Dark Angel circles and theme confusion

[FerociousBeast]

The starter set has just been revealed, and it oh-so-ably highlights one of the biggest problems the Dark Angels have had, for decades really, as a tabletop army. Theme confusion. Those who have participated in the Codex: Unforgiven project know that Dark Angel themes are a particular interest of mine, because Dark Angel themes are a mess! The Dark Angels are monks. They are knights. They are American Indians. They are freemasons. They have the names of Hebrew demons. They are torturers. How on earth does one sort that out??? Compare the Dark Angels thematically to the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and Ultramarines--or should I say Angelic Vampires, Viking Werewolves, and Roman Legionnaires? Those themes aren't necessarily laser-focused--Angels and Vampires would tend to make odd bedfellows--but they aren't nearly as muddled as the Dark Angels'.

 

Take a look at the models in the starter. The Librarian just oozes the Dark Angels' monastic theme. Quite a nice model. Then have a gander at the Master. Quite the heroic figure, isn't he! I dare say he'd fit right in at the Round Table, raising toasts alongside Sir Galahad to Guinevere's beauty! And those terminators. Love the feathers! I quite fancy the idea of a sweet little Pocahontas back home at the Rock, lovingly stringing together feathers for her fearless braves in the Deathwing. ... Ugh. Almost enough to make me start Space Wolves.

 

I said, "almost," brother Isiah! Please! Not Chamber 42! *A long, drawn out scream recedes down the dank and gloomy passageway, then ominous silence resumes its reign, punctuated only by a steady drip... drip... drip...*

 

Ahem, well, I was pondering the situation today when I realized that, while the theme problem will always be a problem, it could perhaps be mitigated somewhat by combining it with the idea of Circles within Circles.

 

If there is anything good that has come out of the Horus Heresy series, it could possibly be the fleshing-out that the Circles concept has gotten. Obviously the idea has been around in embryonic form for some time, but the Dark Angel novels have really brought the idea of circles to the fore and, if current rumors be given credence, may find their way into the next DA codex. If Circles do in fact feature in the codex, perhaps each circle could champion one of the themes. Some of the outer circles would be mandatory, like once a marine joins the Ravenwing, he is initiated into the Circle of Silence where he is taught the importance of secrets--both finding and keeping them--as well as how to employ stealth on the battlefield.

 

Circle of Silence -- Units with this Circle have the Scouts and/or Infiltrate USR. In this circle, a Dark Angel proves himself ready for initiation into the Unforgiven's secret shame.

Circle of Resolve -- Deathwing units. Fearless USR and Deathwing Assault. In this circle a Dark Angel learns of The Fall and learns what he must do for absolution.

 

Once a Dark Angel proves himself in the Circle of Resolve, he may be initiated in one of these three middle circles:

 

Circle of Knowledge -- The Monastic theme. Librarians belong to this circle. Ld +1? Re-roll reserves? Preferred Enemy? Not sure, something like that.

Circle of Vengeance -- The dark, brooding, and nasty theme. Interrogator Chaplains belong to this circle. Cause some kind of fear mechanic. Access to Blades of Reason?

Circle of Valor -- The Knightly theme. Re-roll failed hits with sword-type weapons? Some kind of advantage in duels?

 

Finally, the most senior Dark Angels are initiated into the:

 

Inner Circle -- No specific theme. The leaders of the chapter. Bestow Fearless on any unit they join? Not sure.

 

Thoughts? Do you think this would help resolve the theme issue? Do you even agree that there is an issue? Tell me why I'm wrong! :)

[Reinen]

It's the interesting theory.

[Brother dean]

Perhaps the forthcoming codex has resolved this.

[Pbenner]

I think the new Codex will have the world's greatest deep-dish apple pie recipe.

 

Paul

[Bryan Blaire]

I think the new Codex will have the world's greatest deep-dish apple pie recipe.

 

Paul

Circles are all about pi, so it's a possibility, Paul. :D

 

I don't know, FerociousBeast, it could work I think, it's definitely one possible way of explaining it, but I'm not sure how likely I feel it is that GW has a solution that put-together. It's very interesting to think on though.

[puck]

I like it. It allows each theme attached to the DA's to be fleshed out and (perhaps more importantly) have actual definable tabletop rules and qualities.

 

The only issue I could possibly see is in this setup, the army on the tabletop loses a good bit of its visual unity with indians, monks, torturers and knights running around in the same army.

[BERZERKER!]

I like it a lot!

 

I think it also gives a further layer of depth to the secrecy of the chapter.

[Phoebus]

I think there are really two themes that define the Dark Angels - one broad, one narrow and focused.

 

1. The broader of the two themes is the overarching one for the Dark Angels. They are an order of monastic knights that resemble such organizations as the The Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon (popularly known as the Knights Templar), but also feature the sinister nature of the real-world Spanish Inquisition. Again, this theme applies to the Chapter as a whole; it draws upon their Calibanite origins, but is informed by Luther's betrayal and the subsequent efforts to conceal this event and capture all the Fallen. Without the great secret of the Inner Circle, the Dark Angels would most likely be a compromise between the Black Templars and the Ultramarines - monastic knights without the fanaticism.

 

* For instance, the popular notions of certain rites and secrets correlating with specific ranks within the order itself.

 

2. The more focused one is that of the Deathwing. It applies to those of the Dark Angels who have been inducted into the First Company specifically. This theme celebrates the deeds of the warriors of the First Company who, in an unknown time (have the events of the Deathwing Space Hulk game been dated?), faced down a Genestealer infestation threatening the Chapter's sole recruiting world at that time.

 

These two themes are easily reconciled with one another, IMHO. Just as no (loyal) Dark Angel hails from Caliban any longer, so does a warrior who has passed through the Deathwing not need to be born of that "Plains World". The color of the armour, the feathers, etc., are an homage to what the Chapter's heroes accomplished in a pivotal, long-ago battle. It's no different than any number of armies whose soldiers adopted emblems, equipment, and dress that corresponded with a specific place, battle, or campaign.

 

Ultimately, ALL Dark Angels - in my eyes, at least - are monastic knights. The degree by which the "Spanish Inquisition" motif (torture, etc.) applies is dependant on how far along they are in terms of advancement. So,

 

1. Battle-Brother - non-Deathwing inducted Veteran Sergeant: standard monastic knight. A page right out of the Knights Templar or Knights Hospitaller, circa the first two or three Crusades. Solemn, stoic, devout, focused on perpetuating their creed via martial skill.

2. First Company: Knight Templar, but more intense. Fuelled by the conflict that the revelation of the Fallen thrusts upon him.

3. Master/Inner Circle: a knight that has been "corrupted", if you will, by the requirements of his position. His priorities are much more complicated than they once were. He can no longer afford to think simply in terms of the Imperium's needs or Humanity's needs.

4. Interrogator Chaplain: full-on Spanish Inquisition, circa late 15th/early 16th centuries. Torture, machinations, manipulations, etc., are all acceptable means to ensure that the Chapter succeeds in its ancient quest of redemption. Even if, paradoxically, said redemption corrupts those who work directly for it - morally and spiritually.

5. Supreme Grand Master/Chapter Master: a mixed bag. He might be Torquemada reborn... or he might be like one of the more honorable Popes of that era, who were able to (more or less) balance the political and military responsibilities of their state with the responsibilities of their office.

 

Just my thoughts! :)

[Cactus]

I think you've nailed it Phoebus. That's the neatest reconciliation of the Dark Angels' various identities and real-world analogues I've ever read. :)

[Leonis]

I disagree. I think the blended themes work well. The cloistered secretive warrior monks, willing to do anything to absolve themselves of past sins. The bone white armour and the feather talismans of their former Amerindian recruits homeworld. I think the Dark Angels have a deeper and more varied background than any other chapter. I find space romans a bit 2D for my tastes. I like the depth the Dark Angels have. I wouldn't want to see that split up, dissected and codified into rules. I REALLY wouldn't want the secret circles of the rock fully explained away. Sometimes the best part of a story is the part the author doesn't tell you.

 

I like my secrets. That's why I'm a Dark Angel.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Judging by the Harry Potter robes Master Balthasar(sp?) has been dressed in, I'd say GW intends on making us take the more 'noble' route, it will keep the young players happy in that we are the new posterboys.

 

I like your reasoning FB, I'm not sure GW would do anything as creative/expansive. I'd like to be wrong ofc.

 

My hope is we don't get too many more capes and tabards, I prefer robes and poor fighting monks instead of weathly wizards as a visual theme. Master B looks more wizardy/High Elvish than the Libby imho.

 

2c

 

stobz

[FerociousBeast]

Well, I certainly am not expecting GW to go with the exact approach outlined in the OP, especially as they would relate to the themes, I just think it would be neat if they did :lol:

 

The Circles thing has been rumored to be in the codex, but from an unknown source, so who knows if it's really in there or not. However, I don't think it would be surprising if it was, since it's in some ways similar to the Sagas idea in Space Wolves. Except in this case, each Circle could be on its own more limited in effect than the individual SW sagas, but with the bonus of being able to be combined with lower tier Circles. Circles within Circles, see? :)

 

And it's not like a member of the Circle of Valor would eschew all robes--though certainly there are models that do. All Dark Angels are monastic, all Dark Angels have a knightly heritage. It's just that some would emphasize one part more than the others.

[Interrogator Stobz]

It sure would be neat, youv'e got a great idea there.

Maybe we can be cynically optimistic over a glass of wine while we wait for the dex.

[Aleax]

Hi.

The starter set has just been revealed, and it oh-so-ably highlights one of the biggest problems the Dark Angels have had, for decades really, as a tabletop army. Theme confusion. Those who have participated in the Codex: Unforgiven project know that Dark Angel themes are a particular interest of mine, because Dark Angel themes are a mess! The Dark Angels are monks. They are knights. They are American Indians. They are freemasons. They have the names of Hebrew demons. They are torturers. How on earth does one sort that out??? Compare the Dark Angels thematically to the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and Ultramarines--or should I say Angelic Vampires, Viking Werewolves, and Roman Legionnaires? Those themes aren't necessarily laser-focused--Angels and Vampires would tend to make odd bedfellows--but they aren't nearly as muddled as the Dark Angels'.

 

Take a look at the models in the starter. The Librarian just oozes the Dark Angels' monastic theme. Quite a nice model. Then have a gander at the Master. Quite the heroic figure, isn't he! I dare say he'd fit right in at the Round Table, raising toasts alongside Sir Galahad to Guinevere's beauty! And those terminators. Love the feathers! I quite fancy the idea of a sweet little Pocahontas back home at the Rock, lovingly stringing together feathers for her fearless braves in the Deathwing. ... Ugh. Almost enough to make me start Space Wolves.

 

I said, "almost," brother Isiah! Please! Not Chamber 42! *A long, drawn out scream recedes down the dank and gloomy passageway, then ominous silence resumes its reign, punctuated only by a steady drip... drip... drip...*

 

Ahem, well, I was pondering the situation today when I realized that, while the theme problem will always be a problem, it could perhaps be mitigated somewhat by combining it with the idea of Circles within Circles.

 

If there is anything good that has come out of the Horus Heresy series, it could possibly be the fleshing-out that the Circles concept has gotten. Obviously the idea has been around in embryonic form for some time, but the Dark Angel novels have really brought the idea of circles to the fore and, if current rumors be given credence, may find their way into the next DA codex. If Circles do in fact feature in the codex, perhaps each circle could champion one of the themes. Some of the outer circles would be mandatory, like once a marine joins the Ravenwing, he is initiated into the Circle of Silence where he is taught the importance of secrets--both finding and keeping them--as well as how to employ stealth on the battlefield.

 

Circle of Silence -- Units with this Circle have the Scouts and/or Infiltrate USR. In this circle, a Dark Angel proves himself ready for initiation into the Unforgiven's secret shame.

Circle of Resolve -- Deathwing units. Fearless USR and Deathwing Assault. In this circle a Dark Angel learns of The Fall and learns what he must do for absolution.

 

Once a Dark Angel proves himself in the Circle of Resolve, he may be initiated in one of these three middle circles:

 

Circle of Knowledge -- The Monastic theme. Librarians belong to this circle. Ld +1? Re-roll reserves? Preferred Enemy? Not sure, something like that.

Circle of Vengeance -- The dark, brooding, and nasty theme. Interrogator Chaplains belong to this circle. Cause some kind of fear mechanic. Access to Blades of Reason?

Circle of Valor -- The Knightly theme. Re-roll failed hits with sword-type weapons? Some kind of advantage in duels?

 

Finally, the most senior Dark Angels are initiated into the:

 

Inner Circle -- No specific theme. The leaders of the chapter. Bestow Fearless on any unit they join? Not sure.

 

Thoughts? Do you think this would help resolve the theme issue? Do you even agree that there is an issue? Tell me why I'm wrong! :)

Well I don't see any link between the supposed background full of contradictions of the Dark Angels and your own rules really, but please explain because I am confused. ^_^ (1) Also, I fail to see your confusion with the Dark Angel background. Yup, Dark Angels are knights, and also have feathers. But feathers, being of an angelic nature to me, do not contradict the knight theme of the Dark Angels. Dark Angels are knights and angels. As for the monk-style, I am all for nuking this really, yup this contradict the knight nature of the Dark Angels (knights don't wear robes ^_^ ) and depict the Dark Angels in the eyes of others as garbage : look, they have robes ! :)

 

Where I see a confusion though, because there is one :ph34r: , is about the Lucifer-theme of the Dark Angels of now (past Space Hulk/Deathwing of the 90's) and the primarch Lion'el Jonson. Everybody will agree that Lion'el Jonson is a Lion, and an Angel. Actually fans even made successor chapters with a Winged Lion as the chapter symbol, and they pretty cought what Lion'el Jonson is. Now, Lucifer...Lucifer is a winged Lion? Hum, at the risk to shock the Lucifer fans right in these boards, Lucifer is a goat. So yeah, Lucifer has little to do with the primarch, and I would thus venture to say little to do with the Dark Angels of Lion'el Jonson - so there's your confusion.

 

- I would add though that I like your Circle of Silence rules. B) Your Circle of Valor, I like it too, just that I would give Dark Angels here a parry rule with the sword all across the board instead. B) -

 

(1) Ah, gotcha. Rules for every aspect of the DA background so that the newbies have at least rules to depict all contradictions of the DA background so they can base their Dark Angels on or explain to their opponents that the Dark Angels have a background full of sense after all: it's even depicted by the very rules... Well IMO, this does not bandage anything, if something has really to be bandaged by this mean. But these rules, well taken alone (without your explanations about why you created them), are interesting nonetheless, and true, GW is rumoured to walk in this direction nonetheless. Nice move from your part, and Circle of Silence please, GW! :wink:

 

Cheers.

[Bryan Blaire]

Hum, at the risk to shock the Lucifer fans right in these boards, Lucifer is a goat. So yeah, Lucifer has little to do with the primarch, and I would thus venture to say little to do with the Dark Angels of Lion'el Jonson - so there's your confusion.

What are you talking about?

 

1) No one mentioned Lucifer until you, so there was no implication of confusion until you made it. What was mentioned was Hebrew demons, which is what the names Belial and Asmodai allude to. Azrael isn't necessarily a demon, but in some texts is the Angel of Death.

 

2) A goat? What are you talking about? This one is going to be really hard to debate without violating the religion rules on the board, but suffice it to say that only more modern depictions of the Devil/Satan utilize the satyr depiction (a half-goat), old Hebrew/Jewish information doesn't actually corroborate that depiction (actually, there's not a lot of description of him other than being "the most brilliant and beautiful of all the angels").

 

Edit: BTW, I wouldn't agree that the Lion was an angel. So not everyone will agree. He is the last true Beast of Caliban, though he shows his nobility in keeping it on a very tight leash.

[Brother Landrain]

The starter set has just been revealed, and it oh-so-ably highlights one of the biggest problems the Dark Angels have had, for decades really, as a tabletop army. Theme confusion. Those who have participated in the Codex: Unforgiven project know that Dark Angel themes are a particular interest of mine, because Dark Angel themes are a mess! The Dark Angels are monks. They are knights. They are American Indians. They are freemasons. They have the names of Hebrew demons. They are torturers. How on earth does one sort that out??? Compare the Dark Angels thematically to the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and Ultramarines--or should I say Angelic Vampires, Viking Werewolves, and Roman Legionnaires? Those themes aren't necessarily laser-focused--Angels and Vampires would tend to make odd bedfellows--but they aren't nearly as muddled as the Dark Angels'.

 

I have to agree completely here...

 

Blood Angels have a couple of simple rules that enforce the whole vampire theme... Red Thirst, Black Rage, as well as two new characters Sanguinor and Astorath, FC, and FNP from their priests even kind of reinforce a vampiric theme, as well as assault troops, since vampires fly ;) ...

 

Space Wolves embrace the werewolf type theme... Mark of Wulfen, Acute Senses, Counter attack, the thunderwolves and TWC.

 

Ultramarines, are just all about being by the book...

 

The Dark Angels, very hard to pin down...

 

Ok lets have a Army with all Terminators (DW)... ohhh and lets let them also use all Bikes (RW)... oh and lets also let them use a lot of tanks (Ironwing)...

Now, lets let them almost be a Chaos legion... with the Fall... but they want to redeem them selves, so they hunt the fallen.

And, they originally were Knights fighting Chaos Beasts on Caliban, and had an Order...

But now they wear robes like monks...

And they recruit Native American descendants, so they have strange names (two heads talking), and wear feathers...

They are also very secretive, and have no problem using torture... or even murder or genocide to protect their secret...

 

There are really too many ways to go with the varied themes we have already.

 

I really like the idea of the circles. I think it could be very easy to implement on a squad by squad basis.

Define the circles, define their ingame effect, and then derive a point cost, and have it as an option for each squad to purchase.

Some circles would only be available to certain types of squads, and some squads would be able to have more than one circle...

 

Some ideas...

 

Circle of Silence - Scout, Infiltrate, Stealth USR

Circle of Resolve - Fearless, FNP

Circle of Knowledge - Prefered Enemy

Circle of Retribution - Counter attack

Circle of Vengeance - Hatred, Flashbane

Circle of Destruction - Tank Hunter, Armourbane

Circle of Fear - unit causes fear

???

 

A tactical, assault, devastator squad could have one circle..

DW, RW could have two circles..

A Character could have as many circles as he has wounds...

 

just some ideas...

In an RPG this would be a great thing to expand upon and create...

Would love to be able to build up custom characters with different stat bonus's and USR's to establish the different circles

[shabbadoo]

The DA master is not the "space knight", and he's not "right out of a king Arthur story" either. He's not wearing a knightly tabard, but a robe. And over that he is wearing a chasuble, which is a priestly garment (and over that he has a cloak). But if one doesn't know what a chasuble is, then one really doesn't know what they are looking at to begin with. Put a tall hat on him instead of the winged helmet and he's the "Space Pope", and somebody will no doubt do so using Kyrinov's head or one of their own devising. ;) The DA Master is a space knight wearing space priest clothing, just as the Librarian is a space knight wearing space monk/priest clothing. As you will note, there is a religious theme plastered over the standard Space Marine "space knight" theme. The DW Native American symbols are rather low key, being made more so the the inclusion of more Imperial/DA Chapter-specific decorations. So, nothing too spectacularly unique at this point. I do hope for some further defined background/Chapter Structure in the codex, but we'll have to wait and see what it is, as at this point the codex is a wrap (or so they say).

[Captain Semper]

The starter set has just been revealed, and it oh-so-ably highlights one of the biggest problems the Dark Angels have had, for decades really, as a tabletop army. Theme confusion. Those who have participated in the Codex: Unforgiven project know that Dark Angel themes are a particular interest of mine, because Dark Angel themes are a mess! The Dark Angels are monks. They are knights. They are American Indians. They are freemasons. They have the names of Hebrew demons. They are torturers. How on earth does one sort that out??? Compare the Dark Angels thematically to the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and Ultramarines--or should I say Angelic Vampires, Viking Werewolves, and Roman Legionnaires? Those themes aren't necessarily laser-focused--Angels and Vampires would tend to make odd bedfellows--but they aren't nearly as muddled as the Dark Angels'.

Take a look at the models in the starter. The Librarian just oozes the Dark Angels' monastic theme. Quite a nice model. Then have a gander at the Master. Quite the heroic figure, isn't he! I dare say he'd fit right in at the Round Table, raising toasts alongside Sir Galahad to Guinevere's beauty! And those terminators. Love the feathers! I quite fancy the idea of a sweet little Pocahontas back home at the Rock, lovingly stringing together feathers for her fearless braves in the Deathwing. ... Ugh. Almost enough to make me start Space Wolves.

 

I do not think biblical names/knights/monks/torturers are difficult themes to reconcile - I certainly don't see them as contradictory. If one looks for historical analogies, self-righteous warriors of God (i.e. warriors firmly believing they serve a higher ideal to the point that all their actions are justified just because) there will be tons of them - and not only in the European context mind you. So if something like this existed in real life, imagining it in the 40k context is really no such big leap of faith (terrible pun I know…) The only really contradictory theme in my view is the (long dropped by GW) native American theme. I know that visually the feathers still persist but they are more of a side thing, a DW-specific tradition rather than a faction defining theme.

 

If there is anything good that has come out of the Horus Heresy series, it could possibly be the fleshing-out that the Circles concept has gotten. Obviously the idea has been around in embryonic form for some time, but the Dark Angel novels have really brought the idea of circles to the fore and, if current rumors be given credence, may find their way into the next DA codex. If Circles do in fact feature in the codex, perhaps each circle could champion one of the themes. Some of the outer circles would be mandatory, like once a marine joins the Ravenwing, he is initiated into the Circle of Silence where he is taught the importance of secrets--both finding and keeping them--as well as how to employ stealth on the battlefield.

Circle of Silence -- Units with this Circle have the Scouts and/or Infiltrate USR. In this circle, a Dark Angel proves himself ready for initiation into the Unforgiven's secret shame.

Circle of Resolve -- Deathwing units. Fearless USR and Deathwing Assault. In this circle a Dark Angel learns of The Fall and learns what he must do for absolution.

 

Once a Dark Angel proves himself in the Circle of Resolve, he may be initiated in one of these three middle circles:

 

Circle of Knowledge -- The Monastic theme. Librarians belong to this circle. Ld +1? Re-roll reserves? Preferred Enemy? Not sure, something like that.

Circle of Vengeance -- The dark, brooding, and nasty theme. Interrogator Chaplains belong to this circle. Cause some kind of fear mechanic. Access to Blades of Reason?

Circle of Valor -- The Knightly theme. Re-roll failed hits with sword-type weapons? Some kind of advantage in duels?

 

Finally, the most senior Dark Angels are initiated into the:

 

Inner Circle -- No specific theme. The leaders of the chapter. Bestow Fearless on any unit they join? Not sure.

 

I think you're onto something here - I really like the concept behind it! Although the knight/monk/torturer themes might happily co-exist in a Chapter giving it a very distinct and clear cut profile, using DA Characters and signature units to exemplify each aspect of the overall theme is a fun way to play around with the (hugely underdeveloped) Circles within Circles theme.

 

However I'd also like to see the Circles transcending military structure instead of being confined by it. In a sense I'd rather the Circles were an upgrade for Sergeants (yes even Greenwing ala 3rd ed. Codex) that will then either give the sergeant or (better yet) his squad a special ability. In any case, if rumours are to be believed the Codex is either done but not yet released or in the final stages of production – which means all we have to do is wait and hope! :)

 

I think there are really two themes that define the Dark Angels - one broad, one narrow and focused.

 

1. The broader of the two themes is the overarching one for the Dark Angels. They are an order of monastic knights that resemble such organizations as the The Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon (popularly known as the Knights Templar), but also feature the sinister nature of the real-world Spanish Inquisition. Again, this theme applies to the Chapter as a whole; it draws upon their Calibanite origins, but is informed by Luther's betrayal and the subsequent efforts to conceal this event and capture all the Fallen. Without the great secret of the Inner Circle, the Dark Angels would most likely be a compromise between the Black Templars and the Ultramarines - monastic knights without the fanaticism.

 

I quite agree with this. All of it. The Fallen is what makes the DAs any different from a Codex chapter. In a way they are UMs. You know, strategists, good with logistics, brave, loyal… Only the visual effect would be different as Phoebus said. Monastic vs. Roman…

 

2. The more focused one is that of the Deathwing. It applies to those of the Dark Angels who have been inducted into the First Company specifically. This theme celebrates the deeds of the warriors of the First Company who, in an unknown time (have the events of the Deathwing Space Hulk game been dated?), faced down a Genestealer infestation threatening the Chapter's sole recruiting world at that time.

 

These two themes are easily reconciled with one another, IMHO. Just as no (loyal) Dark Angel hails from Caliban any longer, so does a warrior who has passed through the Deathwing not need to be born of that "Plains World". The color of the armour, the feathers, etc., are an homage to what the Chapter's heroes accomplished in a pivotal, long-ago battle. It's no different than any number of armies whose soldiers adopted emblems, equipment, and dress that corresponded with a specific place, battle, or campaign.

 

Here I sort of disagree…

 

The DW defining theme has nothing to do with the plains world incident. It is a footnote in the history of the Chapter that involved 5 Marines (or thereabouts don’t remember exactly). Certainly not the entire DW nor the entire Chapter. Yes it was an important event in the context of the time and yes the DAs DW is painted ash-white because of that… end of story. DW has everything to do with the secrets of the DAs and is the strong arm of the Inner Circle – the enforcers if you like. That’s their theme, and that’s what GW is pushing in the last 20 yrs – certainly after the “Codex Angels of Death” was introduced. DW existed before the Plains World incident and carries on in exactly the same fashion, after the Plains World incident…The incident had an impact on their visage (turned white from black) but not on their mission or their defining characteristics. So the Native American theme exists on the sidelines (with those persistent feathers here and there) but is in no way a defining theme for the DW – far from it.

 

*ducks to avoid Bryan’s tomahawk* :D

 

Ultimately, ALL Dark Angels - in my eyes, at least - are monastic knights. The degree by which the "Spanish Inquisition" motif (torture, etc.) applies is dependant on how far along they are in terms of advancement. So,

 

1. Battle-Brother - non-Deathwing inducted Veteran Sergeant: standard monastic knight. A page right out of the Knights Templar or Knights Hospitaller, circa the first two or three Crusades. Solemn, stoic, devout, focused on perpetuating their creed via martial skill.

2. First Company: Knight Templar, but more intense. Fuelled by the conflict that the revelation of the Fallen thrusts upon him.

3. Master/Inner Circle: a knight that has been "corrupted", if you will, by the requirements of his position. His priorities are much more complicated than they once were. He can no longer afford to think simply in terms of the Imperium's needs or Humanity's needs.

4. Interrogator Chaplain: full-on Spanish Inquisition, circa late 15th/early 16th centuries. Torture, machinations, manipulations, etc., are all acceptable means to ensure that the Chapter succeeds in its ancient quest of redemption. Even if, paradoxically, said redemption corrupts those who work directly for it - morally and spiritually.

5. Supreme Grand Master/Chapter Master: a mixed bag. He might be Torquemada reborn... or he might be like one of the more honorable Popes of that era, who were able to (more or less) balance the political and military responsibilities of their state with the responsibilities of their office.

 

Just my thoughts! :)

 

I wish I’d written that! :D

 

I agree with everything although for point 5 I’d go for a bit darker version…

 

The Chapter Master will not consider the Imperium’s needs or Humanity’s needs unless there was no conflict at all with the pursue of the Fallen. This is supported by fluff so far as DAs are known to abandon positions in favor for pursuing their own agenda.

 

To me it’s a personal dialogue of the DAs with the Emperor albeit an imaginary one as the Emperor cannot really contribute much (I think). All the DAs actions are aimed to ultimate redemption in the eyes of the Emperor. He knows and the DAs know he knows. So since he cannot absolve them due to technical issues, the DAs have to absolve themselves in his eyes. And in their mind the way to do that is to catch all the Fallen. This is the greatest service they can offer the Emperor and the Emperor is the only entity (other than the Lion that they don’t know where he is – always the last place you look :lol:) they care to offer service to. Not the High Lords, not the Imperium – this is only a sideshow for them. They have to operate within the Imperium’s structure – this is a choice that has already been made – but they do not share the agenda. From a certain perspective that makes them insidious or even traitorous – hence the need of keeping secrets- but what keeps them firmly in the loyalist side is their loyalty to the Emperor who is the common denominator of Humanity, the Imperium and the Dark Angels.

[Brother Tyler]

I think that the confusion on themes is solely fan-based and, like the whole "circles" issue, has more to do with over-thinking things.

 

The theme of the Dark Angels is redemption.

 

The following is a simplification...

 

Their origins are that of righteous knights (the so-called "Arthurian" theme) under the leadership of Lion El'Jonson. With Luther's heresy, however, we have the seeds of doubt. In the aftermath of the destruction of Caliban and the sundering of the Legion, the Dark Angels fall in to darkness. They no longer have the light of their leader, the Primarch, to guide them. As a result of this, we see them adopting the Hunt for the Fallen and the maintaining of secrecy. Now they are willing to do just about anything to ensure that no one else learns of their legion's weakness. The names of many Dark Angels characters are those of demons/fallen angels, a literary symbol that the Legion has fallen from purity, light, and grace into shame. This does not mean that they are evil (well, no less evil than anyone else in the game), but it is a stark contrast to their view of themselves as being truly righteous.

 

The Hunt for the Fallen is their quest for redemption.

 

We might speculate that they will be redeemed when, in their eyes, the last of the Fallen is brought to "justice" (what they consider to be justice, at least), or maybe when the Lion returns to them. Perhaps the sad reality is that they will never be redeemed as they have set for themselves an impossible quest. Or maybe their redemption will happen when, as many speculate, Cypher reaches the Emperor. The role of the Lord Cypher, after all, was to be the embodiment of the Order's principles and morality. The Dark Angels and their Unforgiven brothers fear and loathe Cypher. They seek to capture him and kill him. If they do that, however, and if he is the key to their salvation, they will be defeating their own quest for redemption. Their own efforts may be their downfall.

 

This is a tale of Man against Self, though expanded to a multitude.

 

All of the other little things are just nuances and embellishments, things that give the Dark Angels character and complexity. None of these, however, defines the Dark Angels or their theme. They are merely cosmetic.

 

Just my view.

[Captain Semper]

I think that the confusion on themes is solely fan-based and, like the whole "circles" issue, has more to do with over-thinking things.

 

The theme of the Dark Angels is redemption.

 

The following is a simplification...

 

Their origins are that of righteous knights (the so-called "Arthurian" theme) under the leadership of Lion El'Jonson. With Luther's heresy, however, we have the seeds of doubt. In the aftermath of the destruction of Caliban and the sundering of the Legion, the Dark Angels fall in to darkness. They no longer have the light of their leader, the Primarch, to guide them. As a result of this, we see them adopting the Hunt for the Fallen and the maintaining of secrecy. Now they are willing to do just about anything to ensure that no one else learns of their legion's weakness.

 

Which begs the question: Why? Why didn't they come clean?

 

I mean the DAs at some point they had to make a descision: do we come clean or keep a secret till (literally) the end of days? If they recognised the Imperium as a legitimate heir to the Emperor's authority, they should have stood the judgement of the High Lords of Terra - and accept their verdict whatever it might have been, even the dissolution of the Chapter and the destruction of all its Marines. Why? Because the recognised authority of the Emperor said so... In fact that's what I beleive they would have done if the Emperor was alive!

 

But they choose a life of secrets. That can only be justified if they could not trust the judgement of the High Lords on the matter because they (in the eyes of the DAs) were not carrying the Emperor's authority. Right there, the DAs had seperated the Emperor from the Imperium. In fact they think they know better than the High Lords as to what needs to be done: they need to stay alive and catch the Fallen. And cannot take the risk that the High Lords will have different views on the matter. So they take them out of the equation in the biggest cover-up operation that exists in the Galaxy! And to support my take on the matter, the fact that they abandon the battelfield even if they are desperately needed the by the defenders of the Imperium shows their disregard to the Imperium and their focus on what they perceive as their main task in life, namely to redeem themselves in the eyes of the Emperor. They are self-centered, secretive and ruthless.

 

The way you put it, you make them seem like tragic heroes that fate dealt them a bad hand. I say they are more evil than your average loyal marines and that's their appeal... They are not tragic heroes that circumstances put them in this position. They consciously put themselves in this position through deliberate actions and deciscions - even to the extent of buildng specialist branches within their Chapter (and other Chapters (the Unforgiven) too showing disregard for the Codex Astartes on a much more fundamental level than internal Chapter organization) to safeguard the secrecy of their true intentions. But they are loyal to the Emperor... I think Fallen Angel/daemon names are appropriate not only to denote loss of purity and shame but also evil demeanor...

[FerociousBeast]

I think that the confusion on themes is solely fan-based and, like the whole "circles" issue, has more to do with over-thinking things.

 

The theme of the Dark Angels is redemption.

 

I don't completely disagree with you, Brother Tyler, but "redemption" as a theme does not explain the Dark Angels' visual style or mental philosophy. Yes, maybe it works as a literary theme in some books featuring the Dark Angels, but that's not really what I'm talking about in this thread.

 

Having been a part of the Codex Unforgiven project from its start to the point where it got hopelessly bogged down in endless minutiae, I have seen first-hand how differently people view the Dark Angels. People like Ronin_eX and ADB see the story of the Order on Caliban, the winged helmets, and the sword motif and insist that the Dark Angels should be more like Arthurian knights. People like me see the monastic nature of the Order, the robes, the censors, the secrets, the torture and we resist the Arthurian take and resent the efforts of the Black Library novelists to take the chapter in that direction.

 

I'm sure there are debates in the Blood Angels forum about how vampiric they should be portrayed, and I'm sure some Space Wolves fans dislike the werewolves thing, but I don't see it often if such debates do happen.

 

Everyone knows what a Blood Angel is. Everyone knows what a Space Wolf is. There have been minor flourishes here and there in the stories that have been written for these chapters, but compare those minor variations to the massive pendulum swings we've "enjoyed" in the novels depicting our own chapter. There is a problem here.

[Phoebus]

Here I sort of disagree…

 

The DW defining theme has nothing to do with the plains world incident. It is a footnote in the history of the Chapter that involved 5 Marines (or thereabouts don’t remember exactly). Certainly not the entire DW nor the entire Chapter. Yes it was an important event in the context of the time and yes the DAs DW is painted ash-white because of that… end of story. … The incident had an impact on their visage (turned white from black) but not on their mission or their defining characteristics. So the Native American theme exists on the sidelines (with those persistent feathers here and there) but is in no way a defining theme for the DW – far from it.

Right, and I should have been more careful in qualifying this: while theme #1 was aimed at the Chapter's character in general, theme #2 was aimed just at the Deathwing's look.

 

I agree with everything although for point 5 I’d go for a bit darker version…

 

The Chapter Master will not consider the Imperium’s needs or Humanity’s needs unless there was no conflict at all with the pursue of the Fallen. This is supported by fluff so far as DAs are known to abandon positions in favor for pursuing their own agenda.

Allow me to clarify. Azrael certainly makes the same hard decisions as other Supreme Grand Masters have. Unlike most of his peers, though, he is described as gregarious, charismatic, dynamic, vital, a beacon of hope, etc. So there's obviously a range in terms of personalities, which is what I was trying to illustrate with the Torquemada vs. different Popes from that era example. ALL of the Popes of the late 15th and 16th centuries, for instance, were known to be Machiavellian politicians (and worse in some cases), but not all were subsumed by the priorities. That is, we see through Azrael that a Supreme Grand can ALSO be an individual who is heroic (in the 40k sense).

 

Beyond that, you know my thoughts. I absolutely agree that the Fallen define the Dark Angels. On the other hand, I believe that the Dark Angels are every bit as staunch in their defense of Mankind as, say, the Ultramarines... but that this changes the second they hear of the Fallen. In that sense, I don't think their "normal" duty (because how often do the Fallen really pop up?) is considered a "sideshow"... it just becomes that once every few decades, for as long as it takes to nab the latest known Fallen. :

 

EDIT: for some reason, when I wrote "corrupted" in terms of someone who has attained the rank of Master, the default example I could think of was Brian de Bois-Guilbert from "Ivanhoe". He was a Knight-Templar who knew that his infatuation with Rebecca was wrong and against his moral code, but who nonetheless was driven to make her his. Thus, a Master of the Dark Angels as well - he knows that his Chapter's quest against the Fallen goes against the greater duty of the Adeptus Astartes, but he goes against it anyways. By contrast, an Interrogator-Chaplain sees nothing wrong with the quest. The quest is all.

 

The Dark Angels, very hard to pin down...

 

Ok lets have a Army with all Terminators (DW)... ohhh and lets let them also use all Bikes (RW)... oh and lets also let them use a lot of tanks (Ironwing)...

Now, lets let them almost be a Chaos legion... with the Fall... but they want to redeem them selves, so they hunt the fallen.

And, they originally were Knights fighting Chaos Beasts on Caliban, and had an Order...

But now they wear robes like monks...

And they recruit Native American descendants, so they have strange names (two heads talking), and wear feathers...

They are also very secretive, and have no problem using torture... or even murder or genocide to protect their secret...

 

There are really too many ways to go with the varied themes we have already.

What's wrong with that?

 

The historical Knights Templar featured Knights of various ranks and titles, Mounted Sergeants, and non-noble infantry... all of whom fought under the same banner and Order.

 

Furthermore, the various Militant Orders (Knights Templar, Knights Hospitaller, Teutonic Knights, etc.), also spent a considerable time in robes and similar garments. In fact, the Knights Templar retained that look (and were very much considered knights all the same) throughout the existence of their order; the Hospitallers ceased dressing the part when they also ceased playing it (becoming notorious for their piracy at one point, as well as for having given up their vows of poverty, chastity, etc.); and the Teutonics eventually became more an order of aristocracy than a militant order of Christian knights.

 

The look is really no issue. The look of the Ravenwing can be reconciled easily when you consider that the Order (of Caliban) was basically a unification of ALL of that planet's versions of militant knightly orders. The Dark Angels thus are akin to an example of what would have happened if the Knights Templar (for instance) had beaten, coerced, or invited every other knightly order from the 12th century A.D. to join their ranks, but... in an egalitarian fashion... allowed them to keep their colours and emblems so long as they acknowledged their place as part of the Order (the only Order at that), and recognized the same Grand Master.

 

Just my thoughts! ;)

[Ronin_eX]

Honestly the eclectic visual and background themes (and the odd ways they combine and compliment each other) is a strength for me, rather than a weakness. The mix feels more like something that would evolve out of tens of thousands of years of history to me. Our chapter has contained bits of background the hearken back to Arthurian myth, they have had some Native American flair added (though the feathers need not be that anymore as feathers featured heavily in knightly symbolism as well) and a bit of monastic trappings (which, to be fair, a lot of religious knightly orders also used). Hell our current Supreme Grand Master is a shout out to Conan.

 

The eclectic mix of themes and aesthetics are what make Dark Angels an interesting chapter for me over 15 years later. If things start getting old the aesthetic space I have to work with is wide open to experimentation. I kind of hope GW continues embracing that mix personally and I don't see much of a need to reconcile it. They are a knightly chapter on the outside but within they are basically an army of barbarians from a hundred different worlds that are joined together when they become Dark Angels. Thus you have an army of guys dressed like Knights where you will have Native Americans rubbing elbows with Cimmerians. It is a fun escape from more mono-cultural Chapters for me.

[Captain Semper]

EDIT: for some reason, when I wrote "corrupted" in terms of someone who has attained the rank of Master, the default example I could think of was Brian de Bois-Guilbert from "Ivanhoe". He was a Knight-Templar who knew that his infatuation with Rebecca was wrong and against his moral code, but who nonetheless was driven to make her his. Thus, a Master of the Dark Angels as well - he knows that his Chapter's quest against the Fallen goes against the greater duty of the Adeptus Astartes, but he goes against it anyways. By contrast, an Interrogator-Chaplain sees nothing wrong with the quest. The quest is all.

 

I guess that makes me an Interrogator Chaplain... ;)

 

BUT, I see a fundamental difference between our perceptions of the DAs. The issue of conscience! You want them to have some moral compass, something in the back of their head telling them that what they do is on some level wrong. And that is a redeeming feature (by 2k moral standards)! I want to believe there is no such thing! The DAs are ruthless and amoral! Much like a Cold War-era Intelligence Agency, where only the end result matters and the end justifies the means. Always. That makes them harder to like. In fact the only way you'd forgive their moral stance is if you adopt their priorities as yourown, if you become one of them. In my view the minute you award them a redeeming feature, you weaken their overall standing in the 40k Universe.

 

And yes, I hated it when Darth Vader turned good in the end... :(

[Interrogator Stobz]

...

 

And yes, I hated it when Darth Vader turned good in the end... :lol:

+1

And the damned Terminator, "Now I know why you cry" = :cuss

 

Bad is good :lol:

 

I do think that is a seperate issue from a visual theme though. I like the many options we have too, we don't have to choose any/all of them in that regard. We seem to have more depth than other Chapters.