The Long Wait...

[Hellios]

If people don't want chaosy Space marines and want their chaos marines to look more normal... I heard GW has a range of marines that look normal... If only I could remember what they are.

 

So I think these models are good... and they are Chosen.... They should at least be at the level of awesome of squad leaders.

[Sception]

Of course opinions vary, but I myself like to see some chaos in my chaos marines - I'll take weird mutations and baroque ornamentation over loyalists with spiky bits any day, and these new chosen that look more like fantasy chaos warriors than typical loyalist marines are right up my alley.

 

I hope when we eventually see chosen as their own box - with more options and pose-ability, that they still look this awesome.

[incinerator950]

One thing GW has been pushing in the last dex is the Legions no longer exist in any recognizable sense. They are now led by warlords who follow their own agendas and beliefs. After millennia in the warp, none are the puritans they once were. Not the Night Lords, not the Iron Warriors, not the Alpha Legion. Like I said, you can have your Warband of Iron Warriors who hate mutation, but you'll be a niche market, because the Legion isn't the focus of the codex. Its the mutated, warped daemon worshipers, the broken down Warbands mixed of a variety of backgrounds, lead by the strongest, who will be almost invariably favored by the gods because he is the strongest. This is what makes them bland and each follow the same poorly designed metagame besides Black Legion, which resulted in several poorly designed cheese lists for tournament play, and several players shelving Chaos Space Marines altogether.

 

No longer any distinction between Legionnaires or Renegades, mindlessly absolving everyone to a Warband with little appreciation or balance besides "Might makes Right." Well, besides paint, but with all that counts as, I might as well play Grey Knights or Space Furries instead.

 

Also want to make note of an earlier quote I'm too lazy to put down, each surviving Primarch willingly gave themselves to one of the four Divine Patrons, or aligned themselves to Undivided. Purturabo explicitly sacrificed large stores of captured Geneseed (mostly Imperial Fists and his own Iron Warriors), Fulgrim became possessed by the machinations of Slaanesh with a Demon Weapon, Angron became fully embellished with Khorne, Mortrarion gave himself (along with his Legion) to Papa Nurgle to save themselves from the Destroyer Plague, and Magnus had sided (or been aligned to a degree if you bother reading BL) to Tzeentch, while Lorgar...well, I'm not privy to what he's done besides a long list of unknown atrocities, but he has been willingly devoted to Chaos Undivided.

 

Wake me up when GW gets better at aligning their own course material besides Mac Walters quality hack jobs.

[incinerator950]

If people don't want chaosy Space marines and want their chaos marines to look more normal... I heard GW has a range of marines that look normal... If only I could remember what they are.

 

So I think these models are good... and they are Chosen.... They should at least be at the level of awesome of squad leaders.

 

The problem is the distinction between a normal Chaos/Renegade and one so mutated. Not every marine is going to be looking like these Chosen Sculpts. Hell, the description for Night Lords for a long time has been mostly pure Geneseed and relatively few mutations. Where as Iron Warriors are nearly the same, with odd machinations for their Demonic mutations/Possessions/Ascensions mutating with technology.

 

So, its a difference between narrow opinions. It would be better to retain the broader ranges while keeping these new sculpts. I myself am privy to a more cleaner, armed and dangerous look as opposed to a myriad of extra spikes or obsessive mutations. However, that distinction between Legion/Renegade veterans and Chaos Space Marine was completely killed in Gav's codex. I'm almost worried it will be similar with the new one. Why bother playing a distinctive list when its not distinct, or forces you to go back to Loyalist rules and just use counts as again?

 

Likewise, the manner of mutation is different for every aspect of Chaos. Simply making it one dimensional isn't great, but that's what Greenstuff has been for.

[Kizzdougs]

Personally I love the new minis. I collect IWs and i think the new sculpts will add some much needed character to my army.

 

 

Warning personal opinion! May be completely out of touch with other people's.

On the Chosen; when I think of Chosen I think of "Abaddon's Chosen" in the previous CSM codex. Each of them is a warlord in his own right. Chosen aren't Stern Guard or Van Guard they're veterans from the time of the heresy (as far as the legions are concerned), many of them would have be veteran sergeants or captains in the Great Crusade. I think they can be excused for showing a little ornamentation/corruption. If I had my way they'd be the equivalent of Paladins.

[Pariah Mk.231]

I for one am glad that Chaos seems to be turning back towards a more "Slaves to Darkness" feel and less of the renegade marine theme, though it does make me wish I hadn't chosen to remove all the mutations I had added when I shifted from DIY to Iron Warriors (with their tendancy to simply remove the mutation and replace it with biotics). With the new look of the Chosen, I think I might put some mutations back in there and simply blend my Morbid Progeny fluff with my Iron Warriors and go with a sort of fringe element of the legion, actively seeking out and recruiting cultist and mutant rebels from Imperial worlds because they believe that mutants are the true children of the gods. I was a huge fan of the Lost and the Damned list and have always prefered a "From Hell" theme for Chaos.

 

Gah, I'm actually tempted to go back to my Morbid Progeny scheme right now but can't really be bothered stripping my models and repainting them AGAIN, plus I sort of got over them when the Red Corsairs got a unified colour scheme since they're now so similar to what I had. But still, that temptation is ever present, especially if more of the new models follow the example of these Chosen and the Hellbrute.

[incinerator950]

You could just re-add the mutations and combine them with synthetic overlays as Dermal tissue, or add synthetic implants to create a symbiotic attachment with the Demonic mutation.

[Vesper]

"Before I get a warning, I should re-read the following part from the rules" :

 

Rules and Fluff from GW sources: GW is fairly strict about keeping their rules and fluff protected. In the past we have even gotten requests to remove things from GW in regards to Fluff and Rules. This means scans, quotes and other 'full postings' of rules and fluff aren't allowed. You can quote them in small portions when it is appropriate for the discussion but entire pages of fluff/rules will be removed.

[Trevak Dal]

These are the gods who put down the Emperor, my friends. The galaxy is ripe for corruption. Every soul has a blemish for Chaos to breathe through. Every human in the Imperium suffers under or controls the mindless government, and worships a being who would destroy them for it, if only he could. The xenos are all fodder and wars to amuse the Dark Gods. Only the true servants of Chaos will live longer than a few hundred years, and only they would want to, for they are holy and blessed with matchless strength, sorcerory of untold power and the backings of the most powerful beings to have ever existed. Those who deny both the corpse-Emperor and the true rulers of the galaxy only buy themselves time. For what can they hope for? Survival? Survival for what? Do they somehow hope that they will think they will outlast the Imperium? Do they think they will escape the reach of Chaos? No, they will not. There is only an eternity of war among the stars and the laughter of thirsting gods. Only Chaos provides a life worth living. Only the Dark Gods provide the truth.

 

So flee if you will, deluded brothers. Perhaps you'll escape being sacrificed for a little while. Or perhaps it won't take very long at all. Either way, your souls are ours, and it's only a matter of time before we claim them. Until that day, I hope you enjoy watching yourselves be killed, one, by one, by one, by one, by one...

 

 

 

 

B)

 

That's pretty much how my Nightblades are. I don't really like any one legion or warband, there's elements I like in most of them. My guys can be most easily summed up as Chaos Angry Marines, who take greater pleasure in stealthily infiltrating a place-and then A-Team/Expendables style blowing everything to ^_^: and gone. They don't rightly care about the Primarchs, the heresy or the long war. They don't expect to survive any engagement-all of them were Cadian children taken, made to fight eachother and the survivors turned into Astartes.

 

They hate the Imperium and the Emperor for not saving them, and acknowledge the gods' power, but they fight for the moment, as if every day is their last.

 

On the topic of the models in question: I have little use for Cultists, and there's nary a horn on my Chaos Space Marines-and many are made more rank and file than typical chaos warbands because I initially was thinking of Goatboy-ing my army: using a single pool of models and multiple army books, though I've found a much easier means of doing that by simply only having 1000 point armies and nothing more, I got 2 and a "ally" army out of what I had in chaos, sharing Rhinos between them.

[Iron Sage]

Now before I continue, I'd just like to say that I of course respect everyone's different opinions and they have their right to their own warband background, and, of course, that every warband is different and will be affect by chaos differently, or may not reside in the Eye/any other Chaos haven. I've just seen alot of these anti Chaos posts and rarely does someone say, "Whoa whoa whoa. You did actually read the title before you bought the codex, right?"

 

I agree, you're average Joe Chaos Space Marine is not going to be warped and mutated because, as some of you said, these mutations are gifts, but the first thing I'd like to point out is the models we are referring to are Chosen. As in, Chosen of the Gods. They're not Disciples of the Gods, nor are they merely Veterans as Codex: Space Marines has. These guys have been favoured by the Gods whether or not they like it, because they are good at what they do and the gods like this, and want to make sure they keep doing it. This is why they "gift" them with their fancy mutations.

 

In the BL books many of the Chaos Marines are nobodies. In the WB trilogy there is only one "Chosen" squad mentioned, and I'm fairly sure they have some minor mutations, and I know their leader does. The possessed obviously do, but the Terminators aren't referenced as having any mutations, I'll admit. Though even Marduk notices that his armour is steadily mutating to become a part of his skin. A D-B will be the first to admit that his Night Lords aren't unstoppable champions of war. They're nobodies to whom the last 10,000 was a century in the warp, possibly with their Gellar Fields still activated. The gods aren't going to care or notice these guys, and they haven't spent enough time exposed to the warp to develop any mutations. None the less, Uzas and Cyrion still suffer from their own - albeit subtle - mutations, and whether Talos' visions are a chaotic gift or something other is I think intentionally left murky.

 

If you smoke enough cigarettes you will get cancer, whether or not you believe in the cigarette. This is the way it is. If you play in the realm of the gods, you will change. Every traitor Primarch who isn't dead is a Daemon Primarch. If they can be warped by the touch of the Daemon, what chance does your chaos marine stand? These are the guys who went to Hell, and Hell spat them back out. Literally. They will be changed by this.

 

In regards to the Warriors of Chaos thing, I'm surprised by that. Thats like saying "I want to play Norse but without the whole Thor and Odin pantheon thing." Thats their culture, thats what makes them what they are. Without that they're just bearded pirates.

 

 

None of this is meant to be a slander on your lovingly crafted backgrounds by the way. Its just been a long time since I've found a Chaos debate I can really sink my teeth into :P

 

I have no wish to touch upon your entire post, especially as I myself still unfortunatly smoke ;)

 

However, when you claim that Chosen are not veterans but Chosen of the Gods, you seem to be mixing up fantasy and 40 K fluff (I think you have been doing that as I said, in your former post as well). In 40K Chosen can indeed be veterans from the heresy, and in the fluff are typically portayed as Chosen of a certain WARLORD (note warlord, NOT Gods). Thats my issue with your posts really. You seem to cherry pick some fluff, and ignore other just as important parts, and then mix it all up with fantasy which is a bit problematic.

Of course, this does not mean that Chosen cannot be chosen by the Gods as well (obviously they can be), but this is not what "Normal" Chosen USED to be portayed as. The kind of Chosen that YOU talk about, is what we normally call Possessed actually :woot:

 

But hey, your army is your army, and you choose your own fluff (thank the Gods for that!), but you should not criticise those of us that wants to play Legion Astartes and happen to use forces where massive physical mutations are some what (in some cases very) un-fluffy.

Then again, we are discussing game, fluff, not life or death, so its not as its a "crisis" whatever one says. But again, dont criticse others for their legitimate views on how their fluffy forces should look like, when you dont yourself have fully command of the game background :)

 

Me myself I have severe limitations. I am a noob general due to having too few people to play with. I am a mediocre painter, and a far worse converter, but game background I do know pretty well, having followed 40k since the early 90s and been a game master in various warhammer games since (role playing). Then again, as C3PO would say. "R2D2 has been known to be wrong...from time to time", i.e. I dont claim to know everything in the warhammer fluff (Tau for instance has always come across as totally uninteresting for me, so I have not really bothered to learn that much about them as an example)., and I am sure there are many on this forum that knows a lot more about space marines in general than me.

[Caffeineated Chaos]

Personally I love the new minis. I collect IWs and i think the new sculpts will add some much needed character to my army.

 

 

Warning personal opinion! May be completely out of touch with other people's.

On the Chosen; when I think of Chosen I think of "Abaddon's Chosen" in the previous CSM codex. Each of them is a warlord in his own right. Chosen aren't Stern Guard or Van Guard they're veterans from the time of the heresy (as far as the legions are concerned), many of them would have be veteran sergeants or captains in the Great Crusade. I think they can be excused for showing a little ornamentation/corruption. If I had my way they'd be the equivalent of Paladins.

HEAR HEAR!!! personally I love the mutations, but feel with painting, and possibly minimalist greenstuffing and hobbyknifing they can just look ostentatious rather than mutant. This month's white dwarf had a very nice looking chaos starter with alpha legion colors and with no actual modding, just paint, they looked very decorative rather than mutant

[Excessus]

This month's white dwarf had a very nice looking chaos starter with alpha legion colors and with no actual modding, just paint, they looked very decorative rather than mutant

There were also some Night lord and Black legion models where the "mutations" more looked like ornaments apart from the alpha legion.

[Lay]

All in all, the Chaos miniatures in the starter set look a lot more "vanilla" than the loyalist ones. Personally, I prefer them that way.

 

In 40K Chosen can indeed be veterans from the heresy, and in the fluff are typically portayed as Chosen of a certain WARLORD (note warlord, NOT Gods).

Actually, ever since CSM Veterans were renamed Chosen in the 3.5 Codex, they have been described as being "chosen" by the gods. The ones who are favoured by the Chaos Lord tend to be the Terminators.

[Lexington]

Also want to make note of an earlier quote I'm too lazy to put down, each surviving Primarch willingly gave themselves to one of the four Divine Patrons, or aligned themselves to Undivided. [...] Wake me up when GW gets better at aligning their own course material besides Mac Walters quality hack jobs.

Mmm, s'bit more complicated than that, I'd say.

 

The traitor Primarchs all gave themselves to Chaos in one way or another, true, but that's always been the root of their followers' disorganized, lost (and damned!) way of life. An important aspect of almost every Primarch is that they're "off the table," so to speak, and don't directly interact with their Legions anymore. They ascended, sure, but their children didn't all follow, and the Legions of old are now damned to walk this mortal plane, abandoned by the gene-fathers who molded them, and betrayed by the Imperium that forged them. Without a Primarch to look to, lieutenants like Khârn and Typhus shattered their respective Legions, while others simply struck out on their own to wage war and grow their own power base. This is actually the way the Chaos Legions were originally written, back when they were fleshed out in 2nd Edition - it was the IA articles and 3.5 Codex that screwed up that premise, and made the Legions seem like united, organized forces so that players could take them to exclusion on the tabletop. The "Gav Dex" was just righting the direction, back to something more dedicated to the motivations of individual Chaos Lords.

 

This is also why Abbadon's so damned important - while everyone else is screwing around, consumed by infighting and petty raiding, it's Horus' favored son who has been forging the Traitor Legions into something coherent and threatening to the Imperium. He takes the "Long War" concept seriously, and in the new, pre-13th Crusade setting of the background, is about to wreck hell on an Imperium which has almost forgotten him. I don't exactly have high hopes for the background of the new book (the Studio being under strict orders to write piss-poor fantasy maguffin trash anymore, it seems), I really do hope this is something that they play up.

[Iron Sage]

All in all, the Chaos miniatures in the starter set look a lot more "vanilla" than the loyalist ones. Personally, I prefer them that way.

 

In 40K Chosen can indeed be veterans from the heresy, and in the fluff are typically portayed as Chosen of a certain WARLORD (note warlord, NOT Gods).

Actually, ever since CSM Veterans were renamed Chosen in the 3.5 Codex, they have been described as being "chosen" by the gods. The ones who are favoured by the Chaos Lord tend to be the Terminators.

 

Thank you. Quite embarrasing however. I actually had to scratch my head when I read, and then scratch it some more when I cheacked it out myself via a few quick google searches.

I dont know why I was so certain regarding the Chosen, but them being the "elite veteran unit" of the warlord, elevated above the rest of the rank and file, just like the former 1st company terminator elites, is something that has stuck in my mind for very many years indeed. So I find it some what peculiar that I was wrong on that account.

Oh, well. Not exactly a personal crisis this, but it was/is embarrasing if this is really the case

[incinerator950]

Lets just hope they take into account all variations.

 

Also, thank you for the better clarification between the Lord's personal favored, and the Chosen of the Dark ones. Now I can stop badgering people with a chipmunk.

[incinerator950]

Also want to make note of an earlier quote I'm too lazy to put down, each surviving Primarch willingly gave themselves to one of the four Divine Patrons, or aligned themselves to Undivided. [...] Wake me up when GW gets better at aligning their own course material besides Mac Walters quality hack jobs.

Mmm, s'bit more complicated than that, I'd say.

 

The traitor Primarchs all gave themselves to Chaos in one way or another, true, but that's always been the root of their followers' disorganized, lost (and damned!) way of life. An important aspect of almost every Primarch is that they're "off the table," so to speak, and don't directly interact with their Legions anymore. They ascended, sure, but their children didn't all follow, and the Legions of old are now damned to walk this mortal plane, abandoned by the gene-fathers who molded them, and betrayed by the Imperium that forged them. Without a Primarch to look to, lieutenants like Khârn and Typhus shattered their respective Legions, while others simply struck out on their own to wage war and grow their own power base. This is actually the way the Chaos Legions were originally written, back when they were fleshed out in 2nd Edition - it was the IA articles and 3.5 Codex that screwed up that premise, and made the Legions seem like united, organized forces so that players could take them to exclusion on the tabletop. The "Gav Dex" was just righting the direction, back to something more dedicated to the motivations of individual Chaos Lords.

 

This is also why Abbadon's so damned important - while everyone else is screwing around, consumed by infighting and petty raiding, it's Horus' favored son who has been forging the Traitor Legions into something coherent and threatening to the Imperium. He takes the "Long War" concept seriously, and in the new, pre-13th Crusade setting of the background, is about to wreck hell on an Imperium which has almost forgotten him. I don't exactly have high hopes for the background of the new book (the Studio being under strict orders to write piss-poor fantasy maguffin trash anymore, it seems), I really do hope this is something that they play up.

 

I still don't like it, they should be finding a good mellow structure between the two. The Chaos Primarchs don't do very much, but when they do, for instance Angron, they move mountains. By definition of the current state, Magnus and Mortarion still command the loyalty (or in the case of the former) control a large portion of the Legion. Despite Plague Fleets, Typhus, and other Warlords or Tzeentchian Outcasts/Sorcerers seeking power elsewhere. They didn't completely destabilize their Legions more as much as their Primarchs, but the Legion forces still bear their names and not completely scattered.

 

The Word Bearers and Iron Warriors seem the most organized next to the Black Legion's Reorganization under Abbadon. Despite Abbadon's ability to blunder situations to advance small goals which are rarely capitalized besides pissing off other Legions, he's doing a marvelous job of scaring the hell out of the Empire. Likewise, the BL novels are providing some insight that their is some form of Legion Command Structure. It is more based out of Lords, but the Principle that they retain their Allegiances to the Respective Commands of those after their Primarchs is still present. Most of the time.

 

I just wish the writers with Chaos were coherently focused in maintaining background and rules to govern more aspects of our forces. As much as the Flesh out 2nd Edition came with, you had more heart with the Legions despite the fact it never insisted they were completely operating at that level. Even so much as showing you examples of Non-aligned traitor Marines, and Cult Marines not in service to the Legions.

 

Then 4.0 Blunders that, making it Codex Black Legion Vanilla for Pink Panther Lash Princes. Killing much originality between 2 or 3.5 and streamlining us to a position of feral roaming bands.

 

My problem is that we're streamlining into another Blunder. We may get better rules, and we can model our generic Marines to be even more Devout or more to be Mercenaries/Pirates living Under No Gods, No Masters. But at the end of the day, we could be Space Marines with Mutations. A far cry to the 2nd edition without capitalizing on any gains that have been made between 3-3.5, and 4.0 (there was..maybe one or two). Its just going to be a codex favoring new models to buy, rather than all aspects of our character, models, background. Maybe more about the Wallet, but ****.

[Lord Morgrim]

Its all the plans of Tzeentch.....chaos in its purest essence....the warp can transmute even time and soemthing that we think happened 10000 years ago might now not have happened at all.......there is no empire just chaos.......