Shadows of Treachery

[Aegnor]

There are some really great authors really getting into their Black Library careers at the moment. ADB was sort of in the first wave of this great influx of really good authors. John French, Chris Wraight, Rob Sanders et al have all produced some ripping work in the last year or two. Its fantastic for us, because Dan Abnett, Graham Mcneil and ADB can't write ALL the books. Great to see.

[Inquisitor Engel]

I thoroughly enjoyed the subject matter of "The Crimson Fist" and I liked the flawed representation of Sigismund rather than his boring one up till now. The fact that it's not a retcon and jibes with the outward PERCEPTION of him being a flawless hero is a nice bit of story-telling skill.

 

I wasn't a huge fan of the first-person used in the parts about Pollux, but I'm generally not a first-person kind of guy. I did enjoy the story behind it though. French is a good author and I look forward to more from him.

 

Additionally, I got to read about Sevatar riding a space jet like a surfboard, so that was totally awesome too.

[DarkChaplain]

I'm really happy with how The Crimson Fist turned out.

I knew John French had a lot of talent due to his past stories, including The Last Remembrancer, Fateweaver and various short stories, but his latest Horus Heresy contributions have been fantastic!

 

Grey Angel was a really amazing audio drama already, but The Crimson Fist? Heck, he made sure to cover all his bases!

Flight of the Eisenstein, The Lightning Tower, Mechanicum, arguably The Outcast Dead... he dealt with them all while giving us the reasons why Sigismund remained on Terra. Back then it was all about Sigismund returning after Phall, which never felt suitable, considering his involvement in Mechanicum.

I prefer this version of the events.

 

Btw, was I the only one who cheered when Polux

smashed Golg's head into a bloody pulp

?

 

Best of all, John managed to make me appreciate the Imperial Fists for once, and kept me from getting bored of yet another void battle. If you ask me, John French has qualified himself for taking on the Imperial Fists. I trust that he can pull them off better than any other before him.

[Lord Tharand]

I bought the e-book over the week and only read "Prince of Crows" thus far. But, I love how ADB puts such depth of character into the Night Lords. I would go so far as to say that this short story, and Sevatar's thoughts, shine more light onto the Night Lord's psyche than even ADBs Night Lords trilogy. I was just truly amazed by Sevatar since he didn't turn out at all how I expected. Priceless!

 

Next up, "The Crimson Fist". With all the hub bub about Sigismund in this thread I have to see what he's up to for myself!

[warpedphonecian]

Dorn is only upset that he listened to the witch, not that he stayed with him.

 

It's not only that Sigismund may have listened to a witch; it was his failure to be a functional member of the legion whose primarch is obsessed with stoic emotionless service. Not leading the retribution fleet because Sig 'doesnt feel like it' goes against the way Dorn leads and expects his legion to be led. I liked this story cuz it says a lot about Dorn. Although he's present in many books his 'functional' responses don't let us see beyond his cold exterior. Disappointment in a favored son... Now that's some good HH storytelling.

 

Just finished both novellas. For some reason I thought Phall was as big a deal as Calth and expected it to be a whole book. I felt the tables turned in the Fist's favor a bit quickly. I thought the first person narrative worked nicely for the fleet commander, ESP the transition from his flashback to waking up in the wreck surrounded by bloodsicles in zero g.

 

Prince of crows is awesome. Won't spoil anything but Pretty much everything Sevatar says is a memorable one-liner. One Sevatar mystery is explained leaving another for Mr. Bowden to finally reveal

(ahem, gauntlets).

Also, the Kyroptera, the Night Lords' Mournival, has some very interesting characters, so I hope to see a few when their HH book finally comes out.

[Angel of Solitude]

While there's understandably a lot of talk about the portrayal of Sevatar in the Prince of Crows, one of the minor references that I did enjoy was how concerned Sevatar was that the Dark Angels seemed to be able to

translate their entire fleet at the same time. Clearly this is a reference to the Dark Angels now making full use of the warp entity that they picked up in The Primarchs.

I suspect that this may be a plot device that we'll see more and more of as the battle of Terra approaches.

[DarkChaplain]

While there's understandably a lot of talk about the portrayal of Sevatar in the Prince of Crows, one of the minor references that I did enjoy was how concerned Sevatar was that the Dark Angels seemed to be able to

translate their entire fleet at the same time. Clearly this is a reference to the Dark Angels now making full use of the warp entity that they picked up in The Primarchs.

I suspect that this may be a plot device that we'll see more and more of as the battle of Terra approaches.

 

Aye, that reference was on one hand reassuring to get, but on the other it makes you question the Lion even further. He intended to use it against the Night Lords, but would he really be late to the Siege of Terra if he had access to something like that?

I'd even go as far as to speculate that

Tuchulcha is going to be a vital point in the destruction of Caliban and the scattering of the Fallen.

I think it would be very interesting to have the Lion inviting his Legion's doom to his homeworld.

[Angel of Solitude]

Aye, that reference was on one hand reassuring to get, but on the other it makes you question the Lion even further. He intended to use it against the Night Lords, but would he really be late to the Siege of Terra if he had access to something like that?

I'd even go as far as to speculate that

Tuchulcha is going to be a vital point in the destruction of Caliban and the scattering of the Fallen.

I think it would be very interesting to have the Lion inviting his Legion's doom to his homeworld.

I'd have to agree that

Tuchulcha will ultimately have some involvement with the destruction of Caliban.

While there are several outstanding questions, the most interesting one for me is

what happens to Tuchulcha between 30k and 40k? I know there was some speculation previously that perhaps Tuchulcha is locked away somewhere in the Rock, and is used to power it.

. It will be interesting to see how BL develops this further!

[Gree]

Well I finally got to read Prince of Crows and I thought I should put up my thoughts as a review.

 

I…liked it. It’s certainly a well-written novel and nicely paced. The first scene especially was good. It also offers extensive insight into the inner workings of the Night Lords Legion and how its upper command structure worked. They even have their own ‘’Mournival’’ of sorts. Although I thought the name was rather hokey, even by 40k standards.

 

The Night Lords were one of my favorite Legions. In fact they were the first ever army that I played in 40k, so as such they do hold a special place in my heart. Seeing more of them is always good, especially when we get to see into Curze’s dreams.

 

I thought that it did a fairly good job of illustrating Curze’s psyche and how he viewed the world and the Legion around him. One sees him why he is such a damaged individual and why he acts the way he does in the novella.

 

Although with Curze I was rather wondering why he needed some sort of normal human psyker to tend to him. Surely the Legions would have Librarians? I know the Night Lords had a Librarium and they have no reason to obey Nikaea.

 

I was rather wondering what the deal was with Rushal, the Raven Guard traitor. Forgive me, but was he explained somewhere? I don’t recall seeing this character before and I was rather wondering what the deal was with him.

 

Although this may surprise some but… I don’t really like Sevatar.

 

Yeah, I said it. Oh, he’s certainly a well-written character and pretty well put. But I always thought his inclusion was off-putting when we already had Sahaal as First Captain. Not only that but Sahaal is written as an unpopular Captain who cannot hold his Company together.

 

It just seemed to me that the author never wanted to really write Sahaal and decided to write in his own First Captain instead of playing to the one prior established. And said First Captain is also a psyker to boot and apparently the only one who could unite the Legion, unlike Sahaal who is apparently cast as a pretty unpopular guy.

 

Yes, I’m aware that the author’s intention was probably not quite I what I described, but that’s the impression I got from reading.

 

Another issue I have is with the Atramentar. Correct me if I’m wrong but they are described as being wiped out a dozen men.

 

‘Why did you order us into this attack?’ asked Tal Vanek. ‘The Atramentar survived Isstvan, only to die to the last dozen in this suicidal madness?’'

 

Yet more Atramaentar show up later on. Did they promote more guys or something?

 

On a more personal level. It’s also the kind of story that strikes me with deep envy as an Ultramarine fan. Even when only vaguely alluded took the Lion and the Dark Angels achieve all sorts of awesome stuff here and in other novels were they are more deeply expanded.

 

Having been rather disillusioned with the current performance of the Ultramarines and Guilliman, Prince of Crows was one of those novels that solidified my switch from an Ultramarines successor chapter to a different Legion. Namely the Dark Angels. (I did consider the Imperial Fists successor, but that would be put as a side project for the future. I had already been toying with making my Eagle Claws into Imperial Fists.)

[DarkChaplain]

They even have their own ‘’Mournival’’ of sorts. Although I thought the name was rather hokey, even by 40k standards.

 

Just to throw this in:

Kyroptera is derived from Chiroptera, which apparently is the order of animal species that Bats have been grouped with. So below the hood (or cowl?), the name makes sense.

 

But I always thought his inclusion was off-putting when we already had Sahaal as First Captain. Not only that but Sahaal is written as an unpopular Captain who cannot hold his Company together.

 

It just seemed to me that the author never wanted to really write Sahaal and decided to write in his own First Captain instead of playing to the one prior established. And said First Captain is also a psyker to boot and apparently the only one who could unite the Legion, unlike Sahaal who is apparently cast as a pretty unpopular guy.

 

To my knowledge, Zso Sahaal only assumed that role after Sevatar's death, and the Legion hated him for trying to become the Night Haunter's heir using the Corona Nox, which got stolen.

Throughout the Crusade and the Heresy, it's been all about Sevatar, and frankly, I am totally fine with it, as Sahaal never appealed to me from all I knew.

If you haven't read Soul Hunter and Blood Reaver yet, they both refer to Sahaal in a few scenes and explain what happened after Curze's assassination.

 

Btw, was Sahaal featured anywhere outside of Lord of the Night and AD-B's Night Lords trilogy? I'd like to think that LotN was quite biased in Zso's favor, for obvious reasons. He obviously thought himself the sole Night Lord worthy of becoming Konrad's heir - which the other Captains never agreed with.

[Gree]

They even have their own ‘’Mournival’’ of sorts. Although I thought the name was rather hokey, even by 40k standards.

 

Just to throw this in:

Kyroptera is derived from Chiroptera, which apparently is the order of animal species that Bats have been grouped with. So below the hood (or cowl?), the name makes sense.

 

That is exactly why I called it hokey. it's too much fo a forced reference.

 

To my knowledge, Zso Sahaal only assumed that role after Sevatar's death, and the Legion hated him for trying to become the Night Haunter's heir using the Corona Nox, which got stolen.

 

Which as I know largely appears in these novels, hence my criticism.

 

If you haven't read Soul Hunter and Blood Reaver yet, they both refer to Sahaal in a few scenes and explain what happened after Curze's assassination.

 

Which again, relates to my dislike of Sevatar and my criticism as detailed above.

 

Btw, was Sahaal featured anywhere outside of Lord of the Night and AD-B's Night Lords trilogy? I'd like to think that LotN was quite biased in Zso's favor, for obvious reasons. He obviously thought himself the sole Night Lord worthy of becoming Konrad's heir - which the other Captains never agreed with.

 

You could say that it was biased, but that probably was not the intention that Sahaal was the unpopular weak Captain when LotN was released.

[-Ares-]

Although I really love Sevatar, I have to agree with Gree about Sahaal. I would love to read more about him as a important character in the HH storyline.

 

It's true that Sahaal is only featured in LotN. But we must not forget, that the Night Lords were underdogs most of the time. It was actually a true wonder, that a novel about the Night Lords where even published back then. Sahaal probably was the first named Night Lord character that people recognized at all and the influence of LotN was absolutely stunning for the whole Night Lord Fanbase. It can be argued if Sahaals point of view was really true. But it was not his version of the truth that made Sahaal such a strong character but his uncompromising passion and hate and vindication. His love and adoration for his father was the first glimpse into the HH timeline, how it must have felt to be an Astartes in that time.

 

IMO the Night Lords are the most torn of all Legions and at the same time also the Legion with the most cohesion. No matter how different the Legionaries were or how much they hated each other, they all loved their father. The Night Lords are a very emotional lot. After Horus defeat, it was not the mighty Sons of Horus, nor Angron's Psychos, nor the unrelenting Death Guard, who stood their ground. They all fled. It was the corwardly Night Lords who refused to flee. All the other Chaos Legions had some egoistic centred reasons for turning on the Imperium. Only the Night Lords truely believed in the righteousness of their path, delusional or not.

 

ADB has showed a stunning representation of the wicked side of the Night Lords. I think it would enrich the Night Lords and the HH a lot by also expanding their passionate side. And for me Sahaal is the embodiment of these traits. It is not important to me, if Sahaal plays a major role in the HH or not. But it would really be a huge waste to make him a sidenote. I believe ADB should expand the Sahaal-Legacy. He has the skill to do him and the Night Lords justice.

[Wade Garrett]

Here's my problem with "Crimson Fist":

 

Since when is the IV Primarch a practicioner of "Casually murder soldiers who might have some use later, because they had the audacity to inform me of things I did not want to know"?

I can see Fulgrim, Angron, or Curze doing that, but not Perturabo. Hopefully Angel Exterminatus will either clear this up, or just ignore it.

 

As for the lack of Sahaal...ADB has posted his reasons for not focusing too much on him elsewhere (For Dummies version: Because he does not want to step into the screaming match between those who think Sahaal is the best thing since Lightning Claws and those who think he's a deluded one armed loser who left his brothers to die during the Eldar attack) and I personally see it this way:

Most Legions only have one cool badass first Captain. VIII Legion has not only Jago Sevatarion, but also the man who invented Assault Marines.

 

Problem, Loyalists?

[Kol Saresk]

Not only that, but I remember something about A-D-B saying something or other about not wanting to touch too much on another author's work. Besides, Sevatar is totally Bada**.

[Wade Garrett]

The one thing I would change about A-D-B's depiction of Sevatar in Prince of Crows and Savage Weapons is his use of the terms "halberd" and "glaive" interchangeably. Those are two distinct pole arms, and it makes my Inner Stickler froth at the mouth and claw the air in a most alarming fashion.

Granted, my IS does aknowledge that neither term refers to a nine foot long ceramite pole with a chain stuck to the end of it, but still!

[Kol Saresk]

The one thing I would change about A-D-B's depiction of Sevatar in Prince of Crows and Savage Weapons is his use of the terms "halberd" and "glaive" interchangeably. Those are two distinct pole arms, and it makes my Inner Stickler froth at the mouth and claw the air in a most alarming fashion.

Granted, my IS does aknowledge that neither term refers to a nine foot long ceramite pole with a chain stuck to the end of it, but still!

Fair enough. I believe it started out as a glaive. I think he just does it so people won't have a heart attack when they try to model it and can't tell if they should do a chainsword with a really long handle or a chainaxe with a really long handle. This way, they just do a chainblade on a schtick.

[Chaplain ChonkE]

Loved the Crimson Fist. Sigismund is much more heroic and traditionally epic in this vein; I've always imagined in my head that Sigismund (since the last BT dex at least) would have turned his back on Dorn in the end for his failures and weaknesses. I am excited to see how this relationship is handled further! It is exciting to see discord appear in a Loyalist legion internally. New ground kind of :D I like it!

[Smirnov]

Here's my problem with "Crimson Fist":

 

Since when is the IV Primarch a practicioner of "Casually murder soldiers who might have some use later, because they had the audacity to inform me of things I did not want to know"?

I can see Fulgrim, Angron, or Curze doing that, but not Perturabo. Hopefully Angel Exterminatus will either clear this up, or just ignore it.

And did that the Fists lose a won battle for no reason bother you? It bothered me a lot. 'Hey, we are actually winning! We can take Perturabo down! Oh noes, Dorn calls! Abandon everything and run to be gunned down!'

[-Ares-]

@Sahaal:

I do understand ADB point of not touching another author's work. But I think it is fair to assume that Simon Spurrier will not be coming back anytime soon. And it would not be continuing the Sahaal storyline but incorperating him into the 30k timeline, which would make a lot of sense. Maybe as the Captain of a Assault Company.

 

@Crimson Fist:

I was also surprised by several details in Crimson Fist. Perturabos temper, Sigismunds characterisation and the sudden retreat of the Fists. But after giving it some thought I think everything is very organic. Perturabo was always depicted as rather bad tempered and somehow it fits well. He has a own sense of responsibility and projects it to his sons. It's not a question of guilt, but one of responsibility. If he gave one of his sons a responsibility and he didn't meet it, they will feel his disappointment. In a way the scene with Dorn and Sigismund is the same. And probably Sigismund would have preferred to be beaten to death by Dorn instead of being rejected as son. The scene between Sigismund and Dorn is incredible good, since it truly shows the attitude of the Fists and the reason why they will never be corrupted by Chaos. And I love this new approach to Sigismund. IMO he is vastly more heroic that way. I love how John French depicts the Primarchs, not by describing them in some adjectives, but by just showing how they react and feel (compared to Fear to Tread, where Sangunius is described in a lot of fancy words, but his behaviour does not show these traits at all).

 

And that's also why I think that the retreat of the Fists are cohesive. Crimson Fist is all about duty and discipline. Maybe they could have won. But maybe staying there and fight would have led to a far greater loss somewhere else. They did not know. That's more or less what Dorn tells Sigismund, too. It is hubris to think that you can judge the situation better than Dorn or the Emperor. It is this very subtile form of heroism that makes the Fists stand out so much in that novella.

 

My only question is, what is the connection with the title? Why Crimson Fist?

[Aegnor]

Doesn't Pollux become the founding Chapter Master of the Crimson Fists when the Second Founding occurs? And all the references to his bleeding hand in the story explain why he chose it for the chapter's name.

[Smirnov]

And that's also why I think that the retreat of the Fists are cohesive. Crimson Fist is all about duty and discipline. Maybe they could have won. But maybe staying there and fight would have led to a far greater loss somewhere else. They did not know. That's more or less what Dorn tells Sigismund, too. It is hubris to think that you can judge the situation better than Dorn or the Emperor. It is this very subtile form of heroism that makes the Fists stand out so much in that novella.

Yes, I can buy that. And it makes perfect sense. Sigismund takes his own judgement above orders, Polux follows orders to the letter. But the story itself doesn't focus it enough. The decision to retreat is not pointed out as a hard one for Polux. There are implications that he weights the options, the Navigator says that there is a small opening that might close faast, for example. But the decision itself is made fast and with no second thought.

 

And in the end we have Polux who let Perturabo escape and lost the whole fleet save few ship and a third of a legion save maybe few hundreds and followed the order, and Sigismund, who defyed the order and became one of the greatest heroes of Imperium who single-handedly held Eternity Gate while Emperor, Dorn and Sanguinius were away.

 

My only question is, what is the connection with the title? Why Crimson Fist?

As Aegnor said. And at one yime Polux has a bloody fist, which is obviosly crimson ))

[Haranin]

Read the Collection Visions books; while its being overwritten by the BL series, its still the core book.

 

Its pretty clear that Dorn only has a few companies on Earth, and they were all used in the raid on Mars.

 

The Crimson Fist fleet remnants arrive at Terra HOURS before Horus does. So while the fleet might have been able to finish off a Primarch, and a good chunk of the IWs, the defenders of Terra would have been significantly weaker. Perhaps enough so that Horus could have overrun the palace before the Dark Angels, Wolves and Smurfs could pressure Horus into a mistake.

[Balthamal]

I (like many) bought the collection purely for Prince of Crows, since I already have the audio dramas and Death of a silversmith.

 

All I have to say is Sevatar is quite possibly one of the best creations in the whole HH series. We've had the noble heroes, tragic fallen heroes, ignorant heroes and (in the case of the word bearers) some downright nasty villains. Sevatar though is, well, a complete psychopath. I can't think of any creation from BL who is utterly engaging but if existed in the real world would be reviled for being totally unconnected with anyone (barring a few inferred exceptions).

 

Hopefully, we'll get a full novel starring the Night Lords since

ending their stories locked in Dark Angel isolation cells would be one sucky way to go

 

 

And A-D-B, I salute you, I was completely taken by surprise with the reason Sev is called the Prince of Crows. Stroke of Genius

 

Oh and I actually smiled at Talos' small cameo

[Smirnov]

Read the Collection Visions books; while its being overwritten by the BL series, its still the core book.

 

Its pretty clear that Dorn only has a few companies on Earth, and they were all used in the raid on Mars.

 

The Crimson Fist fleet remnants arrive at Terra HOURS before Horus does. So while the fleet might have been able to finish off a Primarch, and a good chunk of the IWs, the defenders of Terra would have been significantly weaker. Perhaps enough so that Horus could have overrun the palace before the Dark Angels, Wolves and Smurfs could pressure Horus into a mistake.

It's not clear from the story how many Fists escaped Phall, but the impression is that it's only a handful of ships. It's hard to take each story out of the wider context (and sometimes even wrong), but it has to be done. Assume I don't have Visions of Heresy (which I do) or that the story is my first HH read. I read only what I read, nothing more. From this perspective Polux' obidience is not questioned and is not made a focus of the story. I would have had no qualms if _at least_ a paragraph was dedicated to outlining of the decision Polux had to make. As it stands the text depicts him as some kind of automaton that gives no thought to the orders he is given (yes, a soldier has to obey orders, but if he is a human being he will give them thought) and a commander who can't make an organised retreat. The Fists _run_ from the system, it is clearly depicted as so in lines that lighter ship abandon larger ships and go for it. Maybe Polux is the kind of soldier that blindly obeys orders without even thinking on them, but why such a catastrophic rout? Why couldn't he organise a fighting retreat? The story gives no answer to that question and it seems that Polux is plainly a bad commander, which he obviously isn't as he was winning a battle against a primarch

[Haranin]

Polux was thinking that if Dorn gave that sort of order, and he had a narrow range of time to get what he could to Terra. I think the story adequately presented Polux's viewpoint that Terra could have already fallen. As far as he knew, one strike cruiser showing up with 100 marines could have been enough to save Dorn or the Emperor and allow them to escape Terra.

 

Polux didn't question the order because he knew he didn't have the information that Dorn did.

 

Hours mattered in this case. Polux actually didn't have time to finish off the IW. He had no margin.