Guilliman, Sanguinius and the Heresy

[Gree]

He can say that all he wants. Fact is, the Word Bearers still got a kicking. Those "Secondary Objectives" came across as him trying to salvage something positive from the events.

 

How is it a fact if the Word Bearers accomplished what they want? They are not secondary objectives, they are what the Word Bearers did come for int he first place. And they suceeded.

 

EDIT: Look here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...t=0&start=0

 

Was it ever a resounding victory?

 

Yes, The IA and Collected Visions have already explained that.

 

I prefer it this way, The UM battered and bloody, claw their way back against the odds.

 

I'm not suprised that a non-Ultramarine fan would not be sad at them being beaten up alot.

 

If they'd just turned around and won with minimal losses, it would've cheapened the whole story.

 

And where was that present in any version fo the story?

[Pavement Artist]

I prefer it this way, The UM battered and bloody, claw their way back against the odds.

 

I'm not suprised that a non-Ultramarine fan would not be sad at them being beaten up alot.

 

If they'd just turned around and won with minimal losses, it would've cheapened the whole story.

 

And where was that present in any version fo the story?

 

What, the fact i said that i preferred them coming back against the odds? I think you need to re read the post mate.

 

I like the fact they won. I also prefer that it wasn't a clean victory. Don't insult us both by assuming we're all against the Ultramarines. Hell, i'm one of the people who are in favour of Alpharius actually going down at Eskrador.

[Sublime Heresy]

That seems to be going well....

 

Awesome pic.

 

Well we already saw the Ultramarines barely managing to survive at Calth with Guilliman getting his butt kicked by Kor Phaeron of all people. Now we evidently will have Lorgar and Angron rampage through Ultramar. Given that today Ultramar consists of eight worlds and in the Heresy it consists of 500 worlds, I say Lorgar and Angron suceed in their mission.

 

 

I'm not an Ultra fan, but you are reaching for that conclusion.

 

It could easily be 8 worlds because of the Codex reforms.

 

Holding 500 wordls with 200,000+ marines? Easy

Holding them with 1000? Not so much....

[Gree]

What, the fact i said that i preferred them coming back against the odds? I think you need to re read the post mate.

 

I did, the thing is in prior versions it was not completely so one-sided in favor fo the Word Bearers. In prior versions it was no easy fight certainly but the Ultramarines won.

 

Now in KNF it's explained that the Word Bearers achieved their real objectives with ''destroying the Ultramarines'' just being a side goal.

 

That seems to be going well....

 

Awesome pic.

 

Well we already saw the Ultramarines barely managing to survive at Calth with Guilliman getting his butt kicked by Kor Phaeron of all people. Now we evidently will have Lorgar and Angron rampage through Ultramar. Given that today Ultramar consists of eight worlds and in the Heresy it consists of 500 worlds, I say Lorgar and Angron suceed in their mission.

 

 

I'm not an Ultra fan, but you are reaching for that conclusion.

 

It could easily be 8 worlds because of the Codex reforms.

 

Holding 500 wordls with 200,000+ marines? Easy

Holding them with 1000? Not so much....

 

I admit to guesswork, but I'm not exactly thrilled with the Ultramarines's performance so far in the Heresy.

[Pavement Artist]

BL seem to be continuing on from KNF with this Calth novella, so that might help to make it feel like a more definitive win for the Ultras

[A D-B]

I imagine that Erebus's version of events may not entirely match Lorgar's expectations.

 

I also imagine that when Erebus makes it back to Lorgar and claims that things went just swimmingly, Lorgar may take a different view of Erebus and Kor Phaeron's "success".

 

Like when Admiral Ozzel brings the Empire fleet out of lightspeed too close to the Hoth system, and is totally proud of the chance for a surprise attack. He thinks he's done great. Poor lad.

 

"Lord Vader. The fleet has moved out of lightspeed and we're preparing to ugh... ack... argh..."

 

"You have failed me for the last time, Admiral."

 

THUMP.

[Gree]

I imagine that Erebus's version of events may not entirely match Lorgar's expectations.

 

I also imagine that when Erebus makes it back to Lorgar and claims that things went just swimmingly, Lorgar may take a different view of Erebus and Kor Phaeron's "success".

 

Like when Admiral Ozzel brings the Empire fleet out of lightspeed too close to the Hoth system, and is totally proud of the chance for a surprise attack. He thinks he's done great. Poor lad.

 

"Lord Vader. The fleet has moved out of lightspeed and we're preparing to ugh... ack... argh..."

 

"You have failed me for the last time, Admiral."

 

THUMP.

 

That is...good to hear. Thank you. I'll reserve final judgement until I read the future installments in the story.

[Pavement Artist]

Just once, can you do a Star Trek analogy so i understand it :D

[A D-B]

Just once, can you do a Star Trek analogy so i understand it :D

 

Um.

 

I would if I could.

 

That is...good to hear. Thank you. I'll reserve final judgement until I read the future installments in the story.

 

I'm trying very hard not to give spoilers for a book that's not even out for half a year.

 

While the World Eaters and Word Bearers get some significant victories (it's a novel about their crusade, after all) Lorgar reeeeeeeally doesn't view Calth in the same positive light as Erebus. No, no, no.

 

Far from it.

 

In fact, the exact opposite.

[Pavement Artist]

I'll let you off. My Star wars knowledge runs to the episode 1 racer game on the n64.

 

Seems to be a trend continued in Fear to Tread where there's a bit of a communication breakdown occurring in the traitor ranks.

[Gree]

I'm trying very hard not to give spoilers for a book that's not even out for half a year.

 

While the World Eaters and Word Bearers get some significant victories (it's a novel about their crusade, after all) Lorgar reeeeeeeally doesn't view Calth in the same positive light as Erebus. No, no, no.

 

Far from it.

 

In fact, the exact opposite.

 

Oh, I don't mean to pressure sir. You don't need to tell me anything. I'm can certainly wait until the actual book is released. I'm fine with waiting until then.

[karden00]

Logistics

[Sublime Heresy]

I think the UMs have accounted for themselves pretty well tbh.

 

They were 100% unprepared, not on a war footing, split between ground and space...and still managed to hold out against a MASSIVE assault. Ok, so far they haven't crushed the enemy, but in that situation survival itself is a hell of an achievement. You can't start to win unless you get into a position first where you don't lose....

[Gree]

I think the UMs have accounted for themselves pretty well tbh.

 

They were 100% unprepared, not on a war footing, split between ground and space...and still managed to hold out against a MASSIVE assault. Ok, so far they haven't crushed the enemy, but in that situation survival itself is a hell of an achievement. You can't start to win unless you get into a position first where you don't lose....

 

Have you read Collected Visions? Just asking, because it contains a rather different account of the battle.

[Sublime Heresy]

I have, but i'm not sure what relevance that has in all honesty. The older account rarely supersedes the more current one, especially when it is so much lighter on detail.

 

Not only that, but I don't see any cnflict, bearing in mind the events in "Know no Fear" are only the opening moves. From Collected Visions:

 

"At first the savagery and decisiveness of the Word Bearer assault threatened to to overrun the defenders in a few hours". Check.

"Having scattered the Loyalists and pinned them in place...the Ultramarines had no choice but to dig in and fortify". Check.

"As each Ultramarine position was breached, the Word Bearers themselves followed up with vicious assualts, killing every loyalist they found". Check.

 

"As the hours passed the defenders began to slow the Word Bearer assault". Check.

 

And so on. Collected Visions makes it extremely clear that the Ultras were nearly destroyed initially, then fought back. Exactly like the novel.

 

So I cant see it as a particularly different account in all honesty.

[Gree]

I have, but i'm not sure what relevance that has in all honesty. The older account rarely supersedes the more current one, especially when it is so much lighter on detail.

 

Not only that, but I don't see any cnflict, bearing in mind the events in "Know no Fear" are only the opening moves. From Collected Visions:

 

"At first the savagery and decisiveness of the Word Bearer assault threatened to to overrun the defenders in a few hours". Check.

"Having scattered the Loyalists and pinned them in place...the Ultramarines had no choice but to dig in and fortify". Check.

"As each Ultramarine position was breached, the Word Bearers themselves followed up with vicious assualts, killing every loyalist they found". Check.

 

"As the hours passed the defenders began to slow the Word Bearer assault". Check.

 

And so on. Collected Visions makes it extremely clear that the Ultras were nearly destroyed initially, then fought back. Exactly like the novel.

 

So I cant see it as a particularly different account in all honesty.

 

In Collected Visions Guilliman masterminds a grand-scale counterattack on the ground while he led the fleet in a series of hit and run attacks in space. They then push the Word Bearers off Calth. It was a masterful piece of strategy n the face of overwhelming odds.

 

In KNF, Guilliman is out for most of the battle and only issues a single order and leads a single boarding action. The Ultramarines only come together at the very last moment, and even then it’s noted that the Word Bearers would have won if the defense grid had not intervened. In fact you could say the battle was won by the Mechanicus, not the Ultramarines. The Word Bearers were defeated by the press of a button, not though a coordinated grandscale counterattack by pure Astartes effort.

 

Legatus quotes the differences more effectivel than I could have:

 

Guilliman's Actions in the Battle for Calth (Collected Visions, p. 164):

Guilliman began to organise a series of hit and run counterattacks with the few ships able to operate. (...) Time and time again the Word Bearers battleships were isolated and destroyed. (...) Even so, the loyalists faced a foe that outnumbered and outgunned them. (...)

Even as he directed his crippled fleet, Guilliman was also sending orders planetside to his beleagured troops on the ground. (...) Each and every pocket of resistance had been assessed with lightning speed and a plan formulated to increase the success of a defence against the traitors. Clear, concise orders were being broadcast to the defenders and the Ultramarines began to fight back.

Guilliman's only action (aside from instructing Captain Ventanus to attack a ground installation) in the Battle for Calth (Know no Fear, p. 368):

The first kill squad of fifty Ultramarines, led by Guilliman, Heutonicus and Thiel, assembles in the flaggship's teleportation terminal.

Leading continuous fleet actions while also directing a global ground campaign.

 

vs

 

Instructing one ground force to attack a target and leading a 50 man boarding action.

[Ubermensch Commander]

I have, but i'm not sure what relevance that has in all honesty. The older account rarely supersedes the more current one, especially when it is so much lighter on detail.

 

Not only that, but I don't see any cnflict, bearing in mind the events in "Know no Fear" are only the opening moves. From Collected Visions:

 

"At first the savagery and decisiveness of the Word Bearer assault threatened to to overrun the defenders in a few hours". Check.

"Having scattered the Loyalists and pinned them in place...the Ultramarines had no choice but to dig in and fortify". Check.

"As each Ultramarine position was breached, the Word Bearers themselves followed up with vicious assualts, killing every loyalist they found". Check.

 

"As the hours passed the defenders began to slow the Word Bearer assault". Check.

 

And so on. Collected Visions makes it extremely clear that the Ultras were nearly destroyed initially, then fought back. Exactly like the novel.

 

So I cant see it as a particularly different account in all honesty.

 

There are some substantial differences on how the Ultramarines fight back and win out between the two versions, which I believe Gree and Legatus have expounded on in previous threads.

I will say however, one of these did not involve a Mechanicum cannon-web-thing of LUDICROUS(Wonderful) proportions.

On topic, waiting to read Fear to Tread.

[Sublime Heresy]

I have, but i'm not sure what relevance that has in all honesty. The older account rarely supersedes the more current one, especially when it is so much lighter on detail.

 

Not only that, but I don't see any cnflict, bearing in mind the events in "Know no Fear" are only the opening moves. From Collected Visions:

 

"At first the savagery and decisiveness of the Word Bearer assault threatened to to overrun the defenders in a few hours". Check.

"Having scattered the Loyalists and pinned them in place...the Ultramarines had no choice but to dig in and fortify". Check.

"As each Ultramarine position was breached, the Word Bearers themselves followed up with vicious assualts, killing every loyalist they found". Check.

 

"As the hours passed the defenders began to slow the Word Bearer assault". Check.

 

And so on. Collected Visions makes it extremely clear that the Ultras were nearly destroyed initially, then fought back. Exactly like the novel.

 

So I cant see it as a particularly different account in all honesty.

 

There are some substantial differences on how the Ultramarines fight back and win out between the two versions, which I believe Gree and Legatus have expounded on in previous threads.

I will say however, one of these did not involve a Mechanicum cannon-web-thing of LUDICROUS(Wonderful) proportions.

On topic, waiting to read Fear to Tread.

 

 

Oh yes, there are big difference in methods, but I don't see the overall result or story as much different. Different views I guess.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

If you can survive having baneblades quite literaly rain on your parade, you can survive anything.

 

I really enjoyed KNF and I loved how the Ultramarines got their collective rear ends handed to them only to turn around and come back fighting. It showed how they adapt and overcome whatever the situation.

[karden00]

This debate creeps up whenever Ultra's or KNF are talked about. I really never saw what was so great about Collected Visions. I find it rather shallow to expect that in all the major actions of the HH, its Astartes who are front and center, Always. Besides, Collected Versions might have been a neat little fluff tomb, but it was hardly epic writing that deserves to always be the absolute standard to which all BL novels have to be measured. Just think of what the Mechanicus is by its very nature. It has the monopoly on technology, and these guys arent supposed to be major players in the game? I think its been said before, but it actually does more service to the Ultramarines as a legion, if not Guilliman as a primarch, to see that they didnt need him to coordinate them. Im OK with Guilliman not coming off as well as the legion did in that book, because if the BL authors made previously inconsequential Primarchs like Lorgar and Alpharius more potent in their own right, I am Sure Guilliman will get a better showing at some point. So what if it didnt happen in the first book. This is the Horus Heresy, and no matter what gets retconned or completely rewritten, our bold Ultramarines and our Grandpa Smurf Wont Ever Have a part as big as Sanguinius or Horus or Magnus, so we might never get to hear about all the glorius deeds of Guilliman. We know he rebuilt the Imperium, and that is enough for me. Anything else is just a bonus at this point you guys.

Lets get back on track.

I think its pretty cool to hear that Guilliman and Sanguinius are even talking at all, and I have a feeling were going to be in for a story that goes more along the lines of: Both want to make it back to Terra, but one makes it and the other doesnt. I think what we have so far points heavily in that direction more so than it does in the Guilliman doesnt care about daddy direction.

Lets leave the battle of Calth out of this, its been beaten to death, undeath and death again and its sad that everything involving Guilliman or the Ultramarines has to come back to it. Lets move forward with what we have seen in this snippet of FtT and talk about where it might be going and why.

The logistics of beating the Calth stick around in perpituity are truly frightening.

 

Logistics

[Legatus]

There are some substantial differences on how the Ultramarines fight back and win out between the two versions, which I believe Gree and Legatus have expounded on in previous threads.

The described battle is indeed different, but that does not really affect the turnout so much as it does the achievement of the Ultramarines. The Collected Visions book had described a more drawn out global battle, where the efforts of the forces on the ground were eventually coordinated all while Guilliman led several space raids. In 'Know No Fear' the coordinated actions of the Ultramarines are significantly reduced, and instead of a drawn out global effort we only really get two coordinated attacks, after which the Battle of Calth is essentially concluded. The latter is less of an achievement because it was a much smaller effort. However, that does not explain why the victory of the Ultramarines was diminished.

 

The reason for why their victory was deminished is that in the previous sources the Word Bearers did not have some long term strategic goals, they came to Calth to wipe out the Ultramarines Legion, period. But in 'Know No Fear' they have other goals. More important goals, as the final pages of the novel have us believe. At least Erebus is satisfied with the outcome, since he was able to complete his ritual, and the Ultramarines were crippled for the forseeable future, even though he admits that he would have preferred to have caused more damage to them.

 

That the battle was reduced in scope only means that the Ultramarines didn't get to do that much. But that the Word Bearers got important new objectives which they achieved means that the Ultramarines really were unable to stop them.

 

 

I imagine that Erebus's version of events may not entirely match Lorgar's expectations.

 

I also imagine that when Erebus makes it back to Lorgar and claims that things went just swimmingly, Lorgar may take a different view of Erebus and Kor Phaeron's "success".

Then maybe next time he sends the majority of his Legion to attack another Legion's homeworld, he should be leading them. :lol:

[Lord Ragnarok]

This has veered way off topic and is in danger of nose planting off the mountain side.

 

Please steer it back on topic.

[Grimtooth]

To the original topic, I predict the following;

 

Guilliman convinces Sanguinous that it must be the Ultras that attempt to preserve the Emperor's vision by NOT rushing to defend Terra. Sanguinous accepts this proposition, not because he actually agrees with Guilliman, but because through his gift of foresight he already knows his destiny will be to face Horus and sacrifice his life to help the Emperor ultimately defeat him.

 

Community wise, Ultra players will rejoice feeling that Guilliman's choice to not help out during the SoT is justified by Sanguinous agreeing with him. BA players will think that despite Sanguinous' foresight, had Guilliman joined helped, their primarch would have lived. The rest of the community will still consider Guilliman a defeatist for preparing for his father's failure instead of rushing to Terra.

[Lord Ragnarok]

OK, This is still not on topic. Before the melta is deployed I'll give it one more chance.

 

Well of course the Blood Angels are present at Terra, but if they are present at Ultramar near the start of the Heresy, then why are the Ultramarines not at Terra?

Every post should be addressing this or moving the ball forward in answer this question.

 

As I've already made an in thread warning to get on topic, I will remove every post which is not on topic after I made my request.

[Legatus]

Guilliman convinces Sanguinous that it must be the Ultras that attempt to preserve the Emperor's vision by NOT rushing to defend Terra.

Thing is, there is nothing going on on Terra for another five years. Rushing to Terra would not accomplish anything. There are five more years of galactic civil war coming before Horus will besiege Terra. But maybe Guilliman's plan is to hold everything back until the traitors arrive at Terra, I dunno.