading up on boltguns is never a bad thing, either. However, remember that the given list was only 1k Orks, not 1.5k. The Orks will still outnumber the Marines.

[Brother Nemiel]

I'm still new overall, but I would have kept a squad of scouts and used them against his HQs and a half squad of tacticals.

 

I had some deployment issues and my scouts kinda wounded up where they could not reach the enemy HQ. But I learn as I play more ;)

 

Replace Scouts with Dreadnought. Ork choppas loooooooove Dreadnoughts. 1 HQ in 1K is an unwritten law. Make it a Librarian or Chaplain; the Company Master has little to offer in close combat against horde opponents. Librarian will be good with divination or other spells that affect 'whole units'. The Chaplain is simply good a smashing things.

 

As for Necrons, I do not hold much experience when I battle them. I've played them about 4 times and haven't lost yet, so have no further advice to give other than one thing: Space Marines are 'Jack of all trades, master of none'. Basic Necron Warriors will outshoot Tac's, but close combat is a different matter. If you chase them down, it will also see to that pesky 'we'll be back' rule. Beware of Necron characters, though, they have some interesting anti'combat abilities. Declaring a challenge will sacrifice a Sergeant to nullify a Necron Lord is totally worth it when you see their whole unit crushed under power armoured boots!

 

I actually have a dread coming up. The reason I had 2 HQs was that that was the only way I could push it to 1K and only use painted models. This will be remedied in the near future. I wanted the Libby to experiment with the new powers...

 

It actually never hit me that I should take it up close with the necrons. I will have to try it out the next time. Thanks for the tip!

 

I definitely would NOT remove the company master. I mean, table-wide LD10? Helloooooo! I would probably field a master, five plas/plas tac squads, and a 4-las dev squad (combat-squaded against the orks, so they can kill two vehicles at a time) at 1500 points against either of these enemies. 61 marines, four lascannons, five plasma cannons, and five plasma guns is pretty mean at 1500. Deploy at max range and try to kill off the vehicles before the infantry get within effective rapid-fire range (that's 18", not 12"!), then switch targets. One turn of 40 boltguns, 5 plasma guns, and 5 boltpistols will make a serious dent in those two ork mobs, while the four lascannons will krump a few nobs with no trouble at all! Then you're almost certainly outnumbering the orks, and the day is yours!

 

Against the 'crons, spread out enough to keep the annihilation barge's shot from jumping, then ignore it. Focus everything on the doomsday ark till it goes down, that S9 AP1 pieplate is no joke! After that, just blast plasma death at one enemy unit at a time until it goes down and stays down. Easier said than done, I know, but after the ark is gone, you have a chance.

 

yeah I know the table-wide LD10 is good. I just had really good "luck" with the libby and that's why I was really interrested in keeping him first hand.

 

I can definetly see the appeal of the army list you've provided. As things go along I will eventueally be able to field it. I have to get back to you on that one :) I have a "little" to paint and build before I can get to that one.

 

Yeah, the barge was a real ******. It killed less than 6 marines total (thank the emperor for cover saves). My pred put an end to it in turn three though.

 

i agree with the devs, but not lascannons, they are too expensive for what they do, if he isnt running a load of battle wagons then you wont need the s9.

 

If I should run one list all day long it could be good to have some LCs. You never know what pops up. I can model them to have the option. First of all I'm gonna mmodel plasmacannon devs just to be fluffy.

 

I definitely would NOT remove the company master. I mean, table-wide LD10? Helloooooo!

 

What use is LD10 now? If you fail your morale and are caught, nothing happens. If you fail your morale and escape, you're no longer in combat. Happy days! It will most likely be your turn next, as Orks normally break their opponent on the charge. Dakka dakka. Might as well spend 100 points on a str 6 power weapon with a charge bonus or psychic powers. The stat line is exactly the same as the Company Master except for wounds and LD (in the Librarian's case).

 

I would listen to March 10k on the Necrons, however. Sounds like he's played them a few times. Loading up on boltguns is never a bad thing, either. However, remember that the given list was only 1k Orks, not 1.5k. The Orks will still outnumber the Marines.

 

I have to say it was really nice to have both of my tac squads fearless. It's hard choices regarding the HQs. I will have to try out different ones and settle for the one that suits me and doesn't suit my opponents.

[Eeps]

Orks are indeed pretty horrible to play against for elite armies, especially with the overwatch now - volume of fire rather than quality of fire will win the day.

 

Have you considered trying to get some cheeky landspeeder typhoons in there? Missiles are really excellent as you can use them on pretty much anything effectively apart from av 13+, and you get a free multimelta as well.

 

Maybe try replacing the master with a libby with the new rulebook powers? Psykers really are good for us now there are options outside of the codex.

 

As others have suggested, the las/las pred is a hell of a lot of points for 1k. You can prob also get away with only 2 troops at 1k, especially when they are pretty durable and combat squadable.

 

Just having a quick fiddle, I came up with the following:

 

HQ and Elite

1 Librarian in Power Armour + Melta Bombs + Combi-Flamer

5 Company Veterans + Melta Bombs x1 + Combi-Flamer x1 + Power Sword x1 + Flamer 5

1 Razorback

 

Troops 1

Tactical Squad + Plasma gun + Plasma Cannon

1 Sergeant

1 Rhino

 

Troops 2

Tactical Squad + Plasma gun + Plasma Cannon

1 Sergeant

 

Fast Attack 1

Ravenwing Support Squadron + Typhoon Missile Launcher

 

Fast Attack 2

Ravenwing Support Squadron + Typhoon Missile Launcher

 

Heavy Support 1

Predator + Twin-Linked Lascannon

 

 

You have lots of shots + some good high strength shots + some armour + some shiny flamers!

[Gillyfish]

There's some good advice here and speeders may well help you out, particularly against the Orks (at the very least being really annoying for your opponent if you keep them at range).

 

More marines may be a good thing too against Orks as you'll be able to bring more firepower to bear. The Whirlwind is a nice idea, as is a 2 or 4 strong set of missile launchers in a devastator squad which can deal with armour, tough targets or infantry pretty reasonably. Against Orks you want to be able to break up or stall their advance so that you can deal with it in bite size chunks, so concentrate fire and don't be afraid to retreat your combat squads.

 

Against Necrons you'll need the ability to put pressure on them in close combat. I haven't faced them much, but they are capable of out-shooting your marines. Transports will help, as might a 10 strong assault squad (although if you're doing that I would think about a jump pack chaplain to accompany them). That unit will either draw lots of fire, buying your other units some time or squish almost anything it gets into close combat with. They key thing to think about with Necrons is shielding your units from fire as best you can whilst advancing or concentrating fire on the other portions.

[Brother Nemiel]

Orks are indeed pretty horrible to play against for elite armies, especially with the overwatch now - volume of fire rather than quality of fire will win the day.

 

Have you considered trying to get some cheeky landspeeder typhoons in there? Missiles are really excellent as you can use them on pretty much anything effectively apart from av 13+, and you get a free multimelta as well.

 

Maybe try replacing the master with a libby with the new rulebook powers? Psykers really are good for us now there are options outside of the codex.

 

As others have suggested, the las/las pred is a hell of a lot of points for 1k. You can prob also get away with only 2 troops at 1k, especially when they are pretty durable and combat squadable.

 

Just having a quick fiddle, I came up with the following:

 

HQ and Elite

1 Librarian in Power Armour + Melta Bombs + Combi-Flamer

5 Company Veterans + Melta Bombs x1 + Combi-Flamer x1 + Power Sword x1 + Flamer 5

1 Razorback

 

Troops 1

Tactical Squad + Plasma gun + Plasma Cannon

1 Sergeant

1 Rhino

 

Troops 2

Tactical Squad + Plasma gun + Plasma Cannon

1 Sergeant

 

Fast Attack 1

Ravenwing Support Squadron + Typhoon Missile Launcher

 

Fast Attack 2

Ravenwing Support Squadron + Typhoon Missile Launcher

 

Heavy Support 1

Predator + Twin-Linked Lascannon

 

 

You have lots of shots + some good high strength shots + some armour + some shiny flamers!

 

Thanks for the list! I paint quite slowly so we'll see when I can get it all together. I plan to get some Speeders sooner or later. I hope <i can test your list in the not too distant future...

 

There's some good advice here and speeders may well help you out, particularly against the Orks (at the very least being really annoying for your opponent if you keep them at range).

 

More marines may be a good thing too against Orks as you'll be able to bring more firepower to bear. The Whirlwind is a nice idea, as is a 2 or 4 strong set of missile launchers in a devastator squad which can deal with armour, tough targets or infantry pretty reasonably. Against Orks you want to be able to break up or stall their advance so that you can deal with it in bite size chunks, so concentrate fire and don't be afraid to retreat your combat squads.

 

Against Necrons you'll need the ability to put pressure on them in close combat. I haven't faced them much, but they are capable of out-shooting your marines. Transports will help, as might a 10 strong assault squad (although if you're doing that I would think about a jump pack chaplain to accompany them). That unit will either draw lots of fire, buying your other units some time or squish almost anything it gets into close combat with. They key thing to think about with Necrons is shielding your units from fire as best you can whilst advancing or concentrating fire on the other portions.

 

Yeah I've received some very usefull info regarding both opponents. Hopefully my next games go atleast better. Also, in the near future I will have a bigger army which enables me to try different lists with different units. I actually have some assault marines waiting to be painted.

[march10k]

i agree with the devs, but not lascannons, they are too expensive for what they do, if he isnt running a load of battle wagons then you wont need the s9.

 

Couldn't agree less. When you need something punched right-the-hell-now, accept no substitute. The lower the number I need on the dice to get a penetrating hit, especially when I need to kill something on turn one, the better. And the +1 on the damage table isn't chopped liver, either! Yes, lascannon devastators are expensive...but they get the job done without fussing about how many hits you need to generate that "five-to-glance-six-to-pen." I often leave them at home because they cost so much, but when I do field them, they NEVER seem overcosted at game's end. If nothing else, 6th edition widens the gap between krak and las, without changing the points.

[march10k]

Have you considered trying to get some cheeky landspeeder typhoons in there? [...] and you get a free multimelta as well.

 

 

I never understood why people would take the MM over the HB. I wouldn't want my typhoons to be in boltgun range, for one thing, which would make the MM a rarely-exercised option...plus, I find that my typhoons, since they support a deathwing army, which doesn't have much of a tankbusting problem, but is a little short in the volume of anti-horde fire department, fire a lot more frags than kraks...and the HB augments that beautifully...from outside 24".