Dark Angel circles and theme confusion

[Brother Nemiel]

I think there people far more knowledgeable och well versed in Dark Angel lore than I, but here are my (actually) humble opinions of the different themes/Symbols:

 

Concept of the Unforgiven: Original sin on steroids...

 

Deathwing: It is of importance exactly why their armor has the color it has. That their symbols and trappings are those of native american indians is of no importance. It is the idea why they have them that is important: Remember the past!

 

In other words: Never Forget!

Ravenwing: These guys still hunt the fallen dressed (read: painted) as they were when it all started. Even though thousands of years have passed, they still hunt the fallen with the same conviction and tenacity as when it all started. They will probably continue to do so until the end.

 

In other words: Never Forgive!

 

Never forget! Never forgive! (kinda rings a bell :lol:)

 

Feathers: I don't know why but the imagery of feathers reminds me of fallen stuff with wings... Be it a bird that has been shot down or a thematically dramatic angel and/or demon. Since some of the Dark Angels fell ages ago and the rest (sort of) soon there after, I think it is quite fitting from that point of view.

Robes: Mysteries, secrets, things obscured etc. Fits right in with other words. Could also be interpreted with a certain holier than thou attitude which fits right in too.

 

Winged Angels: For some reason I will think of ancient Celts and Gauls when I see winged helmets. Either that or old pictures of germanic stories (ring of the nibelungen etc). I don't know why dark angels have them but they are awesome.

 

Space Popes FTW! (Shabbadoo: I owe you one for the term of Space Pope)

[Gillyfish]

For the record, I think Aleax meant Luther, not Lucifer. :D

 

Anyway, I agree with Ronin_Ex that the diversity of imagery can be a strength, but it's interesting that in the previous Codex edition the native american angle was downplayed. With the DV boxset, I notice that there are far more feathers than before, which is actually quite a nice thing (for me anyway).

 

I was attracted to the DA because of their dark background back at the end of 1st edition/beginning of 2nd. That was before the monastic theme had been established. The Deathwing had a native american theme, but a lot of the extant artwork depicted white power-armoured marines with lots of gold decoration, so there was this whole gothic-baroque feel to the army even then. The robes added another dimension at the end of 2nd.

 

So the monkish aspect applies, to some extent, to the whole chapter. The native american aspect to the Deathwing particularly, but perhaps also to the Ravenwing (fast cavalry anyone?). The knightly order aspect is tied to the monkish aspect but also to the original background of the Order on Caliban (again, arguably the Ravenwing can reflect this).

 

Mix that together with Arthurian aspects (particularly the tragic aspects) and you have quite an interesting mix which, if handled correctly, can be really rather engaging. I like pretty much all of those angles because nearly all of them are medieval in scope (perhaps with the exception of the native american aspect, but its arguable).

 

A good manifestation of this mix might be the fact that you can name your DA character after Hebrew angels, demons and biblical characters or equally after some of the (now) lesser known arthurian characters (which is why my company master is called Pellinor, named after King Pellinor one of the old arthurian characters).

 

So it can work, but you sometimes need one theme to rule them and then use the others as accents to highlight certain other flavours and tones.

[Phoebus]

BUT, I see a fundamental difference between our perceptions of the DAs. The issue of conscience! You want them to have some moral compass, something in the back of their head telling them that what they do is on some level wrong. And that is a redeeming feature (by 2k moral standards)! I want to believe there is no such thing! The DAs are ruthless and amoral! Much like a Cold War-era Intelligence Agency, where only the end result matters and the end justifies the means. Always. That makes them harder to like. In fact the only way you'd forgive their moral stance is if you adopt their priorities as yourown, if you become one of them. In my view the minute you award them a redeeming feature, you weaken their overall standing in the 40k Universe.

I think there is a difference between those not in the Inner Circle, and those in the Inner Circle. And even then, there will be degrees of separation between those who just started getting into the game (Deathwing), those who are still relatively new in the Inner Circle (Masters), and those that truly move the Chapter.

 

There HAS to be (in my eyes). Otherwise, it would be just artificial if ALL the Dark Angels were ruthless and amoral. Why would a battle-brother or a Veteran Sergeant be as remorseless as an Interrogator Chaplain if he has never been privy to the secrets, and thus never had to make the tough choices?

 

I just think it just sets up such a juicy conflict within the Chapter that goes beyond the whole Fallen thing if we accept those differences. The Fallen, you see, are a plot device that works only for about 10-12% of the Chapter. But if the other 88-90% are solemn, stoic, monastic knights of a noble demeanor (instead of cold and remorseless) and they suddenly have their world turned upside down when their Master, Interrogator Chaplain, or Supreme Grand Master orders them to abandon an Imperial position (leaving hundreds of thousands or even millions to die horribly!) for reasons they can't even be told... That's just such a powerful theme in my opinion! Can you imagine what that would do to a Uriel Ventris?

 

And I think that's precisely how they pick battle-brothers for the Deathwing. They don't just seek those individuals who simply demonstrate the requisite amounts of prowess, courage, intelligence, etc... They seek those who, when confronted by such an insane event, show mental/psychological fortitude... and also demonstrate the right amount of curiosity as well. The Veteran who shakes his head and tries never to think why his commanders ordered his Company to desert that Imperial Guard Regiment will not be chosen. The Veteran who is dependable and steadfast, though, who emerges from that conflict of the soul unshaken... He will be for the Deathwing!

 

IMHO, of course! :lol:

[Kewl Imp]

The thing I love about the Dark Angels is the mystery invovled. Think of a young gaurdsmen who heard once that the Dark Angels left a world during a battle where they could have turned the tide to win the war and nows it's the Dark Angels who stands next to him apparently ready to fight. That gaurdmens always wondering if Brother Razael is just going to up and leave on the eve of battle. That sums up a great deal of how I feel about the Dark Angels.

 

IF you see the eyes of a Deathwing Sargeant, you would be able to see he knows more than he is ever going to say and you want to know. I wish I could say I was confused about the theme, but the theme is clear to me, Redemption for the mistakes of our forefathers. The feathers I always thought just reflected the name, angel.

[Brother Nemiel]

There HAS to be (in my eyes). Otherwise, it would be just artificial if ALL the Dark Angels were ruthless and amoral. Why would a battle-brother or a Veteran Sergeant be as remorseless as an Interrogator Chaplain if he has never been privy to the secrets, and thus never had to make the tough choices?

 

+1

 

The higher you get in the chapter, the more "corrupt" you will get.

[Gillyfish]

Well the other angle is that it's less about corruption and more about ruthlessness. I got to speak to Jervis at a Games Day a while back and he said that, to him, Dark Angles epitomised the idea of 'the ends justify the means'. So single-minded pursuit of a goal no matter the cost. It's not corrupt necessarily, but it's unlikely to be ethical (whatever that might mean in 40k terms).

[Captain Semper]

I think the OP was right - no other forum has threads like this one, poping up as often as they do in this forum. That in itself is an indication of the many takes the DAs background can justify.

 

So the monkish aspect applies, to some extent, to the whole chapter. The Native American aspect to the Deathwing particularly, but perhaps also to the Ravenwing (fast cavalry anyone?). The knightly order aspect is tied to the monkish aspect but also to the original background of the Order on Caliban (again, arguably the Ravenwing can reflect this).

 

Mix that together with Arthurian aspects (particularly the tragic aspects) and you have quite an interesting mix which, if handled correctly, can be really rather engaging. I like pretty much all of those angles because nearly all of them are medieval in scope (perhaps with the exception of the native american aspect, but its arguable).

 

A good manifestation of this mix might be the fact that you can name your DA character after Hebrew angels, demons and biblical characters or equally after some of the (now) lesser known arthurian characters (which is why my company master is called Pellinor, named after King Pellinor one of the old arthurian characters).

 

So it can work, but you sometimes need one theme to rule them and then use the others as accents to highlight certain other flavours and tones.

 

I really don't see so many conflicting themes for the DAs. The only real odd one out is the Native American theme that cannot be reconciled with all the other aspects. Now having knights/monks/interrogators/baroque accessories can really work together into something unique in the 40k context that draws a lot of inspiration from real world equivalents. I just think the Native American theme is something that has been dropped by GW for sometime now (20 years?) - but still haunts us today, mainly due to the persistant feather imagery and because it was part of the origins of the DW lore... But it is no more and for some time now.

 

Now people might want to play the Arthurian theme up - it can work. Not a fan of tragic btw – there is nothing tragic about the DAs in my view. That’s more BAs territory since they have to overcome a genetic disease that was not theirs by choice. And really would have loved to get rid of it too. Dark Angels made a conscious choice 10k years ago and willingly stick to it to this day - nothing tragic there. Or one can go all dark with no redeeming features theme as I like it, or you can play it somewhere in the middle with a dark theme but with some redeeming features (to pump up the feel-good factor). So yes there are some angles you can play around with DAs (much like other Chapters) but the Native American is not one of them imo.

 

Frankly I wish GW will come up with a new Chapter firmly based on the Native American theme because (i) it’s a theme worth exploring and could give tons of ideas and inspiration instead of being crammed in a faction that is just too incompatible and (ii) to “liberate” DA lore from a theme that haunts them since the 80s without ever becoming a defining feature but is “forced” in the background in each edition for continuity sake. The Plains World incident should take its rightful place in the “famous battles” section and have a paragraph devoted to it in the Codex like the rest of the famous engagements. And that’ll be that.

 

I think there is a difference between those not in the Inner Circle, and those in the Inner Circle. And even then, there will be degrees of separation between those who just started getting into the game (Deathwing), those who are still relatively new in the Inner Circle (Masters), and those that truly move the Chapter.

 

Agreed.

 

There HAS to be (in my eyes). Otherwise, it would be just artificial if ALL the Dark Angels were ruthless and amoral. Why would a battle-brother or a Veteran Sergeant be as remorseless as an Interrogator Chaplain if he has never been privy to the secrets, and thus never had to make the tough choices?

 

Again I agree. Fully.

 

I just think it just sets up such a juicy conflict within the Chapter that goes beyond the whole Fallen thing if we accept those differences. The Fallen, you see, are a plot device that works only for about 10-12% of the Chapter. But if the other 88-90% are solemn, stoic, monastic knights of a noble demeanor (instead of cold and remorseless) and they suddenly have their world turned upside down when their Master, Interrogator Chaplain, or Supreme Grand Master orders them to abandon an Imperial position (leaving hundreds of thousands or even millions to die horribly!) for reasons they can't even be told... That's just such a powerful theme in my opinion! Can you imagine what that would do to a Uriel Ventris?

 

The theme is defined by the leadership. Yes the average DA marine might be, as you say, solemn, stoic, monastic knight of a noble demeanor but is ultimately irrelevant. You could be describing a Marine of any Codex Chapter. That’s not the reason that you or I or anyone is attracted to the DAs. The DAs are all about the Fallen, Interrogator Chaplains, secrets and Circles – and yes that’s only the top 15% of the Chapter. And it could have been even less – say the 5% of the Chapter – I doesn’t matter, they are the ones that make DAs who they are from an out-of-Universe perspective.

 

Chapters gain their individuality (apart from the visual part of course) based on two major attributes: genetics and/or culture. Given that DAs do not have any genetic deviance (like BAs or even SWs) the core of what makes them different is the “cultural” differences. And, as in any organization be it military, intelligence or even corporate, the culture is defned by the high echelons – not the rank and file (who seek to emulate their superiors in becoming integral part of the organization). And so it is the case for Space Marine Chapters. Enter the Inner Circle!

 

What I’m saying is that although I agree with you when you say the odd DA marine could be a solemn, noble monastic knight, this is not who I was referring to when I said that DAs are cold and remorseless. I meant that for those that make the DAs what they are, the ones that matter, the ones that create the theme - the ones that made us choose to play DAs to begin with – not the ones that if you paint them blue are as good as UMs…

 

And I think that's precisely how they pick battle-brothers for the Deathwing. They don't just seek those individuals who simply demonstrate the requisite amounts of prowess, courage, intelligence, etc... They seek those who, when confronted by such an insane event, show mental/psychological fortitude... and also demonstrate the right amount of curiosity as well. The Veteran who shakes his head and tries never to think why his commanders ordered his Company to desert that Imperial Guard Regiment will not be chosen. The Veteran who is dependable and steadfast, though, who emerges from that conflict of the soul unshaken... He will be for the Deathwing!

 

IMHO, of course! :P

 

Again we are in agreement. But, just to clarify, the theme is defined by those that make it into the DW – not those that fail to make it. Even if those that fail are morally better off, refusing to be corrupted by the dark (and dare I say selfish?) true agenda of the Chapter.

 

So again my point is it doesn’t matter if the vast majority of the Chapter is really nice guys – they do not define the DAs. The Inner Circle does. And they are evil! :lol:

[Phoebus]

Captain Semper,

 

Then we find ourselves in complete agreement. A first for the Internet!!! :P

 

Gillyfish,

 

Corruption was a poor word, I admit. What I mean is a perversion of one's ideals and code - a moral slide, if you will, that leads one to become more ruthless in the pursuit of their goals. Thanks for sharing Jervis' words, by the way. It's nice to hear (see?) that kind of confirmation. :devil:

[Captain Semper]

:devil:

 

First indeed! hahahaha!!!

[FerociousBeast]

Frankly I wish GW will come up with a new Chapter firmly based on the Native American theme

 

I somewhat agree, and not just because I have a Shawnee branch in my family tree. It seems like every single other possible meme/theme/idea/archetype has been mined for the 40k universe, so the "Noble Savage Indian" stereotype is kind of an odd man out.

 

But American Indians would make for a very strange Space Marine chapter. I just don't see how you'd reconcile tomahawks, mohawks, and teepees with power armor and bolters. HOWEVER, if GW ever gets around to fleshing out the Exodites, well there you have it right there.

 

Sorry, not to derail my own thread. Just an interest of mine.

 

Anyway, I don't want people to think that I want themes to be dropped from the Dark Angels. Preserving them in a way that makes sense is precisely why I tied them to the idea of Circles in this thread. Right now the problem is that the various themes do not jive with each other. Not that they COULDN'T be crammed together, it's that they HAVEN'T. And so we have Angels of Darkness by Gav playing up the monasticism and secrets, and then The Lion by ADB playing up the "My Liege". If you went through both books and redacted the name "Dark Angels" from them, then gave them to someone new to the setting, they'd assume they were reading about two totally different chapters.

[Gillyfish]

Well, I suppose one counter argument to that is to suggest that the Dark Angels as they were and as they are are actually two very different beasts.

 

The Legion: armoured in black, strong basis in knightly virtue and (individual) martial prowess and valour.

 

The Chapter: armoured in green, introspective and at the higher levels) best by guilt. Monastic in nature. Combat prowess is still important, but it's less about the individual and more sacrificing yourself for the aims of the Chapter.

 

You could argue that the shift in background is a result of the trauma of the fall.

 

I personally like to think of the white-armoured Deathwing as symbolic of the Dark Angels' hope for redemption. If the Tale of Two Heads Talking is taken as truth rather than analogy, it represents a selflessly heroic act in defence of the Imperium. An act so heroic that if it can be attained again would help atone for the sin of the fall. So the Deathwing aren't just the guys that capture the Fallen, but now that they are painted white, they symbolise to the Inner Circle the chance to regain the valour that the Legion lost.

 

Of course that last part is entirely conjectural, but I think the first part of the post present a reasonable argument for a shift in background tone and character from Legion to Chapter.

[Captain Semper]

Well, I suppose one counter argument to that is to suggest that the Dark Angels as they were and as they are are actually two very different beasts.

 

The Legion: armoured in black, strong basis in knightly virtue and (individual) martial prowess and valour.

 

The Chapter: armoured in green, introspective and at the higher levels) best by guilt. Monastic in nature. Combat prowess is still important, but it's less about the individual and more sacrificing yourself for the aims of the Chapter.

 

You could argue that the shift in background is a result of the trauma of the fall.

 

Yes. This is my understranding too. The outcome of the Heresy was a traumatic event for the First Legion, one from which it has never recovered. In fact it was so traumatic that transformed the Dark Angels from a proud organization, ready to take the spotlight and glory in the name of the Emperor to a secretive organization more akin to a cold-War era Intelligence Agency than an elit front line military unit they were supposed to be. Yeap, they are transformed alright...

 

I personally like to think of the white-armoured Deathwing as symbolic of the Dark Angels' hope for redemption. If the Tale of Two Heads Talking is taken as truth rather than analogy, it represents a selflessly heroic act in defence of the Imperium. An act so heroic that if it can be attained again would help atone for the sin of the fall. So the Deathwing aren't just the guys that capture the Fallen, but now that they are painted white, they symbolise to the Inner Circle the chance to regain the valour that the Legion lost.

 

Of course that last part is entirely conjectural, but I think the first part of the post present a reasonable argument for a shift in background tone and character from Legion to Chapter.

 

Hmmm... The planet the DW saved from the Tyranids, wasn't it a DA recruiting world? I think it was, haven't read it for ages... So although the elements of sacrifice and bravery are still there, they are not altruistic but ultimately self-serving... They did not sacrificed themselves for the good of the Imperium but rather for the good of the Chapter. Would they do the same for any given world? No, that's not the DA way... If they deem the DW are too impotrtant to die for it they won't do it.

 

Recall Astelan's comment (in "Call of the Lion" was it?) that said he had a conflict with the Lion regarding the protection of a city against Orks vs. winning the campaign in a quicker manner with less casualties for the DAs? Astelan (later to become a Fallen) went for the protection of the city and the population instead of going for the Lion's plans to minimise DA casualties and win the campaign faster earning him the Lion's contempt. Protecting the people was a low priority for the DAs even when led by the Lion - the Emperor's will was all that mattered. Atoning for the Fall is a private business that the DAs have to conduct with the Emperor and deliverance (in DAs minds) will not be attained through doing benevolent acts towards the population of the Imperium, but by capturing all the Fallen.

 

At least this is what I'm getting so far... If the new Codex or a BL book gives the DAs a more humane attitude towards things it might change my perception - but so far everything points towards cold, calculative organization led by a ruthless Inner Circle... What can I say - I like it! :P

[EPK]

Dark Angels are knights and angels. As for the monk-style, I am all for nuking this really, yup this contradict the knight nature of the Dark Angels (knights don't wear robes ^_^ ) and depict the Dark Angels in the eyes of others as garbage : look, they have robes ! :P

 

Eh - You certinaly can be a Knight and you can be a monk and you can wear a robe. This is exactly the type of knight Phoebus referenced as the Dark Angels being based on.

[EPK]

...Atoning for the Fall is a private business that the DAs have to conduct with the Emperor and deliverance (in DAs minds) will not be attained through doing benevolent acts towards the population of the Imperium, but by capturing all the Fallen.

 

At least this is what I'm getting so far... If the new Codex or a BL book gives the DAs a more humane attitude towards things it might change my perception - but so far everything points towards cold, calculative organization led by a ruthless Inner Circle... What can I say - I like it! :P

 

I get what you are saying, but the sheer amount of warfare in a universe were there is only war surely has them engaging in many many battles that have nothing to do with hunting fallen or protecting a recruiting world. Certainly elements of companies are flung from one end of the galaxy to the next doing the typical protect the Imperium work, no? Units that have no idea about the Fallen even are. Space marines need a purpose after all - are they no taught their duty to the Imperium. I suppose some Chapters are more lax than others.

 

But you are probably right, they wouldn't needlessly sacrifice marines - they are the sons of the Lion after all one of the greatest tacticians. They would find a better way. It's debatable that the Plains World incident even happened and that it's actually just a parable.

 

We do have a couple instances in fluff where they do show what seems like comparison for mankind. In the 13th Black Crusade they pull away form the main offensive (a path that would eventually lead them to the Voice of the Emperor) to deal with Dark Eldar raiders harassing Medusa. Seems selfless, though it probably was a more calculated action. Another two instances come right from the DA codex regarding the Consecrators. Their first noted appearance had them saving a ravaged Guard army by utterly destroying the enemy and later fighting with the DA in another campaign. We can only assume their attentions may have involved the Fallen but it is not written.

 

My point is, though the Fallen or a recruitment world may take priority, they still fight battles and die for the Imperium on a regular basis I would assume. The codex even remarks that they conduct war the same as they did in the past only with a few instances of them abandoning the Imperial forces.

[FerociousBeast]

Well, I suppose one counter argument to that is to suggest that the Dark Angels as they were and as they are are actually two very different beasts.

 

You could make that argument, and many have. But I don't think it's workable. Because for one, no other chapters/legions in the Horus Heresy novels have been depicted so drastically different from how they are "today" in the 41st millennium. Second, even within the Horus Heresy novels the Dark Angels' depictions have varied tremendously. And finally, you would still have a problem with theme confusion because there are many people who read ADB's take on the Dark Angels and prefer that to the traditional take, and that preference informs their expectations of the Dark Angels of the 40,000 as well. They will either be disappointed that the knightly emphasis is gone or they will ignore that it's gone and contribute to the ongoing confusion.

[Gillyfish]

Very true.

 

no other chapters/legions in the Horus Heresy novels have been depicted so drastically different from how they are "today" in the 41st millennium.

 

On the other hand, you could put forward an argument that no other loyalist Legion experienced a traumatic episode of this nature, causing them to question who they are and what made them fall, resulting in a determination to atone for it. The BAs were traumatised by the nature of Sanguinius' death, so why should the DA not be equally (if not more) traumatised by the apparent loss of their homeworld, primarch and many of their 'kin' at their own hands, led by one of the legends of your Legion? The fact that trauma manifests differently probably fairly represents the different natures of the two Legions.

 

I largely agree about the depictions in the stories though. The Dark Angels always seemed knightly to me, back before robes were introduced, even when the native american aspects were around. They still came across as dark and secretive. The whispered rumours about the fall made them seemed damaged, tragic heroes., which appealed to me as a young teenager and actually ties in with some of the Arthurian myths and tales.

 

The Arthurian aspect of course isn't inconsistent with monasticism, although priestly (rather than warrior) robes may be going too far in one direction.

 

They did not sacrificed themselves for the good of the Imperium but rather for the good of the Chapter. Would they do the same for any given world? No, that's not the DA way

 

Yes, that's true and it did occur to me as I was typing. I think I probably overstated the case. Perhaps it would have been better to state that the Plains World incident was an act of exceptional valour (as signified by the repainting of the Deathwing's armour from black to white). That's quite interesting to me (note that I am not necessarily accepting the 4th ed ret-con of the background to turn the Plains World Incident into a parable). It's quite a big thing to repaint the entire company a new colour, especially when that company is primarily concerned with hunting the Fallen. Yes, it was a great victory, but surely it must signify something more to warrant the change made as a result. Maybe that thing is hope for the Chapter, hope that it can regain the status it believes it has lost? Either that, or they all believe they are dead men walking, which would be a strange thing to do!

[FerociousBeast]

I think some of us (including myself) may need to re-read the Plains World story if we're going to discuss it so heavily :)

 

There were ~30 terminators involved in that incident, though only a handful survived to the end. 5, I think. The story begins with the Deathwing landing on the world to either investigate its "radio silence" or do some recruiting, I can't remember which. Anyway, they soon find that all is not as it should be. Since all of the Dark Angels hailed from this world originally, they decide unilaterally, without the Dark Angel Chapter's approval, to save their people from the Genestealer infestation, though they know they will likely perish in the attempt. Hence re-coloring their armor white to signify that they are dead men walking, a tradition of the people that shows that they are acting not as Dark Angels but as Plainsmen. Against all odds, and with a lot of help from their Librarian, whose name when he was still a Plainsman was Two Heads Talking, the Deathwing destroy the Genestealers, the Hybrids, and their Patriarch. Only a few survive, but rather than return to the Dark Angels, these five remove their armor and reintegrate themselves into the Plains World tribal system in order to reteach their people how to be the people they once were.

 

Years later the Deathwing returns to the world and finds the five survivors ruling the tribesmen, and, in fact, directing the tribes in their wars with each other. Because to be a man of the Plains World is to be at war with your neighbors.

 

So the Plains World incident, besides being an awesome story, shows Dark Angels turning their back on their chapter for the good of their former people. Maybe not strictly out of an unbiased concern for the lives of Imperial citizens, but certainly not out of any kind of desire to advance the agenda of the Dark Angels.

 

Seen in this light, the white of the Deathwing's armor perhaps signifies not some kind of quest for purity by eradicating the Fallen, but maybe a reminder to the Dark Angels that they are more than just hunters of the Fallen. That their roots lie with humanity and they must never forget this, even as they pursue their ends with abominable means.

[con-fusion]

Threads like this are what make the DA so interesting. It made me go back to the theme document and interpretations we put together as part of Project:Unforgiven. I honestly think that no other smace marine legion/chapter means so many different things to so many people, even its closest adherents.

 

I would argue that the confusion really stems from from where each of us goes when we move from data to speculation. How we each answer some core questions impacts the themes we gravitate towards and the themes we reject as being relics of the RT/2nd edition past.

 

For me, these questions include, but are certainly not limited to, the following:

 

Are the DA chapters truly a legion in 40k?

 

What is the role of the Inner Circle, and are there multiple layers? If so, how do these layers work across chapters/battle companies (for those who believe the DA are a legion still)?

 

What are the Watchers, what are their goals, and how do they relate to the DA?

 

What is Cypher up to?

 

Etc.

 

We discussed these core questions in Project:Unforgiven in depth before the project moved on to list building, and where people came out on these questions really impacted how they interpreted the themes document (particularly the themes on which they placed emphasis).

[Bryan Blaire]

Con-fusion, I agree 100%. I think personally that's why the DA are so interesting, but that also causes a lot of consternation to others when you try to interact as fellow DA players, because they don't all answer the questions the same way, so sometimes when the different views can't be rectified it just devolves. Really, no one can say 100% they are the right way to think about something because GW hasn't been fully specific. In the end, it ends up a big Circle, and maybe even circles within circles. :yes:

 

~whacks CPT Semper sneaky-like with the tomahawk~

[Cactus]

Wow, lots of activity here while I was at work.

 

I just think it just sets up such a juicy conflict within the Chapter that goes beyond the whole Fallen thing if we accept those differences. The Fallen, you see, are a plot device that works only for about 10-12% of the Chapter. But if the other 88-90% are solemn, stoic, monastic knights of a noble demeanor (instead of cold and remorseless) and they suddenly have their world turned upside down when their Master, Interrogator Chaplain, or Supreme Grand Master orders them to abandon an Imperial position (leaving hundreds of thousands or even millions to die horribly!) for reasons they can't even be told... That's just such a powerful theme in my opinion! Can you imagine what that would do to a Uriel Ventris?

 

The theme is defined by the leadership. Yes the average DA marine might be, as you say, solemn, stoic, monastic knight of a noble demeanor but is ultimately irrelevant. You could be describing a Marine of any Codex Chapter. That’s not the reason that you or I or anyone is attracted to the DAs. The DAs are all about the Fallen, Interrogator Chaplains, secrets and Circles – and yes that’s only the top 15% of the Chapter. And it could have been even less – say the 5% of the Chapter – I doesn’t matter, they are the ones that make DAs who they are from an out-of-Universe perspective.

 

Chapters gain their individuality (apart from the visual part of course) based on two major attributes: genetics and/or culture. Given that DAs do not have any genetic deviance (like BAs or even SWs) the core of what makes them different is the “cultural” differences. And, as in any organization be it military, intelligence or even corporate, the culture is defned by the high echelons – not the rank and file (who seek to emulate their superiors in becoming integral part of the organization). And so it is the case for Space Marine Chapters. Enter the Inner Circle!

 

What I’m saying is that although I agree with you when you say the odd DA marine could be a solemn, noble monastic knight, this is not who I was referring to when I said that DAs are cold and remorseless. I meant that for those that make the DAs what they are, the ones that matter, the ones that create the theme - the ones that made us choose to play DAs to begin with – not the ones that if you paint them blue are as good as UMs…

 

I disagree a little with you here Captain Semper. I agree that Luther's betrayal and everything that stems from that is their most significant defining feature and that this can only be shown in a minority of the chapter, those at the top. However I do still want to know about the rank and file Battle Brothers. I'm sure they don't speak in such a pompous manner as the Ultramarines, have a more strict heirarchy than the Space Wolves, aren't as in love with bionics as the Iron Hands and certainly aren't as compassionate as the Lamenters. So what are they like? They're extremely tenacious and loyal to their chapter above all else. Yes, they're space marines and have been through the same 'defenders of humanity' indoctrination as any other chapter and don't have any interesting genetic deviancies which can make them seem like green Ultramarines. However that unflawed gene-seed is interesting in itself - they're very close in nature to their primarch so I expect the Lion's character to be reflected in the chapter's.

 

Linking this back to the original topic, it's these aspects that I want to see translated to the battlefield. I find this more interesting than some fine grained distinctions between characters in different circles, and waaaaay more appealing than a 'hunt the Fallen' special rule. A scenario would be cool, but the majority of the Dark Angels' battles don't concern that and, as the good captain has shown, it's very well shown in both the background and rules for the higher echelons.

 

FerociousBeast, that's an excellent summary of Deathwing. :P

[Gillyfish]

Seen in this light, the white of the Deathwing's armor perhaps signifies not some kind of quest for purity by eradicating the Fallen, but maybe a reminder to the Dark Angels that they are more than just hunters of the Fallen. That their roots lie with humanity and they must never forget this, even as they pursue their ends with abominable means.

 

Yes! You put that far more eloquently than I could - that's essentially what I think I was trying to get at when I wrote my first post. I admit, it's been a while since I read it, but it always struck me as intriguing that the event would have such an impact on the Chapter.

[alphariusomegon20]

If you look at the back story of how the Legions were created, you quickly find out that EVERY Legion received recruits from Earth, including the Dark Angels. This is probably where the Native American influence came from, as knights have not existed on Earth since the 1500's. We're now in the 41st millennium. Native Americans are very good at keeping their culture and rituals alive in some form, as evidenced by R/L instances, even to this day.

 

Most likely what happened was the Dark Angels from Earth had adopted Native American practices and symbolism prior to being united with their brothers on Caliban, who had gone the monastic knight route of the Order. When they merged, they tried to integrate the Native American ritual of wearing feathers into combat into the Dark Angels as a whole, and in the end, they were allowed to do so within only the Deathwing itself, as a compromise.

[Brother Tyler]

No, the Native American influence came from one of the worlds from which the Dark Angels recruited for a time. This was described in the short story/novella "Deathwing."

 

The most important thing to remember here, though, is that the Chapter recruits from a world for awhile and then moves on. So the Chapter's culture has been subjected to any number of external cultures over the millennia. The Plains World was just one in a long series. The Native American influences of that world do not define the Chapter, and other than the white armour of the Deathwing and the occasional feather are simply nice little add-ons. The impact of the Plains World appears to be largely limited to the Deathwing and is less a recognition of the Plains World and its culture and is much more a remembrance of some Dark Angels from that world. It's a fine distinction. Other members of the Chapter have been drawn from any number of other worlds and have, doubtless, left some small mark upon the Chapter as a whole.

[Dogbreath99]

Well technically the Dark Angels are over 10,000 years old so there are going to be a lot of intermixing of cultures but from what I remember from the old codices and the Black Library books on the Dark Angels it all seems to mix fairly well. Here is what I remember so please correct me if im wrong.

The Order that Lion Eljohnson was a part of on old Caliban was somewhat like a fraternity of Knights who were protecting the people of Caliban from the monsters and beats that roamed the lands. They wore robes and were educated in both arms and tactics so for a planet that was "feudal" its makes sense that they were warrior monks. So when the first legion arrived on Caliban they were already "knights" to the Emperor just like all the space marines so they fit in very well.

From what I remember about the Native American Indians motif came after Caliban was destroyed, since they couldn't recruit from their homeworld they started to recruit from different planets. The people of these planets were plains people so they used feathers and other tribe aspects to decorate themselves, I think it was the story "Deathwing" when the Terminators arrived on the plains world to recruit it was overrun by genestealers. They knew they were going to die so they reverted to their old native names instead of their DA ones. Then as a death ritual they painted their old black armor white with ash to show they were dead men already and went about cleansing them. So taking plains people and recruiting them into the chapter gives a little extra flair to their personality as a chapter.

The Hebrew daemon names fit in I mean they are Dark Angels. In Judeo/Christian lore daemons were angels that fell from grace so they are fallen angels or dark angels just kinda works well with the whole dark motif spin on the chapter they all aren't all daemon names Azrael the chapter master is the angel of death he is supposed to be a good angel, Ezekiel is a prophet from the old testament, so I think they just took very cool sounding names and implemented them in the chapter.

I got nothing on the Freemasons maybe just secret circles and different levels of memberships, but many societies have that but maybe not so anal about who knows.

As for the torture aspect well they are hunting down the betrayers of their chapter and their brotherhood, if you want information on where to find out where others you are hunting can be found well ya gotta get rough with em. Cant make an omelete without breaking some eggs, cant find the fallen without cracking some skulls. They deserve it anyway.

Well thats just my 2 cents on how all the cultural aspects of the Angels fit together I think its pretty cool we have a lot of different aspects to our chapter makes for some fun play and good story telling.

[Aleax]

Hi.

 

Hum, at the risk to shock the Lucifer fans right in these boards, Lucifer is a goat. So yeah, Lucifer has little to do with the primarch, and I would thus venture to say little to do with the Dark Angels of Lion'el Jonson - so there's your confusion.

What are you talking about?

 

1) No one mentioned Lucifer until you, so there was no implication of confusion until you made it. What was mentioned was Hebrew demons, which is what the names Belial and Asmodai allude to. Azrael isn't necessarily a demon, but in some texts is the Angel of Death.

 

2) A goat? What are you talking about? This one is going to be really hard to debate without violating the religion rules on the board, but suffice it to say that only more modern depictions of the Devil/Satan utilize the satyr depiction (a half-goat), old Hebrew/Jewish information doesn't actually corroborate that depiction (actually, there's not a lot of description of him other than being "the most brilliant and beautiful of all the angels").

 

Edit: BTW, I wouldn't agree that the Lion was an angel. So not everyone will agree. He is the last true Beast of Caliban, though he shows his nobility in keeping it on a very tight leash.

Hum no, I am talking fine thanks. Now my turn. What are you talking about? Newsflash, Dark Angels Masters as of now have all devil names. Master Gabriel was killed by Jervis Johnson recently, and was replaced by Belial, the name of a (supposely) archdemon (and former Master of the 3rd company). Yup, Jervis even killed the only guy which didn't got a devil name around, so that it makes the things even more characterful. See the trend? :P

 

Your army is a Lucifer-base chapter ie "Dark" Angels since 2nd edition. For your information : 40K references

No, I was not talking about Luther, Gillyfish. :)

 

So.......my points above remain. Lion'el Jonson =/= Lucifer. IMO, there is a contradiction, and this is the only one I see. ^_^ Also, I am not talking about the religious side of the thing, this is against the forum rules and I don't want to anyways. Only about the choices of GW with the current Dark Angels: the names they did chose to fit Dark Angels, and the Dark Angels specific models ie Asmodai, pretty much modelled as a devil...

 

Cheers.