DarKnight Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 @Smirnov all of the additional organs, as well as extensive psycho-indoctrination makes Astartes not quite human anyway. and that situation is exactly why Astartes have to be post-human. He still did question the order but he knew that the creed of his Legion is that orders are followed at all costs or there is no Legion. Discipline is at the utmost. He would have given his life to kill Perturabo without a second thought, however he had the order and the window through the warp storms. No question. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259626-shadows-of-treachery/page/5/#findComment-3227531 Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Ares- Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 @Smirnov: I agree with you, that it could have been framed better. Pollux thoughts could have been outlined more and his reasons to follow the Order immediately instead of waiting for a better opportunity. Still it is a very good story =) @Crimson Fist: You guys are right. I somehow thought that Pollux was a new creation. But after some research I found out, that Pollux was already established in the Index Astartes. Flight of the Eisenstein also mentioned him. So my bad. PS: My favorite sentence in Crimson Fist is: "He(Dorn) was shaking as if huge forces were straining inside him. It was the most terrifying thing Sigismund has ever seen." Really great description! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259626-shadows-of-treachery/page/5/#findComment-3227626 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Engel Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 Re: AD-B and Sahaal - I actually asked him about this a long time ago on his Facebook, and his response was that Spurrier didn't even respond to polite questions about the character and his planned direction for it. So for the Night Lords trilogy, Sahaal was written out and explanations had to be derived as to why he wasn't the respected leader he made himself out to be (he's not even respected in his own novel, after all). And you know what? Good. Sevatar is a way more interesting character than Sahaal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259626-shadows-of-treachery/page/5/#findComment-3228183 Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Ares- Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 @Spurrier: Oh ok, I didn't know that. =/ That's a real pity. As I said, I love Sevatar a lot. It just would be awesome to see Sahaal again. I would have no problem with it, if some Night Lords prefer Sahaal over Sevatar and the other way around. The Night Lords are pretty torn anyway. Maybe we should write Mr. Spurrier a Letter and kick his ass! =p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259626-shadows-of-treachery/page/5/#findComment-3228268 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirnov Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 Sevatar though is, well, a complete psychopath. I can't think of any creation from BL who is utterly engaging but if existed in the real world would be reviled for being totally unconnected with anyone (barring a few inferred exceptions). He seemed like the more rational and sane Night Lords of any. Preoccupied with the survival of the legion, actually commanding the force and caring for select humans (this, i must admit, was the most striking feature to me). Hours mattered in this case. Polux actually didn't have time to finish off the IW. He had no margin. That doesn't quite fit. Imperial Fists had 2/3 of the legion on Terra. How did 100-something marines Polux salvaged could make a difference in the grand scale? @Smirnov:Still it is a very good story =) No argue here, it's good. It could have been great with just so much shift of a focus. That's what pains me. He'll kill me for saying this, but I know he's a little hesitant over how people will react to Sigismund. I think that's the best bit. People will, by and large, love the new take on it. No need to be hesistant for him. If he does Sigismund wrong, we'll just crusade him. The usual way, y'now %) And thank you for the great read on Prince of Crows (I should italise it, right?). I was never sympathetic to the Night Lords and have some sympathy for the Angels, but Prince of Crows was the first time I actually felt for the Lords. Coming back to Crimson Fists, I'm amused that to some Sigismund seems to be a gloryhound or choosing the time and place of his demise. As I read the story, I got the idea that Keeler presented Sigismund with a choice: either do your duty, obey the order and die unknown and unremembered alone, or forsake the order, bear the burden of that decision, but be with your Lord when he needs you the most (even if he doesn't know it yet). Did I read it wrong? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259626-shadows-of-treachery/page/5/#findComment-3231057 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haranin Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 I'll pull the cite for the Imperial Fists strength at Terra being a few companies... cite please for the 2/3 on terra? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259626-shadows-of-treachery/page/5/#findComment-3232027 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 I understood what Keeler was saying and why Sigismund went with that decision, I think a lot understand Dorn's point though as well and so wasn't sure whether what Dorn said was the truth of it or was Sigismund being noble and doing something he knew his father wouldn't understand. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259626-shadows-of-treachery/page/5/#findComment-3232044 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirnov Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 I'll pull the cite for the Imperial Fists strength at Terra being a few companies... cite please for the 2/3 on terra? In the same Crimson Fist it is stated that Retribution fleet is roughly 1/3 legion force, 30K Astartes (if I don't mess up with numbers). Eisenshtein encountered the Phalanx and the whole Imperial Fists fleet, so it should have been pretty much the whole legion minus some dispatches forces. Those who didn't go to Istvaan most likely went with Dorn - where else would they go? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259626-shadows-of-treachery/page/5/#findComment-3232087 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 There were also Imperial Fists dotted around the Galaxy such as on Hydra Cordatus and the Imperial Fist ship in Distant Echoes of Old Night from the Games day anthology. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259626-shadows-of-treachery/page/5/#findComment-3232094 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haranin Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 Collected Visions p.337 Dorn orders his four companies of veteran Space Marines and a large army force to Mars. After a few hours of fighting Imperial Fists and Army escape from Mars with barely one thousand warriors. p. 352 Dorn had all the Imperial Fist veterans on Terra, those four companies were under half strength post Mars. "The greater part of Dorn's Legion had been dispatched on a futile mission to the Isstvan system." p.353 The Iron First fleet broke warp over Uranus. White Scars and Blood Angels show up soon there after. As the loyalists moved into Earth orbit, the traitors arrived at Mars. -- We do know that legions sizes are alot larger in the books, then Collected Visions. But what we do know are three key pieces of information- 1. Post Mechanicum novel, Imperial Fists on Terra are four half strength companies. 2. Pollux had ~30,000 marines (based on your assumptions) pre battle 3. Imperial Fists at the start of the siege had the four half strength companies, plus Pollux's survivors present. That is it. Considering how tight the siege was, and the advantages of defense over attack, a few Fists in the palace at the right time are worth more then taking the IW off the table. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259626-shadows-of-treachery/page/5/#findComment-3232879 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirnov Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 30K Fists with Polux is not mine assumption, these are the numbers given in Crimson Fist, which raised my question - where are the other 60K if these 30K were stated as one third of the legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259626-shadows-of-treachery/page/5/#findComment-3232912 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 A lot where on Terra, others where in garrisons around the galaxy, such as Hydra Cordatus as shown in Angel Exterminatus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259626-shadows-of-treachery/page/5/#findComment-3232946 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haranin Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 30K Fists with Polux is not mine assumption, these are the numbers given in Crimson Fist, which raised my question - where are the other 60K if these 30K were stated as one third of the legion. Didn't have the book at hand; just being clear that I was basing the figure on your information Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259626-shadows-of-treachery/page/5/#findComment-3233134 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 You also have to remember, when dealing with the fluff from Collected Visions, then the strength of the Legions has been drastically increased since then. Prior to about Deliverance Lost, maybe, the Legions were all at about 10,000 -- so having four great companies (4,000) of Fists manning the walls isn't so bad a thing. But now that we're talking about the Legions at about 100,000 each, you have scale the commentary from Visions to fit with the new fluff. So 30,000 went with Polux and about a quarter of that came back; maybe another 10%-20% or so were scattered about the Imperium as garrisons and honor guards similar to those on Hydra Cordatus. That leaves Dorn with (including Polux's survivors) somewhere in the neighborhood of 50,000 Marines to man the walls. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259626-shadows-of-treachery/page/5/#findComment-3233615 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artein Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 I believe ADB once said that they've increased the strength of the Legions after A Thousand Sons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259626-shadows-of-treachery/page/5/#findComment-3233631 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haranin Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 That would follow- Mechanicum had Dorn stating he has four companies on Terra, all of which participate on the raid on Mars. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259626-shadows-of-treachery/page/5/#findComment-3233830 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarkassBC Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Finished to read the book. Now I can add my thoughts on the thread. @Crimson Fist Of course, the best "tactical" choice would be to continue the fight and gain the victory against the IW fleet... but in that way the result would be a "strategic" defeat elsewhere. First... Pollux received not an "astrophatic" message, but a full order made with a superpowered psyscreams... he thought for a moment the previous astrophatic messages arrived garbled or in a dream-like state with needed time to decode them, now a clear order given at maximum power (except few all the astrophaters burned due to it)... so in the end the message/order was very hard to dismiss Second... why we think the decision was bad... because we know what happened in the same time, but put in the moment we can think of a "extration" request... think about this scenario: Dorn and the Emperor blocked on Earth with a traitorous blockade fleet in the system... many casualties on both sides but no other ships for the loyalists and other traitor fleets incoming... before the closing a time window for an extraction fleet to arrive and save Emperor, Dorn and the genetic laboratories (the pure genetic code made wondrous results in the first batch for the RG) and sail swiftly to the Ultramar's fortresses... Pollux ships were needed not to win the battle but to save the entire Imperium. (Ok it's the same scenario for Branne and the rescuing of Corax... few ships won the day) Honestly I think I would remained in the system until the IW fleet start to break the engagement and start to create space between the two enemy fleets... I don't know why but I think the IW have a device able to open a hole in the storm... if I leave a lot of enemy ships still active they will use again the device to reopen the hole and escape... if I press too much, they feel doomed and thought to remain inside and fight to the end... What I want to know really it's the aftermath of Phall for the Traitor side: "The information is accurate?... It's come from the Warmaster..."... wrong numbers, wrong intelligence datas... not good things for a groups of traitors... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259626-shadows-of-treachery/page/5/#findComment-3238865 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantras Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Another point is that, given the strength of the Psychic message sent by Dorn to Pollux, would Pollux's fleet be in any shape after the battle to return home? Psychic support depleted and all that... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259626-shadows-of-treachery/page/5/#findComment-3238875 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirnov Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Psychiс support? We are talking about Imperial Fistss and Dorn, who +imprisoned_ all IF Librarians after Nikea Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259626-shadows-of-treachery/page/5/#findComment-3238971 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantras Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Exactly, so who would act as astropaths and navigators? It described them as all suffering from the strength of the message Dorn sent. Warp travel pretty tricky without Navigators... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259626-shadows-of-treachery/page/5/#findComment-3238992 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveNYC Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Exactly, so who would act as astropaths and navigators? It described them as all suffering from the strength of the message Dorn sent. Warp travel pretty tricky without Navigators... The astropaths were all head 'sploded, but I don't remember any mention of the Navigators being wiped out. Those two are very different species of psyker so who knows. I doubt the were though, otherwise you'd have to try and explain why they decided to abandon a battle they were winning to start on a journey that they had virtually zero chance of completing. The only major problem I'm having with the HH books (outside of the stinkers in the series) is that the Primarchs seem to be falling into two groups. Interesting characters that you'd like to hear more about, even if they do stupid things and/or are psychotic (Magnus, Curze, Guilliman, heck even Angron in his short story); and those that don't get much characterization and end up coming across as blinkered idiots (Perturabo, Lion, Dorn, Manus). It's not 100% or anything, but the guys in the second group are really getting the short end of the stick writing wise. Clenched jaws, violent outbursts against their minions, lack of critical thinking skills, and in some cases, getting out thunk by mooks (Perturabo, I'm looking at you). Could be worse though, unless I've missed an audiobook, Vulkan has only shown up as a large angry green (looking) individual punching tanks, which means you could replace him with The Hulk and nobody would notice a difference. Other than the purple pants. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259626-shadows-of-treachery/page/5/#findComment-3239080 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarkassBC Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Exactly, so who would act as astropaths and navigators? It described them as all suffering from the strength of the message Dorn sent. Warp travel pretty tricky without Navigators... The astropaths were all head 'sploded, but I don't remember any mention of the Navigators being wiped out. Those two are very different species of psyker so who knows. I doubt the were though, otherwise you'd have to try and explain why they decided to abandon a battle they were winning to start on a journey that they had virtually zero chance of completing. The only major problem I'm having with the HH books (outside of the stinkers in the series) is that the Primarchs seem to be falling into two groups. Interesting characters that you'd like to hear more about, even if they do stupid things and/or are psychotic (Magnus, Curze, Guilliman, heck even Angron in his short story); and those that don't get much characterization and end up coming across as blinkered idiots (Perturabo, Lion, Dorn, Manus). It's not 100% or anything, but the guys in the second group are really getting the short end of the stick writing wise. Clenched jaws, violent outbursts against their minions, lack of critical thinking skills, and in some cases, getting out thunk by mooks (Perturabo, I'm looking at you). Could be worse though, unless I've missed an audiobook, Vulkan has only shown up as a large angry green (looking) individual punching tanks, which means you could replace him with The Hulk and nobody would notice a difference. Other than the purple pants. Only the astropaths suffered the massive psychic message not the navigators... About the "faulty" primarchs, sincerely I found very interesting the Lion... the story "The Lion" was very good because showed a paranoid (he trusts no one) but extremely pragmatic primarch... the killing of Nemiel was perfectly in touch with a spirit neither white nor black... Unfortunately for the fan of Dorn, he seem like a spoiled child who tend to overreact every time the situation is diefferent that what he wants. After the Horus Heresy, the story of the Iron Cage was exemplar of a mind extremely narrowed... he continued to the dead end not accepting even a possible error of judgement... The call back of the Retribution Fleet was made disregarding every possible risk to the Astropaths... someone told there are difficulties... he shouted more... In Outcast Dead when the six fugitive marines (six and not six thousands) avoided some capture attemps he went in a overkill mode, sending hundreds of Imperial Guards, Astartes and even himself to kill them (and killing everyone else)... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259626-shadows-of-treachery/page/5/#findComment-3239162 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantras Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 I'll acceed to the point RE navigators, but any Military Unit that cannot communicate effectively becomes useless, that was the problem with the Eisenstein. Point i'm ham fistedly trying to make is I don't think Pollux could have just beat Perturabo and then bimbled back to Terra. He strength of the message, and its effects of the Astropaths, meant that he had to go, as it was a now or never situation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259626-shadows-of-treachery/page/5/#findComment-3239573 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger9gamer Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Crimson fist and lightning towers are some of my favorite stories of the Horus Heresy so far. Dorn is awesome! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259626-shadows-of-treachery/page/5/#findComment-3239946 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 I liked it, but felt pretty cheated on it. i already own 5 of the 7 stories inside. If the NL story wasnt so damn awesome i probably would have skipped it entirely. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259626-shadows-of-treachery/page/5/#findComment-3239952 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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