Space Wolves during the HH

[elithren]

After reading Fear to tread (Blood angel book for HH), we see that Chaos, and Horus, were trying convert everyone to their side against the Emperor.

Sanguinious, possibly the best primarch overall as far as skill, charima, and ability to rule second to Horus (Horus says he was better them him in the Horus Rising serious when he is dying). It is also shown how devote Sanguinious was to the Allfather, and yet they tried to turn him and his legion over to khorne and against the Imperium. There are other instances of other primarchs being tempted, such as Ferrus Manus, but there is nothing for Lemon Russ.

My question to put to the Rout, why is it they didn't even consider tempting Lemon Russ or the Space Wolves to turn to Chaos and go against the Imperium?

 

PS, I have my own ideas and will contribute to the discussion as it progresses but I want your guys' take on it, and possibly a reference in the fluff that covers it.

[Khine]

After reading Fear to tread (Blood angel book for HH)

, we see that Chaos, and Horus, were trying convert everyone to their side against the Emperor. Sanguinious, possibly the best primarch overall as far as skill, charima, and ability to rule second to Horus (Horus says he was better them him in the Horus Rising serious when he is dying). It is also shown how devote Sanguinious was to the Allfather, and yet they tried to turn him and his legion over to khorne and against the Imperium. There are other instances of other primarchs being tempted, such as Ferrus Manus, but there is nothing for Lemon Russ. My question to put to the Rout, why is it they didn't even consider tempting Lemon Russ or the Space Wolves to turn to Chaos and go against the Imperium?

 

PS, I have my own ideas and will contribute to the discussion as it progresses but I want your guys' take on it, and possibly a reference in the fluff that covers it.

*editted to include spoiler tags

 

>.< Dude put your shizz in spoilers. Not many people have had a chance to read the book since it only came out on Saturday. or Saturday week.

[Arez]

Actually alot of that info was in the books before(minus the sang going khorne)

 

OP:If they tried to bring the Wolves to chaos and we said no who ever tried would be dead then their legion destroyed.I dont think anyone would take the risk.

[elithren]

Sorry Khine, I, uh, dont know how to put in the spoiler bar........

 

Edit: figured it out.

[Evilmerlin]

And it's LemAn Russ...not lemon...our primarch is not named after a fruit...

 

But yeah, I think the HH would have turned out very differently if somebody, probably word bearers, tried to turn the Wolves and failed. The Wolves would just go on murderous rampage through the traitor legions.

[TrentL]

Maybe it has to do with how the wolves dealt with the Thousand Sons?

[Loki-LaughingDeath]

Leman Russ was famous for 2 things, the brutality of his Legion, and his Loyalty to the Allfather. We get the dirty, nasty jobs that nobody else would do because.... we will do it PERIOD! We are called the emperor's dogs and worse by our own brothers and people we defend. Yet when the smelly hits the rotary implement we get called.... and we do our duty.

[-Volsung-]

Quite ironic how the chapter grew since its beginning. They went from being the Emperor's ruthless and savage lapdogs to basically being one of the most rebelliously loyal forces in the Imperium come the 41st millennium, without being any less ruthless orsavage.

 

Was this a product of Logan Grimnar's change of policies? Maybe a gradual evolution?

 

If the Inquisition or any higher up in the government of Imperium told the Space Wolves to wipe out a human colony, they would say F- ;) -k that, but would they still do it if the Emperor said it?

 

EDIT- Leman-ade. It'll put hair on your hair.

[Loki-LaughingDeath]

Need you ask?

[-Volsung-]

Hmm, no, I don't think they would. I think if such an order came from the Emperor in the 41st millenium, I think they would disobey it too.

 

Time changes (and times change), and probably the Chapter has changed much since the "Age of Emperor" or w/e it's called. Maybe that's why the Inquisition is actually so wary of the Wolves. They might have grown so independent they might reject the Emperor too if he does something they feel betrays the citizens of the Imperium.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Was this a product of Logan Grimnar's change of policies? Maybe a gradual evolution?

 

I believe the changed belief structure of the Wolves is a product of centuries of war and indifference from the Imperium, rather than a product of Grimnar's leadership (who upholds the beliefs of the Chapter admirably)

 

WLK

[DIDM]

have you even seen a dog turn on it's master?

 

they turn on kids and women usually, but not the man of the house, AKA the pack leader

 

 

the Wolves are The Emperor's guard dogs, they would have killed anyone suggesting they turn on their master

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

have you even seen a dog turn on it's master?

 

they turn on kids and women usually, but not the man of the house, AKA the pack leader

 

 

the Wolves are The Emperor's guard dogs, they would have killed anyone suggesting they turn on their master

 

i said something simular to this earlier tonight, post 84: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...75&start=75

 

WLK

[-Volsung-]

This reminds me of Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels when the dog Gaspode commented that all dogs have some wolf inside of them, wanting to break free of the domestication but not capable of doing it due to centuries of genetic breeding and a lifetime of behavioral conditioning.

 

Maybe this could be the case with the Space Wolves:

 

As warriors, they followed Russ as the alpha male. When the emperor came around, he conditioned Russ and his men to become dogs. So the emperor became the alpha. Lapdogs, perhaps, but perhaps guard hounds, watch dogs meant to keep other organizations in check in the imperium, these probably being the other legions rather than any organization. As they say, a Legion designed to destroy other legions.

 

Then, sh*-t hits the fan, all the legions are smashed, and the Emperor is gone, and Russ is gone too, and now the Wolves are left in independent solitude, confused, bitter, without guidance. Probably Bjorn, the first Jarl, shows signs of the dog abandoned by his master. Then his children and successor slowly grow, maybe due to disillusionment as Kieran stated, into the heroes they are now. No one is there to tell them what to do, so they learn to take care of themselves. No one tells them how they should do their job, so they determine their own way of doing it (doing what they feel is right rather than doing what others feel is right).

 

The other primarchs no doubt tried to get them to follow the codex, but a dog who lost its master and is so fierce as these wolves would probably give them the middle digit. And so they become truly independent Wolves, whose independence rather than orthodoxy make them better and greater protectors than they any other force.

 

The original position of watchdog has been seized by the Inquisition, and they do a horrible mess of the job. The Space Wolves, being that former organization designed to destroy other organization, can only be appalled at how their former role is now being carried out with such cold-hearted ruthlessness. So as the common argument between Inquisitor and Wolf goes: "You call this protecting the Imperium?? This is how you protect the Imperium." "No this is how." "No." and so on.

 

Perhaps that is the case?

[Loki-LaughingDeath]

Volsung you are forgetting one small point, Russ trained his legion to be ruthless, but honest. That honesty is still a hallmark of the Wolves and what separates them from most of the Imperium. I don't think for a second they would disobey an order from the Allfather, while at the same time they would tell an Inquisitor to take a stroll out the airlock without a vacuum suit. The emperor never committed massacres against humans without a cause. The wolves know this and respect that honesty. They would know that they aren't killing just to kill that there is a purpose for it and a cause behind it.

 

This is what makes them so feared in the Heresy.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Volsung you are forgetting one small point, Russ trained his legion to be ruthless, but honest. That honesty is still a hallmark of the Wolves and what separates them from most of the Imperium. I don't think for a second they would disobey an order from the Allfather, while at the same time they would tell an Inquisitor to take a stroll out the airlock without a vacuum suit. The emperor never committed massacres against humans without a cause. The wolves know this and respect that honesty. They would know that they aren't killing just to kill that there is a purpose for it and a cause behind it.

 

This is what makes them so feared in the Heresy.

 

to play the devil's advocate, how honest was wyrdmake?

 

the mentality of the 30k Wolves and 40k Wolves is drastically different, as the galaxy was drastically different. the Wolves were ready to become what the Imperium needed. when they needed to bring death, they brought it in spades. When life is needed as it currently is, then they fight to protect that.

 

WLK

[-Volsung-]

On a side note, fascinating fluff.

 

Damn... I chose the right chapter.

[Grey Mage]

This reminds me of Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels when the dog Gaspode commented that all dogs have some wolf inside of them, wanting to break free of the domestication but not capable of doing it due to centuries of genetic breeding and a lifetime of behavioral conditioning.

 

Maybe this could be the case with the Space Wolves:

 

As warriors, they followed Russ as the alpha male. When the emperor came around, he conditioned Russ and his men to become dogs. So the emperor became the alpha. Lapdogs, perhaps, but perhaps guard hounds, watch dogs meant to keep other organizations in check in the imperium, these probably being the other legions rather than any organization. As they say, a Legion designed to destroy other legions.

 

Then, sh*-t hits the fan, all the legions are smashed, and the Emperor is gone, and Russ is gone too, and now the Wolves are left in independent solitude, confused, bitter, without guidance. Probably Bjorn, the first Jarl, shows signs of the dog abandoned by his master. Then his children and successor slowly grow, maybe due to disillusionment as Kieran stated, into the heroes they are now. No one is there to tell them what to do, so they learn to take care of themselves. No one tells them how they should do their job, so they determine their own way of doing it (doing what they feel is right rather than doing what others feel is right).

 

The other primarchs no doubt tried to get them to follow the codex, but a dog who lost its master and is so fierce as these wolves would probably give them the middle digit. And so they become truly independent Wolves, whose independence rather than orthodoxy make them better and greater protectors than they any other force.

 

The original position of watchdog has been seized by the Inquisition, and they do a horrible mess of the job. The Space Wolves, being that former organization designed to destroy other organization, can only be appalled at how their former role is now being carried out with such cold-hearted ruthlessness. So as the common argument between Inquisitor and Wolf goes: "You call this protecting the Imperium?? This is how you protect the Imperium." "No this is how." "No." and so on.

 

Perhaps that is the case?

This is how I see it.

 

Though I also believe that should the emperor return the wolves would rally to him, quickly and with the force of a tsunami. All he have to do is show himself... they talk alot in the HH about how marines have bonds with each other, and strong bonds with those further up the chain... theyd know it in their reinforced bones, and no mistake.

 

The wolves are the way they are now because theyre doing the best they can to follow the last orders of their master- their alpha- and no one else has ever, or probly could ever, take charge of their pack.

 

As for the comment on honesty- half, if not more, or warfare is deception. The hunting pack of wolves can make three or four throats sound like dozens, and they distract their prey before pouncing from other directions.... there is no reason why any warrior, let alone one who emulates hunting wolves, wouldnt be able to use a bit of trickery. Vikings, the other main source of inspiration for the SW are also known for their love of riddles, tricks, and games. Does this mean that an oath isnt solidly and bone deeply binding? Not in the least. It means that ones enemies- or anyone who isnt ones ally at the least- doesnt have the right to expect anything from you other than the bit of your blade. Being honestly natured doesnt make one stupid either.

[elithren]

My thinking of it is based off alot of the info we dont know. For whatever reason, 2 legions were purged/abolished/absorbed for unknown reasons, along with 2 dead primarchs. We know the role the Wolves filled during the Great Crusade and from one of the HH books, Leman Russ is recorded as saying he didn't want to lose any more brothers ( believe he said remove/kill anymore but cant find direct quote). So, based on the history of the legion and how they would have already removed 2 full legions, primarchs included, Horus decided to steer clear of him and try to keep him out of the heresy until the Allfather was gone and his powerbase established. Then we would have been able to bring the might of several legions against the lone wolves. But it was due to Leman Russ the heresy ended sooner then anticipated as Horus got scared and rushed his plans upon knowing the Space Wolves were coming to Terra. He didn't have the resources to split and fight on two fronts, and he knew he would need overwhelming force to stop the Wolves, but that would have left the other front weak so the Allfather could have broken through there.

[Grimtooth]

Wrapping in tags the main topic;

 

 

 

People forget that Horus was little more then a meat puppet for Chaos. Readers of Prospero Burns are privy to the conversation of the Chaos entity responsible for setting up the destruction of Prospero and the Thousand Sons Legion. IIRC, he acknowledges that both Legions involved were the only genuine threats to the plans of Chaos, hence the attempt to have them remove eachother as threats to those plans.

 

So it isn't so much as why didn't Horus try to turn the Wolves as it is that Horus' puppet master had other plans for the Wolves in the grand scheme of the heresy

 

 

As to the second topic brought up, the Wolves of this generation or no different then those that walked with Russ. The Fenrisian culture has not changed since Russ first became primarch of the 6th Legion. He even went so far as to forbid the Terran terra formers from making Fenris as more hospitable planet. That culture, that mindset of pragmatism, grimdark, survival, and humanity has been a mainstay of the Fenrisians and is carried over and even fostered more greatly when they become SW. Their methodologies regarding eveything from survival, combat, and humanity have remained unchaged for over 10k years and as true realists during these troubled times in the Warhammer 40k universe, it continues to serve them.

[Loki-LaughingDeath]

Ahh the old adage of deception in warfare.... The trick of it isn't the deception it's getting in your opponents head and having him so twisted in his own logic and perceptions that when you punch his ticket there is nothing for you to do but move on to the next target.

 

A good example of this is in Eaters of the Dead (the book's original title, I refuse to recognize that hollywoodized garbage) when the prince is plotting and scheming and Bulveye had one of his men get into a duel and off the prince's best fighter, letting him know that if you tangle with us the only thing waiting for you are the crows and carrion eaters.

 

Yes the current Wolves revere HUMAN life and in the current setting that is not a bad thing, just not exactly what Russ intended for his Legion.

 

As for Wyrdmake.... WLK, that was one of the best written villains I have come across, at least that is how I perceived him. The Vylka Fenryka is right with how they feel about knowledge, and he went swan diving from the peak of the Fang.

 

Back to the original point, there are many ways for Chaos to gain a foothold to corrupt a person. I think that Russ probably was THE most resistant to chaos of the primarchs. He knew and accepted his wyrd and it was enough for him. I need to think about how to phrase it better.

[-Volsung-]

It's like the Rorscharch effect from Watchmen. Some heroes, no matter how ruthless or brutal they are in trying to do and uphold what they feel is right and fair, will not compromise in the face of a tempting offer.

 

Whether it's the lesser of two evils or a facade of it, so long as it involves them breaking some core principle they live and die by, they're not gonna budge.

 

If I were Horus, I'd seek out the more "clever" primarchs, those who might just be calculating enough to consider a greater good, or be swayed to believe a vision of it.

 

These might be among those more likely to be swayed, like perhaps the romantic ("Look... wouldn't you want a beautiful galaxy? Without war? Without bloodshed. Fight with me, and we can have that."), the fanatic ("Look the Emperor doesn't value your fervor. Come with me, and I will reward your faith and your loyalty."), the misunderstood ("Look, the Emperor punishes you for this, yet I know you were trying to do good. The Emperor is blind. Follow me, I understand you."), the outcasted and the insecure ("Look how your Legion is treated. Look how the Emperor praises Jonson and Sanguinius. You deserve better. I see your true strength.")

 

EDIT- Oh and the ignorant, as much Imperial litanies seem to imply are safe from heresy. From the Khmer Rouge to the Nazi to the Jacobins. The simpleton Ogryn who joins a traitor guard unit and suddenly mutates after a month and has five eyeballs because "Errr... I was jus' followin' der orders..." That one is pretty easy to get on your side too, if you're as charismatic as Horus.

 

These guys are the ones that if I were Horus I would try to recruit, and try to make them feel like they are appreciated. These and, of course, those whom the Emperor might have slighted or might have unintentionally offended in some ways, which could have lead to them being one of the above categories.

 

The insane, the psychotic, and the sadistic, those guys are easy. Those guys can be flipped, no problem, but then, they might flip on you too, so you can't really depend on those ones for loyalty. "Hey... you want blood? Join me, we fight tomorrow. Here's some guns." "Hey! You want slaves to torture? Join me, we'll round some up." Better yet: "Hey? You need cash? Here, and bring your bolter. Next payment in a week."

 

Those last few primarchs are, for all intents and purpose, mercenaries at best and expected traitors at worse. You use them, you kill them when you're done, or let them run off if they pose no threat. If you can still afford them, you keep paying them if it's still good business. However, for a strong rebellion and a strong movement, you need the idealists, the ones who fight for some greater, even sicker purpose, something that boils in their heart to make them take your side because they know if you win, they believe what they want with all their hearts, they will receive.

 

Russ, the beat to sh-t grizzled cop with the musty trenchcoat and his badge in the gutter where he threw it a few hours ago, the one who actually protects and serves the people he swore to defend without regards of laws or redtapes or politics standing in his way, that's the guy you're never gonna approach with anything. That's the guy you have on your coup d'etat purge list from day one, or the one you forget about and ignore until he rolls on you with vigilante justice, but Horus is not that dumb.

[space wolf]

The problem with that, is ultimately why Horus failed. He was a strategic/tactical genius, and an idiot to boot. He was being used, and as we all know, the powers of chaos have a way of defeating themselves. There were a million things Horus could have done to turn the tide more in his favor, but it seemed, unless I'm missing something, he seized the first opportunity that COULD realistically provide victory, no one that WOULD. Instead of setting up his knights and pawns to provide checkmate in three moves, he used his bishops to put the king in check in two.

[Bearingtheword]

This is a fascinating topic, and I find my thoughts parallel those of Volsung.

 

But I do vaguely recall a tale regarding the Wolves in one of the HH anthologies

where they helped a discovered, yet not yet Imperial world, fight off a Dark Eldar incursion and were then forced to annihilate the population because they would not submit to Imperial authority because they had just fought and earned their freedom from the Dark Eldar.

So I see a stark difference between the 30k and 40k wolves. Don't get me wrong, I see a lot of similarities too, but in the case of protecting human life even when ordered to destroy it, there is a stark contrast here. Perhaps it had to do with who was commanding them to do so, and if I do recall correctly they were not happy to be doing so, so that seed/need/drive was already lingering under the surface but was over-ridden by orders from their alpha.

 

 

As for Wyrdmake being a villain, I didn't see that, but I'll reread it and see if I get that impression. Maybe you could expand on why you think that, Loki-Laughing Death?

 

I do think that Horus, and those controlling him, wanted to see the Sons and Wolves destroy one another, but I think that they underestimated both the savagery of the Wolves and the remorse and self-control of Magnus at that time. I also have to wonder if there is something within the gene code of the Wolves or, more likely, within the Canis Helix that is not utterly anathema to the warp. Hence explaining why they avoided the attempt at corrupting them.

 

Anyhow, just a few random thoughts.....

 

~BtW

[Loki-LaughingDeath]

While I would love to expand in the forum I don't think that it would be fair to those who have not read the book. Let's just say that to my perspective the traitor spit on all the traditions of the Wolves over greed. Hell

even Bjorn stated that if he had found out the Tempering was finished along with Wyrdmake.

 

 

Thanks Volsung that is about what I wanted to say. And your ideas on the conversion process are spot on.