Gree Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 Alright, as warned in the thread title spoilers. At the end of Fear to Tread, Sanguinius's fleet is taken off course and they arrive in Ultramar, instead of Terra. Guilliman is there and is evidently expecting them: "The flickering hologram broke apart into a wash of shimmering static, changing and reforming. It became a powerful figure, a new face, a strong and stern visage of aquiline proportions. A towering warrior whose presence – even diminished by distance and the attenuation of the projection – was still a match for that of the Angel. ‘Roboute…?’ Kano heard the surprise in his primarch’s voice. ‘Brother.’ The master of the XIII Legion smiled, gratitude in his gaze. ‘Well met, Sanguinius. I welcome you to Ultramar and the Five Hundred Worlds.’ He nodded to himself, as if acknowledging a truth now revealed. ‘It is good that you are here. Now we can begin.’' Well of course the Blood Angels are present at Terra, but if they are present at Ultramar near the start of the Heresy, then why are the Ultramarines not at Terra? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259615-guilliman-sanguinius-and-the-heresy/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 It's really a question with little merit to discuss. We are repeatedly told there are plenty of stories to come that will throw what we know about the whole Heresy upside down. Basically, we need to treat the Heresy as if we don't know what is going to happen, as if we don't know the Blood Angels make it to Terra. If you don't, well you won't get any answers anyway, so all you have is speculation and presumption to fill the gaps. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259615-guilliman-sanguinius-and-the-heresy/#findComment-3158356 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 This is going to be a long thread :P I don't think anyone can say for sure without the release of further fluff on the subject by Black Library. Anything anyone says would surely just be conjecture? But anyway, maybe because of the state of the Ultramarines fleet? Though you'd think that Sanguinius could have taken RG and a couple of chapters to Terra on his fleet, let them camp in an empty hanger or something. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259615-guilliman-sanguinius-and-the-heresy/#findComment-3158357 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 I'll not let it become a long thread, because there is so little information to discuss it is bound to go off topic and then get this topic closed. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259615-guilliman-sanguinius-and-the-heresy/#findComment-3158361 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julius Firefocht Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 If anything, the Blood Angel's presence in Ultramar may mean that they see action against the Word Bearers and World Eaters. Who's going to complain at Blood Angels vs World Eaters action? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259615-guilliman-sanguinius-and-the-heresy/#findComment-3158366 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 If anything, the Blood Angel's presence in Ultramar may mean that they see action against the Word Bearers and World Eaters. Who's going to complain at Blood Angels vs World Eaters action? I forgot about that! The events of Betrayer may shed light on why the Ultras didn't get to Terra, but until it is released then we can only guess, but still something to think about I suppose. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259615-guilliman-sanguinius-and-the-heresy/#findComment-3158378 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonata Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 I think that there will be a lot of room to explain what happened between that point in which Sanguinius and Guilliman join together in Ultramar, and the Siege of Terra. From what I've heard, there was about 7-10 years of fighting in the build up, so anything could happen. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259615-guilliman-sanguinius-and-the-heresy/#findComment-3158431 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calgar 2.0 Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 What if the Ultras have men present at Terra now? :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259615-guilliman-sanguinius-and-the-heresy/#findComment-3158519 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 What if the Ultras have men present at Terra now? -_- I think a lot of keyboards would be broken ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259615-guilliman-sanguinius-and-the-heresy/#findComment-3158755 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 I assume further books will explain why the Ultras did not reach Terra but the BA did. And darn it, I need to stop clicking on Fear to tread threads. I haven't gotten my copy yet! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259615-guilliman-sanguinius-and-the-heresy/#findComment-3158758 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Angel Scout Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 I assume further books will explain why the Ultras did not reach Terra but the BA did. And darn it, I need to stop clicking on Fear to tread threads. I haven't gotten my copy yet! From the way I've read things so far, it may have to do with Guilliman's plan to re-group the loyalists and get them working as one force instead of individual legions, again all my own interpretation but will try to explin my theory as best as possible without sources to hand. Going on his opinions of the dauntless few, Guiliman creates three forces (no Manus plus Dorn's on Terra) with himself, Sang and Russ in the lead roles to then all meet up with Dorn on Terra but due to events we've yet to see, it is only the BA and WS who make it there in time to defend the palace long enough for the rest to arrive as reinforcements, prompting the lowering of the shields, face off then 10,000 years of grimdarkness Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259615-guilliman-sanguinius-and-the-heresy/#findComment-3159004 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rik Lightstar Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 Didn't the Word Bearers cripple the Ultramarine fleet??? No (not enough) ships = no getting to Terra, it doesn't matter if your buddies stop by for a natter. Rik Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259615-guilliman-sanguinius-and-the-heresy/#findComment-3159045 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 No (not enough) ships = no getting to Terra, it doesn't matter if your buddies stop by for a natter. Ha ha! You only say that because your mind cannot grasp the true power of Roboute Guilliman's logistical skills! Four Venn diagrams and three pie charts later both Legions will somehow arrive at Terra just in the nick of time. Because of logistics. Logistical logisticals done in a logisticified manner that are ten times more logistical than any logistics non Primarchs could conceive. LOOOOOOOGGGGIIIIIIISSSSSTTTIIIICCSSSS! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259615-guilliman-sanguinius-and-the-heresy/#findComment-3159553 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 Yeah, I finished this the other day and was very perplexed. It will be interesting to see how this is explained. I can only assume the both set out together but somehow the Ultras are set off course, or that was not really Guilliman and the Ultras. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259615-guilliman-sanguinius-and-the-heresy/#findComment-3159555 Share on other sites More sharing options...
karden00 Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 No (not enough) ships = no getting to Terra, it doesn't matter if your buddies stop by for a natter. Ha ha! You only say that because your mind cannot grasp the true power of Roboute Guilliman's logistical skills! Four Venn diagrams and three pie charts later both Legions will somehow arrive at Terra just in the nick of time. Because of logistics. Logistical logisticals done in a logisticified manner that are ten times more logistical than any logistics non Primarchs could conceive. LOOOOOOOGGGGIIIIIIISSSSSTTTIIIICCSSSS! DARN TOOTIN'!!! Logistics will from now on follow any post I ever make. Logistics! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259615-guilliman-sanguinius-and-the-heresy/#findComment-3159556 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 DARN TOOTIN'!!!Logistics will from now on follow any post I ever make. Logistics! It's like Warp sorcery. Only with a much lower chance of angry deity using your soul as a throw rug. Logistics. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259615-guilliman-sanguinius-and-the-heresy/#findComment-3159640 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Israfel Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 Here is my take of this, it is pure speculation ofcourse :( It has been hinted before (it was a short story I think) that Guilliman did not want to make a last stand in Terra. IMHO he will try to convince Sanguinius that it's logistically more sound to let Terra fall and the Emperor with it for the good of the Imperium. Sanguinius ever the loyal son will still rush back to Terra to aid his father and die a true hero... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259615-guilliman-sanguinius-and-the-heresy/#findComment-3159901 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel of Solitude Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 Here is my take of this, it is pure speculation ofcourse :( It has been hinted before (it was a short story I think) that Guilliman did not want to make a last stand in Terra. IMHO he will try to convince Sanguinius that it's logistically more sound to let Terra fall and the Emperor with it for the good of the Imperium. Sanguinius ever the loyal son will still rush back to Terra to aid his father and die a true hero... Also, as per Fear to Tread Sanguinius has promised that he will have a final showdown with Horus. I can't recall exactly if he has also seen his death at the hands of Horus in one of his visions but it would certainly give him a reason to want to travel to Terra, despite Guilliman's protestations otherwise. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259615-guilliman-sanguinius-and-the-heresy/#findComment-3159926 Share on other sites More sharing options...
karden00 Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 Heresy. I cannot stand idly by and let all this trash be heaped upon Guillman's good name. He was a noble son, who did his job well, thanks to his grasp on logistics. Logistically, it would have made very little sense indeed for him to want to stay in Ultramar, even if the Bloodies were with him. His legion was bloodied (as would have been that of Sangy at this point, if I understand correctly) and he probably still has some World Eaters and Word Bearers to clean up (not that the latter is a very tasking task, what with their general impotency and, of course, Guilliman's excellent grasp of logistics) before he can think of going about the slow return to the Segmentum Solar. Think about it. Guilliman and Ultramar (even if it is 500 worls at this point, its gotten a good bloody nose) teams up with Sangy, the Imperail Army, Navy and whatever else he can get his logistically inclined mittens on, and makes his way inexorably towards Terra. Not a feasable plan, for someone so logisically astute. Consider the forces arrayed against him. 9 traitor legions, much of the Mechanicum, tonnes of IA and IN, plus innumerable daemonic peskies. Whereas at Terra already, you have the Bloodies, the Scarries and the Fisters (the strongest loyal force in the Imperium at this point, if were talking about Legiones Astertes. I cant think of any 3 loyal legions operating together anywhere else after Istvaan?) Plus the Custodies, loyal IA, IN and Mechanicum (which ought to be considerable, given the proximity to Mars), not to mention the Big E himself, perhaps the best and biggest trump card in the loyalist hand. Pretty much every branch of the Imperium is still operational in the area of Terra, and probably in the most numerically significant way compared to anywhere else in the galaxy. Logistically, it makes far more sense to get your butt to Terra, and put the weight of the XIIIth and the Bloodies, along with all the auxiliary you can muster, which, given a bit of time between Calth and the SoT, ought to be considerable (even if not as considerable as it had been), securely in the line of battle. In conclusion, I reject the notion that Guilliman purposefully withheld his support from the SoT. He was incorruptable in his spirit, unshakable in loyalty, and logistically superior to anyone else that tried to dabble in logistics. Given the option of staying behind, and logistically seperating himself from the fight (even if it prevents his being depleted by said fight) is a poor option given the alternative strength of the rest of ones allies. Isolation can be beneficial, but not when ones posture concedes the greatest force of allies to battle, and relegates himself to an afterthought. Guilliman would have seen the logistical benefit of being at the heart of the Imperium for this greatest of all battles, and known that his own logistics would not have been sufficient if he were isolated from the rest of the imperium, what with the forces arrayed against him. He absolutely wanted to be at the SoT, and I am confident that the forthcoming books will display as much. It was the logistically sound move to make. -Logistics Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259615-guilliman-sanguinius-and-the-heresy/#findComment-3160313 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 ...and he probably still has some World Eaters and Word Bearers to clean up (not that the latter is a very tasking task, what with their general impotency and, of course, Guilliman's excellent grasp of logistics) before he can think of going about the slow return to the Segmentum Solar. I wish him luck. http://aarondembskibowden.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/betrayer_final_lo_0031.jpg Yeah. Looks real easy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259615-guilliman-sanguinius-and-the-heresy/#findComment-3160382 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Heresy Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 That seems to be going well.... Awesome pic. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259615-guilliman-sanguinius-and-the-heresy/#findComment-3160407 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted August 28, 2012 Author Share Posted August 28, 2012 That seems to be going well.... Awesome pic. Well we already saw the Ultramarines barely managing to survive at Calth with Guilliman getting his butt kicked by Kor Phaeron of all people. Now we evidently will have Lorgar and Angron rampage through Ultramar. Given that today Ultramar consists of eight worlds and in the Heresy it consists of 500 worlds, I say Lorgar and Angron suceed in their mission. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259615-guilliman-sanguinius-and-the-heresy/#findComment-3160413 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavement Artist Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 That seems to be going well.... Awesome pic. Well we already saw the Ultramarines barely managing to survive at Calth with Guilliman getting his butt kicked by Kor Phaeron of all people. Now we evidently will have Lorgar and Angron rampage through Ultramar. Given that today Ultramar consists of eight worlds and in the Heresy it consists of 500 worlds, I say Lorgar and Angron suceed in their mission. "Barely managing to survive" an absolute left field sneak attack from a trusted ally and actually coming out the victor is nothing to be sniffed at. Hell, those two walking through anywhere will leave a mess. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259615-guilliman-sanguinius-and-the-heresy/#findComment-3160435 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted August 28, 2012 Author Share Posted August 28, 2012 "Barely managing to survive" an absolute left field sneak attack from a trusted ally and actually coming out the victor is nothing to be sniffed at. Hell, those two walking through anywhere will leave a mess. ''Coming out the victor'' is certainly debatable, especially as Erebus revealed at the end additional objectives that the Word Bearers were actually pursuing. It's also a change from the resounding victory the Ultramarines had prior. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259615-guilliman-sanguinius-and-the-heresy/#findComment-3160440 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavement Artist Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 He can say that all he wants. Fact is, the Word Bearers still got a kicking. Those "Secondary Objectives" came across as him trying to salvage something positive from the events. Was it ever a resounding victory? The problem is, this is the first time the battle has been shown in any depth. IA articles and the like tend to work with broad strokes, perhaps giving the impression of a cleaner victory. I prefer it this way, The UM battered and bloody, claw their way back against the odds. If they'd just turned around and won with minimal losses, it would've cheapened the whole story. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259615-guilliman-sanguinius-and-the-heresy/#findComment-3160449 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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