Your view on Assault Squads and a question about tactics

[nusphigor]

Hi all

Latelly I've been struggling with myself because I started playing with CSM a loooooooong time ago and basically just used the standard CSM squads for rapid firing and counter assault units. Since I used them on rhinos and they also had bolters I saw no use for Raptors.

 

But now I want to make a Space Marine Army and I've tried plying with Blood Angels and Space Marines and I see that the tactical squads reallly need that extra help in assaults.

You may say that why not use Assault squads on rhinos with the blood angels? the thing is that I really like to use bolters and I got sick of the bloody angels.

Then why not play with Space Wolves? (having in mind that I'm just starting the army and still trying to decide what army I'll be playing) well, I just don't like the wolves or the codex, even if they are that good.

 

But enough background to the topic, my questions to all of you, Power armoured Brothers, are:

 

What do you think of the Assault squads? is it worth spending the points just to protect the tactical squads as a counter-assault unit against anything that threatens them? (say like the regiments of the Empire army in fantasy, if you know what I'm talking about)

 

The idea of my army is to rush (on rhinos or by foot and shooting bolters or plasma, because I love plasma weapons) to grab midfield and use the rest of the units to support the tactical squads.

 

Is it a good tactic to use as the fundation of an army? what kind of army would you suggest for this kind of play style?, both for fluff and effectiveness on the battlefield (loooove is a battlefield) as I still have to choose the chapter that I'm going to use (so many preety mehreeens and stories :blink: )

 

Still, I'm ok with any of the Vainilla SM chapters, DA or BT, so maybe that can help.

 

 

 

Thanks for your help!

[rpnightsend]

The idea of my army is to rush (on rhinos or by foot and shooting bolters or plasma, because I love plasma weapons) to grab midfield and use the rest of the units to support the tactical squads.

Any Space Marine army could do this effectively, although Blood Angels and Regular Codex Space marines would be best at this probably.

Plasma supported by Assault Squads is an excellent plan. I would take 2-3 Tactical Squad supported by 1-2 Assault Squad. Give the assault squads flamers and use them as anti-horde, while the plasma-happy tacticals remove TEQ's and Monstrous Creatures. All you need them is some anti-tank, probably in the form of a squad of devastators or two (if you're going for lots of boots on the field) or a predator or two (if you're a treadhead like me).

Cheers!

[nusphigor]

Thanks Brother!

I just made an army list based on your suggestions (using the Vainilla Codex) and it seems really basic but strong if it's played correctly.

 

What do you think of it, brothers?

 

Basically is a captain with relic blade, combi melta, hellfire ammo and artificer armour,

a 8 man sternguard vet squad with the sergeant with a combi flamer,

3 tactical squads with storm bolter, power axe, plasmagun and plasma cannon,

2 10 man assault squads with power sword and 2 flamers,

and 2 devastator squads with 4 missile launchers.

 

Thats 1750 pts and 69 miniatures on the table (yes, I like playing with many troops on the table :D)

 

The whole idea is to march for the midfield taking advantage of the cover with the tacs and the sternguards meanwhile the devastators rain missiles upon the enemy tanks and the assault squads go for the flanks trying to play as baits. Since the whole thing seems really obvious the idea is to keep everything in bolter range and try to get clear line of view of all of my troops that way every squad can offer support to each other, but trying to not put all my units all across the board.

 

Imagine dividing your deployment zone on 5 parts like this:

 

4 2 1 3 5

 

Being 4 the nearest to the left edge of the board, 5 the nearest to the right edge of the board, 1 the whole center and 2-3 the zones in between.

 

The idea is to deploy in zones 2 or 3 trying to get as much range on the enemy units as I can, that way its always easy to protect one of my flanks but not making the thing that obvious from a mere glance.

Of course, on objective missions maybe it will be better to try to put all of the objectives on the table based on my opponents army (assault army= his deploy zone near the midfield, defensive army = my deploy zone) that way I can play against the oponent weakness.

 

 

I know it's a pretty basic tactic, something you may use really easy or disrupt really easy when you play against it but I'm really bad for that kind of stuff :P (but give me a brush and some paint and I can do wonders XD)

 

I dont know if is appropiate to make a separate thread for this list on the army list section since the whole thread is to see if this tactic can work and how to use the assault marines in this kind of army, but if it is better to do so please tell me and I'll move this to the appropiate are of the fourm.

 

Thanks again!

[Creeger]

Hey nusphegor,

 

At a glance, I'd be concerned about two things with your proposed list. First would be anything armor 13 or higher. I often run a devastator squad with four launchers, and I just can't bring myself to fire them at anything higher that 12 armor if there's anything else in line of sight. I find it too heart breaking to watch the missiles bounce off. Personally I'd feel more comfortable with a few lascannons about to crack the hard targets. Necron skimmers come to mind, I just played a game against them yesterday and my twin-linked las dreadnought and predator served me well. Both survived the game and they reduced my opponents skimmers to slag, in short order!

 

Also, you mentioned deploying at maximum range. I'm often tempted to do that too. But be mindful of the table edge, brother. I've watched nearly full squads run off the table due to poor dice rolling on leadership checks.

 

The thought of having nearly a full company of marines stomping up the field in a 1750 game is an inspiring thought, though. Do Keep at it.

[rpnightsend]

First would be anything armor 13 or higher. I often run a devastator squad with four launchers, and I just can't bring myself to fire them at anything higher that 12 armor if there's anything else in line of sight.

+1

 

Here are my suggestions:

1. I'm guessing that means you have no rhinos (Good choice, theyd get wrecked quickly with so few vehicles on the field)? If yes, good. If you are taking some, make sure you have 1 for every tactical squad and the sternguard. That gives you enough armor saturation.

2. Drop the power axes on the tactical squads. They look nice, but with the storm bolter you're losing the extra attack and you'll need those points elsewhere.

3. Give 2 Devastators in each squad lascannons (as mentioned above). That gives you flexibility with the missile launchers and firepower with the lascannons. Are those 5 or 10 man dev squads? if theyre only 5 man make it 3 weapons per team, not 4, or you'll be giving up an important model every shot.

4. Give the sternguard 2 or 3 combi meltas to handle big things like land raiders that get up close. Also, if you can stick a power fist and/or stormshield on the sergeant. He'll threaten TEQ's where the Captain can't, and with the shield he'll be survivable enough in CC to go a round or two in a challenge (hopefully). Also a heavy flamer for them is a good idea. Gives them a way to threaten hordes and its a great overwatch weapon.

5. If you need a few points or if you really wanna keep those power axes, drop the storm bolters on the tactical squads. They wont be as useful as you think due to the rest of the squad having heavy weapons.

 

Its a good list, just needs some weapon loadout tweaking.

[DarkGuard]

Assault Marines got better with Hammer of Wrath grabbing them more hits, and more infantry being on foot. They're not a bad cleaner unit, but don't run them against big combat units.

 

As for the list, drop the storm bolters on the Tactical squads. You can move and fire one shot anyway with the boltgun. The storm bolters costs 10pts, and lets you fire another shot. Not worth it. I'd prefer a combi weapon or power sword there.

 

The Sternguard really need combis, meltas and/or plasmas would be best.

 

The Assault squads will need power axes/power fists/thunder hammers on the Sergeants, so they can handle a larger variety of targets through higher strength while having AP2.

 

Also, as others said, you need some melta. You also need some anti-flyer, either through a Stormtalon or aegis line. Attack bikes will provide the fast melta. I'd drop an Assault squad to fit them in.

[rpnightsend]

You also need some anti-flyer, either through a Stormtalon or aegis line. Attack bikes will provide the fast melta.

That actually depends on who he's playing with. Some groups (like mine) auto-give flakk missiles to missile launchers. Even more groups allow the signum upgrade to BS to make the shots, even against flyers, BS5. He should be fine if who he plays with allows either, or both of those.

I'd drop an Assault squad to fit them in.

Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of him making a list that utilizes assault marines? I know attack bikes are good but you don't NEED them in every list. It bothers me that people think that they're necessary in pretty much anything but deep-strike lists. I think he's fine without them if he gives the sternguard some melta and the dev's lascannons.

[nusphigor]

Thanks for all your suggestions!

 

Well I remade the army list following your suggestions and ended up with something like this:

 

Captain with Relic Blade, Combi-Melta, Hellfire Rounds and Artificer armour

8-man Sternguard squad with 1 combi melta, 2 combi meltas and 2 Heavy Flamers

3 10-man Tactical Squads with Stormbolter, Meltabombs, plasmagun and Plasma cannon

2 10-man Assaul Squads with Power Axe and 2 Flamers

2 5-man Devastator Squads with 3 Missile Launcher

 

The changes are:

- Gave 2 more combi meltas and 2 heavy flamers to the sternguards (I really like the idea of the heavy flamers, thanks! :P )

- Changed the combi flamer of the sternguard sergeant to a combi melta

- Took out the power Axes from the tactical stergeants (still on the miniatures but none of the guys on the club ever have any problem with that as long as the miniature looks cool and I don't use the weapon stats, even in tournaments :( )

- Gave the tactical sergeants some meltabombs

- Changed the power sword of the Assault sergeants to power axes

- Took out 1 Missile launcher from the Devastator squads

 

I still have 30 pts left for a 1750 pts army, but I don't know what to put with those, maybe change 1 missile in each squad making each devastator squad with 2 missiles and 1 lascannon?

 

The main idea is to have no tanks since I figured out that I really like the infantry armies but I cant stand using other thing than marines or Imperial Guard.

The problem with the IG its that I still have to get a clearer idea on how to make those Catachan or Cadian models better because every time I look at them I think that everything is missing something... well, that and the fact that since I want an infantry army composed by platoons it will need a ton of models and I don't have the time or the money to worry myself with that XD

 

I also thought about using Attack Bikes for support and I plan to get myself 4 to use them as tank hunters, but for now I want to try and make an effective use for those assault squads since I already have the models (but I have to confess that I'm really tempted to take out the Jump packs and give them bolters >.>)

 

I agree with the missile comment Brother creeger said, those AV13-14 are the bane of my armies really, thats why I want to get the Attack bikes XD

 

I like the Idea of the Aegis line since a couple of guys play with storm ravens and vendettas but I have no idea how much does it cost in points because a friend of mine has my rulebook :/, but the stormtalon idea, well I like the fishy but want to keep this army vehicle free at least for now. But I will get some of those when my armoured half comes alive again, thats a threat XD

 

Overall, do you think is a nice army and has a good tactic?

What chapter comes to your mind when you read this? (another of the problems with this army is that I just don't know how to paint them, really!)

 

Thanks again!

[Schultzhoffen]

Unfortunately Assault Marines (in a C:SM list) are mediocre at best. BA do them better but I'd not bother with them in a vanilla army.

 

Unless (maybe) you face Tau/Guard/IG on a regular basis.

 

Marines have a couple of excellent CC units (TH/SS Terminators, Honour Guard) but the army list needs to be built around them -i.e. they need transport (Landraiders for a start) to give them mobility and protection.

 

Tac Squads don't need CC special weapons -they are NOT a CC unit. Save the points for elsewhere.

 

I look at your army list and think: what scares me? The answer is: nothing.

 

You have ok units with zero transport capacity. Do you plan to use your assault squads to charge in? Not sure that will really work (although it depends on your opponent). All you should do with your list is lose reasonably regularly - at least to vets with specialised lists at a club. Your list is fine for friendly play against mates.

 

Sternguards need CWeapons and transport.

 

Rhinos are (still/always) awesome.

 

Vindicators are wonderful.

 

Attack Bikes with MM are wonderful.

[rpnightsend]

Captain with Relic Blade, Combi-Melta, Hellfire Rounds and Artificer armour

8-man Sternguard squad with 1 combi melta, 2 combi meltas and 2 Heavy Flamers

3 10-man Tactical Squads with Stormbolter, Meltabombs, plasmagun and Plasma cannon

2 10-man Assaul Squads with Power Axe and 2 Flamers

2 5-man Devastator Squads with 3 Missile Launcher

 

The changes are:

- Gave 2 more combi meltas and 2 heavy flamers to the sternguards (I really like the idea of the heavy flamers, thanks! :P )

- Changed the combi flamer of the sternguard sergeant to a combi melta

- Took out the power Axes from the tactical stergeants (still on the miniatures but none of the guys on the club ever have any problem with that as long as the miniature looks cool and I don't use the weapon stats, even in tournaments :( )

- Gave the tactical sergeants some meltabombs

- Changed the power sword of the Assault sergeants to power axes

- Took out 1 Missile launcher from the Devastator squads

 

I still have 30 pts left for a 1750 pts army, but I don't know what to put with those, maybe change 1 missile in each squad making each devastator squad with 2 missiles and 1 lascannon?

It looks good. Definitely take the lascannons, they are serious extra punch against tank that you're going to need. I would recommend dropping the storm bolters and melta bombs on the tactical sergeants for those power axes - you have them modeled anyways and they're good for deterring assaults. If you can, fit a power fist into the sternguard squad. It would really give you some extra punch. Since the captain has a combi-melta you can drop one of your sternguard's combi-meltas if you need points.

 

Marines have a couple of excellent CC units (TH/SS Terminators, Honour Guard) but the army list needs to be built around them -i.e. they need transport (Landraiders for a start) to give them mobility and protection.

 

Tac Squads don't need CC special weapons -they are NOT a CC unit. Save the points for elsewhere.

 

Sternguards need CWeapons and transport.

 

Rhinos are (still/always) awesome.

 

Vindicators are wonderful.

 

Attack Bikes with MM are wonderful.

So his list is bad because it doesn't look enough like yours? His list is not bad at all. It has a lot of staying power (69 boots on the field is excellent for a marine army, even at 2000 points it would be). Taking Vindicators, Rhinos, and terminators would drastically change the style of his list for no reason other than because it doesn't include the units that metagamers like.

[Schultzhoffen]

@rpnightsend

 

His list isn't bad, merely not good. He is limiting his options. Personally my list looks nothing like most vanilla lists but I look for the following: mobility, anti tank and some limited CC (in a support role - I use Tac Terminators and an Ironclad). He has little of either the first two and fragile assault squads that die like regular marines and lack punch.

 

He may win with that list but he is making his life more difficult than need be. Like I said, it depends on his regular opponents but against all comers he'll probably struggle.

 

I've seen lists like his. I've seen them lose consistently.

 

Unless of course, he's a tactical genius and loves the challenge. In which case, more power to him.

 

He asked for advice, I gave it. He can take it or leave it. No skin off my nose. I do have 10 years of playing marines as experience so I've seen what they can/can not do.

 

Your comment was unhelpful -perhaps you should confine your replies to the question and not my post?

[DarkGuard]

rpnightsend, I do agree with Schultzhoffen's appraisal of the list. However, Schultzhoffen, when someone posts a topic asking how to fit Assault squads in, it's best to try and fit at least one in, otherwise you're not being very helpful. Identifying their strong and weak points are fine, but telling the OP he'd better run something else isn't.

 

And let me explain my post. It was about list balance. Melta in footslogging Sternguard won't reliably make it to the tank you want to kill. That's why attack bikes, drop dreads, land speeders etc are solid choices in balanced lists. I suggested to drop an Assault squad so that nusphigor would still have that solid fire base of 8 missiles. The Sternguard also aren't bad in assault and add balance there. However, I suppose that so long as the Aegis line is taken as well, nusphigor could drop a Dev squad and get a good result as well.

 

Overall I like the idea of the list. I used to run a half company list, and always enjoyed running it. Apart from the point restrictions that meant that I couldn't take much else.

[rpnightsend]

@Dark Guard and Schultzhoffen

Sorry I get a little worked up when I see "moar attack bikes and Mehtal Bawkses" being suggested. It feels like everyone online believes those are necessary in every list if it is going to be played.

 

Attack bikes with multi-meltas wouldn't be a bad idea, but they'd be a no-brainer target for his opponent. One thing I like about his current-setup is that every unit is a threat, but none are so powerful that they're a no-brainer target. I think people underestimate the importance of that (its the same reason we have the adage "if you take one, take two").

 

@Schultzhoffen

Assault Marines I think are underestimated in the counter-assault role. They're also pretty fast and give a good amount of redeployable anti-horde.

[DarkGuard]

Don't worry about it. I don't like half the competitive metagame solutions, notice I didn't tell nusphigor to take any Rhinos or anything, the only vehicle I suggested was the Stormtalon, maybe a Land Speeder. He's given his reasons why he doesn't want them and I accept that.

 

With the attack bikes, maybe two units then? Instead of Devs. Now personally I don't like spamming units, so in my list I have a couple of melta units in Rhinos in addition to my attack bikes, so there's the redundancy. You're right though, they would be singled out though. So a couple of squads would be needed.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Assaults Squads are seriously undervalued but much of that is based on the fact that they're not as good as they should be.

 

Based upon my personal strategy, the Gunline, Assault Squads are indeed an almost perfect counter-assault unit; a cheap, somewhat expendable if need be, unit that you can afford to take a couple of - bear in mind that last point is based my preference for 5-man Squads.

 

The thing to remember, particularly when in reference to a Gunline is that sometimes it doesn't matter what you get in CC as a counter-punch, as long as you do get something engaged. Assault Squads have the mobility to react in the way that another unit might not.

 

Don't forget either that whilst they may not seem tough compared to TH/SS Terminators, they're still tough compared to a lot of armies regular Troops.

[Marine Errant]

Hiya,

 

Like the list. I always run at least one basic ten man assault squad with flamers, along with two five man 4-missile dev squads and they usually work very well for me. (been playing since RT in 1987 so I have had a LOT of practice with these guys!!!!)

One suggestion I would make - replace your captain with a jump pack chaplain. Don't know how attached you are to your captain but the chaplain will give you way more bang for your money and synergises extremely well with your assault marines, improving them substantially. I always have a chappie leading my assault marines and he very rarely lets me down :D

Just my tuppence worth ;)

[Warprat]

I run an all foot 4 Tactical, 1 Terminator squad (full 10 men each). HQ is a Librarian w/Null Zone. Mobility is always an issue for me, along with having enough heavy weapons.

 

Your Half Company approach gives you some advantages in things my army lacks, so I find it interesting... of course my army is around 1500pts, going up to 1750, I could add in another unit or two.

 

 

All foot armies, at least mine LOL, play differently than more mobile armies. I find myself deploying second when possible, to capitalize on my opponents deployment. Your assault squads should help you out quite a bit, should you set up first.

 

And... assaulting a gun line can be a real challenge. There are times I would have gladly given a body part for an assault squad or two.

 

 

 

My advice for your list. Drop the storm bolters and make them combi-plasma. I would also re-think the heavy flamers on the Sternguard, because your paying good points for the super bolters, only to pay more points to replace them with a short range weapon (as good as it is.) I would upgrade to combi-flamers if you want flame capibility.

 

The chappy is good, my preference is for a Null Zone/Avenger Librarian, but that's me...

[Muctar]

I really have to echo Marine Errant's though about the chaplain. Adding one to the assault squad will give them a huge boost in performance, especially in the counter-assault role you assign them as they should be getting the charge if you're applying them correctly.

 

What chapter comes to your mind when you read this? (another of the problems with this army is that I just don't know how to paint them, really!)

The list is pretty straightforward and blunt with each unit having its own role, so I'd say something like the Minotaurs.

[rpnightsend]

What chapter comes to your mind when you read this? (another of the problems with this army is that I just don't know how to paint them, really!)

The list is pretty straightforward and blunt with each unit having its own role, so I'd say something like the Minotaurs.

Minotaurs are a great choice, or Raven Guard. They don't use a lot of vehicles and make heavy use of assault marines (although they are more focused on stealth.)

[nusphigor]

Thanks for all your suggestions guys!

Sorry for replying so late, life issues :P

 

I may have a game this saturday so I'll make a small battle report if you want to know what happened :P

 

I dont know about the chap, because is really cool and makes the assault guys hit like a truck but I just can't like that miniature and I don't know why :/

Anyways I'll give him a try the next game and see what happens :cuss

[Henricus Divis]

Have you considered adding a jump pack librarian?

 

The extra mobility coupled with the Avenger and Vortex of Doom psychic powers affords you both anti tank and anti infantry capabilities, not to mention the force weapon can insta-kill monstrous creatures and such.

 

I currently run a similar force to yours and have found this combined with an assault squad to be highly effective.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Have you considered adding a jump pack librarian?

 

The extra mobility coupled with the Avenger and Vortex of Doom psychic powers affords you both anti tank and anti infantry capabilities, not to mention the force weapon can insta-kill monstrous creatures and such.

 

I currently run a similar force to yours and have found this combined with an assault squad to be highly effective.

 

 

Vortex of Doom is a horrible idea on a jump pack Libby, by the way. He'll be constantly moving, but VoD is a "Heavy" shooting power -- thus, can't fire if you move, and can't assault afterwards even if you do. If you're going to stick a Libby with an assault squad, give him assault powers -- Might of the Ancients for tackling MCs and vehicles, and Initiative-boosting one for going before almost everyone else (just make sure he doesn't have an axe, or the speedy power gets you nothing but Fleet).

[Henricus Divis]

True Vortex of Doom is hard to use due to its Heavy weapon status but if your enemy is foolish enough to not move his vehicles once your Libby is in position it becomes highly effective.

[nusphigor]

mm I don't know

It seems very risking leaving the librarian there for a turn just to use that power to a tank. Theres a ton of missile launchers for that.

He could get shot to death if I use it alone and if I use it in an assault squad it seems like a waste since they cant assault afterwards.

 

Maybe is better to use biomancy powers on that guy, that way it can enhace the squad or weaken the enemy, dont you agree?

[DarkGuard]

Biomancy powers would probably be the best choice. Your Libby will be in combat so Warp Speed and Iron Arm wouldn't be bad, and Enfeeble and Endurance can really turn a combat in your favour, especially Enfeeble. The Fear power in Telepathy wouldn't be bad though.